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Thread: recommendations for screen reader training?
Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)
From: Hatfield, Evan
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2024 12:00PM
Subject: recommendations for screen reader training?
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Hello, WebAIM Nation -
My colleagues and I work in online education at a college. We are interested in becoming proficient enough in the use of a screen reader - or screen readers -- to effectively review the accessibility of digital resources like Word documents, PDF's and pages in our learning management system. We have tried to use the built-in trainers that come with VoiceOver and Narrator, but without much luck. We're also not certain if those are the best tools to use.
We have three questions to start:
* Is there a screen reader - or screen readers - that we should focus on?
* Can you recommend training resources to help us develop proficiency?
* Are we thinking about this correctly?
Thanks for your help!
Evan
Evan Hatfield (he/him)
Instructional Support Specialist
Distance Education + DSPS
College of the Redwoods
707-476-4574
From: Hayman, Douglass
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2024 12:07PM
Subject: Re: - recommendations for screen reader training?
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I'd recommend using NVDA in Windows. While JAWS may dominate the market, they do place restrictions on using their screen reader for testing web sites. NVDA doesn't have such a restriction.
A few good resources are:
https://webaim.org/resources/shortcuts/nvda
https://dequeuniversity.com/screenreaders/nvda-keyboard-shortcuts
I always "warn" people to first know how to quit NVDA as it can be confusing to escape out of it when control has changed.
And finally, know that you won't be the same as a person who uses a screen reader full time. Those folks likely use screen readers better and differently than sighted users and they should be consulted as well along the "for us by us" way of doing things.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2024 12:18PM
Subject: Re: - recommendations for screen readertraining?
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I'm not sure about any restrictions for jaws testing web because I'm a jaws user and I do it regularly.
Once upon a time it was very expensive to purchase jaws but it's only about $100 a year now for the license so definitely a worthwhile business expense
And NVDA is also a very good tool to use.
But I definitely recommend consulting with regular screen reader users to assist in testing
Dean Vasile
617-799-1162
> On Mar 25, 2024, at 2:07 PM, Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I'd recommend using NVDA in Windows. While JAWS may dominate the market, they do place restrictions on using their screen reader for testing web sites. NVDA doesn't have such a restriction.
>
> A few good resources are:
>
> https://webaim.org/resources/shortcuts/nvda
>
> https://dequeuniversity.com/screenreaders/nvda-keyboard-shortcuts
>
> I always "warn" people to first know how to quit NVDA as it can be confusing to escape out of it when control has changed.
>
> And finally, know that you won't be the same as a person who uses a screen reader full time. Those folks likely use screen readers better and differently than sighted users and they should be consulted as well along the "for us by us" way of doing things.
>
> Doug Hayman
> IT Accessibility Coordinator
> Information Technology
> Olympic College
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> (360) 475-7632
>
>
>
>
From: Hayman, Douglass
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2024 12:45PM
Subject: Re: - recommendations for screenreadertraining?
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Dean,
Perhaps things changed. I thought that a few years ago they placed a restriction and people were supposed to buy a separate license to use JAWS in that manner. Looking online just now they offer JAWS inspect but that seems different from what I recall a few years back.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2024 1:06PM
Subject: Re: - recommendations forscreenreadertraining?
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JAWS has a 40-minute demo -- which some people have used for testing. This is what is not permitted by the JAWS license. If you pay the $100 per year, everything is fine.
JAWS inspect visually shows you, on the screen, what JAWS would be saying.
No matter the screen reader, the user must be proficient in its use. Unless you use it regularly, no one, sighted or blind is going to be any good at testing.
Dave
From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2024 1:28PM
Subject: - recommendationsforscreenreadertraining?
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That makes perfect sense.
I totally understand that
Dean Vasile
617-799-1162
> On Mar 25, 2024, at 3:07 PM, Andrews, David B (DEED) via WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> JAWS has a 40-minute demo -- which some people have used for testing. This is what is not permitted by the JAWS license. If you pay the $100 per year, everything is fine.
>
> JAWS inspect visually shows you, on the screen, what JAWS would be saying.
>
> No matter the screen reader, the user must be proficient in its use. Unless you use it regularly, no one, sighted or blind is going to be any good at testing.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Mon, Mar 25 2024 1:31PM
Subject: Re: - recommendations forscreenreadertraining?
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If you're paying the hundred dollars a year for the license to full license.
With your cited, or you are a blind screen reader user
You should have no issues using it for testing.
JAWS inspect may be a cheaper license that I am not sure of, but they don't want you using it on 40 minute mode, which is free.
Thank you very much. Have a great day.
Dean Vasile
617-799-1162
> On Mar 25, 2024, at 2:45 PM, Hayman, Douglass < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Dean,
>
> Perhaps things changed. I thought that a few years ago they placed a restriction and people were supposed to buy a separate license to use JAWS in that manner. Looking online just now they offer JAWS inspect but that seems different from what I recall a few years back.
>
> Doug Hayman
> IT Accessibility Coordinator
> Information Technology
> Olympic College
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> (360) 475-7632
>
>
>
>
From: tim.harshbarger
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2024 7:18AM
Subject: Re: - recommendationsforscreenreadertraining?
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I want to offer some general advice about screen reader testing.
You should think of screen reader testing like browser testing. The goal of browser testing generally is to determine if the site or application is working as expected. You don't conduct browser testing with the expectation that you will understand the user experience. The same is true about screen reader testing.
You should focus your screen reader testing on determining if the site, application, document, or whatever is working as expected. That does mean you need to learn about what the expectations are for accessibility. If you are wanting to understand the user experience of people using screen readers, you need to test involving people who use screen readers.
It will take time and effort to learn both how to use a screen reader and what those accessibility expectations are. However, I think you will end up with better results if you focus your screen reader testing on meeting accessibility requirements and then conduct user testing for understanding the user experience.
Another thing to keep in mind is that screen reader testing isn't just about screen readers. Many assistive technologies rely to some degree on the programmatic information provided by user interfaces. Screen readers differ in that they tend to rely more heavily on that programmatic information. It would be nice if you could test with all assistive technologies. However, if you cannot, testing with a screen reader (with an understanding of how other assistive technologies use that information) can sometimes help you find issues that might impact other assistive technologies as well.
When you start testing with a screen reader, be aware of the nature of screen readers. The primary intent of screen readers are to help people with disabilities access interface. Their primary intent is not for testing. This means that screen readers often will add features that are intended to help someone with a disability use a broken site or application. You want to be aware of this because you don't want the accessibility of your digital content to rely on these features. These features are never as good as just making the content accessible. These features can vary between screen readers which means one might have the feature and another one does not.
Thanks!
Tim
From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2024 7:54AM
Subject: -recommendationsforscreenreadertraining?
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Tim, that is excellent advice.
I just want to add a little bit more to it so people have better understanding.
Iâve been testing with my screen reader for a couple of years now and I find that using JAWS or NVDA the experience changes depending on the browser you are using on the website They say that NVDA works better with Firefox however Iâve noticed that some websites work better when you use chrome and NVDA on it and JAWS definitely works better with chrome
I actually have issues with both of them using Microsoft edge.
However, I test with that as well.
So keep all that information in mind when testing with a screen reader and as Tim recommends
Involve Actual screen reader users in your testing because they will have a completely different experience than a tester that only uses the screen reader for testing
Dean Vasile
617-799-1162
> On Mar 26, 2024, at 9:19 AM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>
> I want to offer some general advice about screen reader testing.
>
> You should think of screen reader testing like browser testing. The goal of browser testing generally is to determine if the site or application is working as expected. You don't conduct browser testing with the expectation that you will understand the user experience. The same is true about screen reader testing.
>
> You should focus your screen reader testing on determining if the site, application, document, or whatever is working as expected. That does mean you need to learn about what the expectations are for accessibility. If you are wanting to understand the user experience of people using screen readers, you need to test involving people who use screen readers.
>
> It will take time and effort to learn both how to use a screen reader and what those accessibility expectations are. However, I think you will end up with better results if you focus your screen reader testing on meeting accessibility requirements and then conduct user testing for understanding the user experience.
>
> Another thing to keep in mind is that screen reader testing isn't just about screen readers. Many assistive technologies rely to some degree on the programmatic information provided by user interfaces. Screen readers differ in that they tend to rely more heavily on that programmatic information. It would be nice if you could test with all assistive technologies. However, if you cannot, testing with a screen reader (with an understanding of how other assistive technologies use that information) can sometimes help you find issues that might impact other assistive technologies as well.
>
> When you start testing with a screen reader, be aware of the nature of screen readers. The primary intent of screen readers are to help people with disabilities access interface. Their primary intent is not for testing. This means that screen readers often will add features that are intended to help someone with a disability use a broken site or application. You want to be aware of this because you don't want the accessibility of your digital content to rely on these features. These features are never as good as just making the content accessible. These features can vary between screen readers which means one might have the feature and another one does not.
>
> Thanks!
> Tim
>
From: Mosley, Leigh
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2024 8:17AM
Subject: Re: - recommendationsforscreenreadertraining?
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Hello all,
I admit this email thread caught me by surprise. Can anyone be more specific about where this JAWS restriction on testing can be found? Although I'm sure Freedom Scientific would much prefer that everyone bought a full license, when I reread the EULA from the JAWS download I only find two sentences that seem relevant.
"The 40 Minute Mode is provided as a limited time duration license mode of the Program, which can be used to get started during the installation process of the Program or for a limited demonstration of how the Program works." It does not say "can only."
"The 40 Minute Mode is not intended for commercial use other than use while waiting for an active license to use the Program or an associated key to arrive or be installed." I'm certainly no lawyer, but "commercial use" to me sounds like "selling a product," which is certainly not what I am doing if I were to use JAWS to test resources for accessibility issues prior to their purchase by a public university.
Am I missing information from somewhere else? Or has there been an actual court case over this? I'm sure General Counsels everywhere would like to know!
Thanks.
Leigh Mosley, MA, MLS, CPWA
Accessibility Coordinator
University of Tennessee Libraries
1015 Volunteer Boulevard
Knoxville, TN 37996-1000
865-974-0011
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Schedule a meeting with me: https://calendly.com/leighmosley
From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Tue, Mar 26 2024 9:31AM
Subject: Re: -recommendationsforscreenreadertraining?
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It seems to me that if you are using JAWS in 40-minute mode, for testing -- that is commercial use, and not what they have in mind.!
Dave