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Thread: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: Elizabeth Thomas
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 9:21AM
Subject: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
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Does anyone know the correct Unicode or HTML entity for the negative sign (e.g., to represent the number negative 19)? The context is a negative number used in a sentence; itâs not in a mathematical expression or equation.
I know I could use the hyphen, but that will be ignored by many technologies because itâs wrong and thatâs not what hyphens are for. Consequently, I donât think it will be clear to some people that the number is negative.
I could use Unicode entity 2212, but that looks super weird and Iâm not sure thatâs correct because thatâs for the minus operator.
Is there another entity I can use that will be read correctly by AT like a screen reader? Or is the Unicode entity 2212 the correct character for this use case? Or Is hyphen minus (002D) the correct entity? (Iâm definitely not using the en dash, which is for ranges as it means âtoâ or âthroughâ).
Thanks in advance. Math accessibility is hard (but fun). ;)
-Elizabeth Thomas
Digital Accessibility Specialist, State of NJ
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 9:29AM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
← Previous message | Next message →
On 14/03/2023 15:21, Elizabeth Thomas wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the correct Unicode or HTML entity for the negative sign (e.g., to represent the number negative 19)? The context is a negative number used in a sentence; itâs not in a mathematical expression or equation.
> I know I could use the hyphen, but that will be ignored by many technologies because itâs wrong and thatâs not what hyphens are for. Consequently, I donât think it will be clear to some people that the number is negative.
> I could use Unicode entity 2212, but that looks super weird and Iâm not sure thatâs correct because thatâs for the minus operator.
> Is there another entity I can use that will be read correctly by AT like a screen reader? Or is the Unicode entity 2212 the correct character for this use case? Or Is hyphen minus (002D) the correct entity? (Iâm definitely not using the en dash, which is for ranges as it means âtoâ or âthroughâ).
In theory, the regular "-" (U+002D, hyphen-minus) is perfectly valid as
a negative/minus sign. However, screen readers will often treat this as
just a hyphen, and not announce it (the same way they don't announce
general punctuation, unless explicitly set to do so), unless their
heuristics kick in to instead treat it as a minus sign.
https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+002D
You could indeed try "â" (U+2212 minus sign), which also maps to −
HTML entity, but suggest testing in AT if this has the desired effect.
https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+2212
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
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twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
From: David Farough
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 10:10AM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
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I will be interested to hear what you determine for this situation.
There is a date and number processing option in jaws that may deal with this issue.
This is the description of the options available.
Unfortunately there is no mention for negative numbers.
Use this list to determine how numbers are read. Select Controlled by Synthesizer to have the current synthesizer determine how numbers are read. This is the default setting. Select Single Digits to read numbers as a series of single numbers. For example, "123" is read as one two three. Select Pairs to read numbers as a series of paired numbers. For example, "1050" is read as "ten fifty." If the number has an odd number of digits, JAWS reads the first digit as a single digit and pairs the rest. For example, "123" is read as "one twenty three." Select Full Numbers to always reads numbers as complete numbers. For example, "123" is read as "one hundred twenty three."
There is also a setting that can be used if numbers contain dashes.
Description:
When selected, numbers that contain dashes without spaces are read as individual digits. Telephone number formatting, where a dash is preceded by and followed by a digit, is an example of this type of number string. This check box is used in conjunction with the Number Processing combo box. This means that JAWS processes numbers based on the current selection in the Number Processing combo box. This check box is selected by default.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 11:30 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
On 14/03/2023 15:21, Elizabeth Thomas wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the correct Unicode or HTML entity for the negative sign (e.g., to represent the number negative 19)? The context is a negative number used in a sentence; itâs not in a mathematical expression or equation.
> I know I could use the hyphen, but that will be ignored by many technologies because itâs wrong and thatâs not what hyphens are for. Consequently, I donât think it will be clear to some people that the number is negative.
> I could use Unicode entity 2212, but that looks super weird and Iâm not sure thatâs correct because thatâs for the minus operator.
> Is there another entity I can use that will be read correctly by AT like a screen reader? Or is the Unicode entity 2212 the correct character for this use case? Or Is hyphen minus (002D) the correct entity? (Iâm definitely not using the en dash, which is for ranges as it means âtoâ or âthroughâ).
In theory, the regular "-" (U+002D, hyphen-minus) is perfectly valid as
a negative/minus sign. However, screen readers will often treat this as
just a hyphen, and not announce it (the same way they don't announce
general punctuation, unless explicitly set to do so), unless their
heuristics kick in to instead treat it as a minus sign.
https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.compart.com%2Fen%2Funicode%2FU%2B002D&data%7C01%7Cdavid.farough%40cfp-psc.gc.ca%7Cf4cf4875afb94dc842ef08db24a0f164%7C961b30aad4394bc7b6749c4a389b0be3%7C0%7C0%7C638144045894235785%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdatavT4Ud4cwTcDZs8QhFQZO%2BnOvyMEt1z0CYpbsslu2m0%3D&reserved=0
You could indeed try "â" (U+2212 minus sign), which also maps to −
HTML entity, but suggest testing in AT if this has the desired effect.
https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.compart.com%2Fen%2Funicode%2FU%2B2212&data%7C01%7Cdavid.farough%40cfp-psc.gc.ca%7Cf4cf4875afb94dc842ef08db24a0f164%7C961b30aad4394bc7b6749c4a389b0be3%7C0%7C0%7C638144045894235785%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yeNmYQ5jgcD0lTL4TSarYddl5ODIWt7Fwm5F%2Be%2BtpBw%3D&reserved=0
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 11:07AM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
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If you have access to a refreshable braille device, test it there too. I
had a similar issue but can't remember if it was a negative number or a
degree symbol. Whichever one it was, while it visually looked correct, when
reading the character with braille it wasn't the right character.
Unfortunately, I don't recall what we ended up using that read correctly
with braille, announced correctly with the screen reader, and visually
looked correct. I only remember that I'm glad we had someone that could
read braille and pointed out we were using the wrong character.
From: Laura Roberts
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 11:54AM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
← Previous message | Next message →
There is − but will read as minus.
When I want it to read as negative, I use Aria hidden text and then alt
text.
Alternately, I suppose you could use the abbr title tag to do it, but I'm
not clear on the WCAG rules around which is best standards for that-
entities, Unicode, abbreviation titles, aria. (I specialize in pdf's).
Hopefully someone will weigh in because I'd like to know)
https://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_abbr.asp
On Tue, Mar 14, 2023, 11:21 AM Elizabeth Thomas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the correct Unicode or HTML entity for the negative sign
> (e.g., to represent the number negative 19)? The context is a negative
> number used in a sentence; itâs not in a mathematical expression or
> equation.
> I know I could use the hyphen, but that will be ignored by many
> technologies because itâs wrong and thatâs not what hyphens are for.
> Consequently, I donât think it will be clear to some people that the number
> is negative.
> I could use Unicode entity 2212, but that looks super weird and Iâm not
> sure thatâs correct because thatâs for the minus operator.
> Is there another entity I can use that will be read correctly by AT like a
> screen reader? Or is the Unicode entity 2212 the correct character for this
> use case? Or Is hyphen minus (002D) the correct entity? (Iâm definitely not
> using the en dash, which is for ranges as it means âtoâ or âthroughâ).
> Thanks in advance. Math accessibility is hard (but fun). ;)
> -Elizabeth Thomas
> Digital Accessibility Specialist, State of NJ
> > > > >
From: jeffgutsell@fuse.net
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 11:58AM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
← Previous message | Next message →
I just tried the Unicode math symbol −
Jaws speaks the following as "minus 100."
â100.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:07 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
If you have access to a refreshable braille device, test it there too. I had a similar issue but can't remember if it was a negative number or a degree symbol. Whichever one it was, while it visually looked correct, when reading the character with braille it wasn't the right character.
Unfortunately, I don't recall what we ended up using that read correctly with braille, announced correctly with the screen reader, and visually looked correct. I only remember that I'm glad we had someone that could read braille and pointed out we were using the wrong character.
From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Wed, Mar 15 2023 7:27PM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
← Previous message | Next message →
Here is a message that was on WEBAIM in 2018, the oldest message I have kept from the list, though now I never deal with math.
â
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Mohith BP < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] en-dash, dash and minus
> Date: July 30, 2018 at 4:50:49 AM EDT
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> Hi,
>
> Please use HTML math symbols.
> for minus it is one of the following:
> <span> − </span>
> or
> <span> −</span>
> or
> <span> − </span>
>
> Refer the complete HTML math reference below:
> https://www.w3schools.com/charsets/ref_utf_math.asp
>
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Mohith B. P.
> On 7/27/18, Isabel Holdsworth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Yet another niggly accessibility issue I could do with your thoughts on.
>>
>> I'm working on some eAssessment software that allows teachers to
>> upload maths questions and their pupils to answer them online.
>>
>> Some of the teachers are using the en-dash (â) character instead of
>> the minus (â) sign, because it's wider and easier to see. But we feel
>> that en-dash doesn't convey the subtraction operation to screenreader
>> users.
>>
>> Since there's no easy way to enter a minus sign using the keyboard,
>> we're trying to come up with a compromise that makes the content more
>> accessible.
>>
>> I think the dash (-) character is a good alternative, and it's widely
>> available and IMO widely understood to denote subtraction.
>>
>> What do you guys think?
>>
>> We really want to offer the best experience we can to kids sitting
>> tests using our software, so I'd appreciate your thoughts.
>>
>> Thanks as always, Lynn
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > Best wishes,
Jonathan Cohn
> On Mar 14, 2023, at 1:58 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>
> I just tried the Unicode math symbol −
> Jaws speaks the following as "minus 100."
> â100.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
> Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2023 1:07 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
>
> If you have access to a refreshable braille device, test it there too. I had a similar issue but can't remember if it was a negative number or a degree symbol. Whichever one it was, while it visually looked correct, when reading the character with braille it wasn't the right character.
> Unfortunately, I don't recall what we ended up using that read correctly with braille, announced correctly with the screen reader, and visually looked correct. I only remember that I'm glad we had someone that could read braille and pointed out we were using the wrong character.
> > > >
> > > >
From: Jeff Gutsell
Date: Thu, Mar 16 2023 6:29AM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
← Previous message | Next message →
I have read several explanations of windows, shortcut keys that are supposed to enable us to enter Unicode extended characters. I have never been able to get those shortcut keys to work. Does anybody else have any success with that?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 15, 2023, at 9:27 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Here is a message that was on WEBAIM in 2018, the oldest message I have kept from the list, though now I never deal with math.
>
> â
>
>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Mohith BP < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] en-dash, dash and minus
>> Date: July 30, 2018 at 4:50:49 AM EDT
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Please use HTML math symbols.
>> for minus it is one of the following:
>> <span> − </span>
>> or
>> <span> −</span>
>> or
>> <span> − </span>
>>
>> Refer the complete HTML math reference below:
>> https://www.w3schools.com/charsets/ref_utf_math.asp
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Mohith B. P.
>>> On 7/27/18, Isabel Holdsworth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Yet another niggly accessibility issue I could do with your thoughts on.
>>>
>>> I'm working on some eAssessment software that allows teachers to
>>> upload maths questions and their pupils to answer them online.
>>>
>>> Some of the teachers are using the en-dash (â) character instead of
>>> the minus (â) sign, because it's wider and easier to see. But we feel
>>> that en-dash doesn't convey the subtraction operation to screenreader
>>> users.
>>>
>>> Since there's no easy way to enter a minus sign using the keyboard,
>>> we're trying to come up with a compromise that makes the content more
>>> accessible.
>>>
>>> I think the dash (-) character is a good alternative, and it's widely
>>> available and IMO widely understood to denote subtraction.
>>>
>>> What do you guys think?
>>>
>>> We really want to offer the best experience we can to kids sitting
>>> tests using our software, so I'd appreciate your thoughts.
>>>
>>> Thanks as always, Lynn
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>
>
>> On Mar 14, 2023, at 1:
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Mar 16 2023 6:45AM
Subject: Re: Proper Unicode or html entity for negative sign
← Previous message | No next message
On 16/03/2023 12:29, Jeff Gutsell wrote:
> I have read several explanations of windows, shortcut keys that are supposed to enable us to enter Unicode extended characters. I have never been able to get those shortcut keys to work. Does anybody else have any success with that?
Depending how often you need them, it may be quicker/easier to just fire
up the Character Map application (should come as default in all Windows
versions) where you can find the specific character and copy it over.
If you have a numeric keypad, there's the infamous ALT-sequence ones,
which are cryptic, but if you use one particular small set of chars very
often, you build up muscle memory for them (e.g. ALT+0133 for the
ellipsis character â¦). press ALT, keep it pressed, and type in the
number sequence on the keypad (make sure NumLock is on).
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke