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Thread: RE: repetitive navigation
Number of posts in this thread: 21 (In chronological order)
From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 6:53AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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<snip>
<a name="maincontent"></a>Begin your main content here.
Some people shy away from this technique because it adds 4 extra words to
their design that wouldn't otherwise be there, but this method is more
innclusive.
</snip>
You could hide the 4 words from CSS aware browsers such as:
<a name="maincontent" style="display: none">Begin your main content
here.</a>
or you set up the style as a class but either way, the text is hidden.
HTH,
Jules
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 11:00AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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Yes, you can hide the text in links that allow users to skip to the main
content, but then we're once again up against the problem that this hides an
accessibility feature from those who *can* see and who *cannot* use a mouse.
Imagine this scenario:
A man with quadriplegia uses a switch access system to use the Internet. In
simplistic terms, this is a button that he touches with his head. He moves
his head to the left to touch the button, which essentially acts like the
tab key on a keyboard. In order to navigate through the page, he taps his
head on the switch at his left. This system works as long as 1. the page is
keyboard-accessible and 2. he does not get too fatigued. As you can imagine,
tapping your head on a switch can get pretty tiresome, especially if you
have to tap 20 or 30 times on every page in order to reach the main content.
I have oversimplified the above scenario, but the fact remains that people
like this man could definitely use links that skip to the main content. It
will save them time and fatigue.
Having said this, I have to say that there still may be instances in which
using invisible text can be a good thing. Use this as your criteria: if the
text will only benefit screen reader users, and if it will be extraneous
information to all other users, then go ahead and hide the text.
The technique of hiding text is one that is good to know, but it must be
applied wisely.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:39 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
You could hide the 4 words from CSS aware browsers such as:
<a name="maincontent" style="display: none">Begin your main content
here.</a>
or you set up the style as a class but either way, the text is hidden.
HTH,
Jules
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From: tedge@tecaccess.net
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 11:14AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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"Yes, you can hide the text in links that allow users to skip to the
main content, but then we're once again up against the problem that this
hides an accessibility feature from those who *can* see and who *cannot*
use a mouse."
Paul,
This is so true and something I myself have not thought of.
Tracy
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From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 11:35AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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Hi Tracy and Paul,
I know it is a weak argument, but the skip link is in the tab order and
its href appears in the status bar of the window. It is not completely
hidden from those who can see and cannot use the mouse.
Jim
508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
"Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:03 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
"Yes, you can hide the text in links that allow users to skip to the
main content, but then we're once again up against the problem that this
hides an accessibility feature from those who *can* see and who *cannot*
use a mouse."
Paul,
This is so true and something I myself have not thought of.
Tracy
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From: tedge@tecaccess.net
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 11:53AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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"Hi Tracy and Paul,
I know it is a weak argument, but the skip link is in the tab order and
its href appears in the status bar of the window. It is not completely
hidden from those who can see and cannot use the mouse.
Jim"
Hi Jim,
I can see you point and I know there are a good many developers who do
not want to place a viewable text skip to link on their web page. As far
as I am concerned if they are completely unwilling to do so, then I
advice them to attach it to a unseen graphic at the top of the page.
Still I have never thought about the fact some people have to tab
through all those links without the presence of a skip to main. It
really gives me another selling point to make to clients who want to
understand the point of complying with the guidelines.
Thanks
Tracy Buetow
TecAccess
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From: Philip Pawley
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 12:36PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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Paul,
What do you think of the idea of hiding the skip link but using ":focus" and ":active" to make it visible when the keyboard focus reaches it?
At 06/02/03 10:46 -0700, you wrote:
>Yes, you can hide the text in links that allow users to skip to the main
>content, but then we're once again up against the problem that this hides an
>accessibility feature from those who *can* see and who *cannot* use a mouse.
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 12:51PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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That is a possibility which might simultaneously satisfy accessibility
requirements and graphic designers. I'd be interested to see any test pages
that you come up with using this approach.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Pawley [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:23 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
Paul,
What do you think of the idea of hiding the skip link but using ":focus" and
":active" to make it visible when the keyboard focus reaches it?
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From: jeb
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 1:09PM
Subject: Sect 508 vs WAI
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I seem to recall seeing a neat chart somewhere on the web where someone had
done a comparative analysis of Section 508 standards and the WAI standards.
I thought it was on Webaim, but I can't seem to find it.
Anyone know what I am referring to?
John E. Brandt
Augusta, ME 04330
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
www.jebswebs.com <http://www.jebswebs.com>;
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From: tedge@tecaccess.net
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 1:25PM
Subject: RE: Sect 508 vs WAI
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"I seem to recall seeing a neat chart somewhere on the web where someone
had done a comparative analysis of Section 508 standards and the WAI
standards. I thought it was on Webaim, but I can't seem to find it."
Hi John,
This is a great one done by Jim Thatcher:
http://jimthatcher.com/sidebyside.htm#508View
Tracy Buetow
TecAccess
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From: John Middleton
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 1:25PM
Subject: Re: Sect 508 vs WAI
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>>Maybe my Side-By-Side comparison of Section 508 and WCAG Priority 1
>>will help you:
>><http://jimthatcher.com/sidebyside.htm>;http://jimthatcher.com/sidebyside.htm.
>>
>>
>>Jim
>>Accessibility Consulting
>><http://jimthatcher.com/>;http://jimthatcher.com
>>512-306-0931
>>Constructing Accessible Web Sites, is now available at Amazon:
>><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/>;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1904151000/jimthatcherco-20/!
>>
>I seem to recall seeing a neat chart somewhere on the web where someone had
>done a comparative analysis of Section 508 standards and the WAI standards.
>I thought it was on Webaim, but I can't seem to find it.
>
>Anyone know what I am referring to?
>
>John E. Brandt
>Augusta, ME 04330
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>www.jebswebs.com <http://www.jebswebs.com>;
>
>
>
From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 1:39PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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There are also other techniques that should be used to skip navigation
bars, including using headers. I think tabindex has already mentiones,
since not all browsers support the skip nav link implementation.
Jon
On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Paul Bohman wrote:
> That is a possibility which might simultaneously satisfy accessibility
> requirements and graphic designers. I'd be interested to see any test pages
> that you come up with using this approach.
>
> Paul Bohman
> Technology Coordinator
> WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
> www.webaim.org
> Center for Persons with Disabilities
> www.cpd.usu.edu
> Utah State University
> www.usu.edu
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Philip Pawley [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 12:23 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
>
>
> Paul,
>
> What do you think of the idea of hiding the skip link but using ":focus" and
> ":active" to make it visible when the keyboard focus reaches it?
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
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From: tedge@tecaccess.net
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 2:39PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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"There are also other techniques that should be used to skip navigation
bars, including using headers. I think tabindex has already mentions,
since not all browsers support the skip nav link implementation."
Using headings is a good one in my book, but would that help someone who
can only tab through a page but does not use screen reader? Tabindex? I
must have missed something because how could tabindex be used to skip to
the main content? Do you mean to index the links so they start with the
main?
Tracy Buetow
TecAccess
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From: Philip Pawley
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 8:45PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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Hi Paul,
At 06/02/03 12:39 -0700, you wrote:
>That is a possibility which might simultaneously satisfy accessibility
>requirements and graphic designers. I'd be interested to see any test pages
>that you come up with using this approach.
I am currently revising my site. I don't want to air it yet, so I have put up one page that has very little textual revision in it: http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/wai/fees.html
You will need
username: wai
password: whynot
to access it. The page links (those that work) all lead to my current site.
Please, everyone, feel free to look. All criticism is welcome.
All the best,
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/
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From: jeb
Date: Thu, Feb 06 2003 9:35PM
Subject: RE: Sect 508 vs WAI
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Thanks everybody...that's exactly what I was looking for!
jeb
-----Original Message-----
From: jeb [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 2:56 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Sect 508 vs WAI
I seem to recall seeing a neat chart somewhere on the web where someone had
done a comparative analysis of Section 508 standards and the WAI standards.
I thought it was on Webaim, but I can't seem to find it.
Anyone know what I am referring to?
John E. Brandt
Augusta, ME 04330
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
www.jebswebs.com <http://www.jebswebs.com>;
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Fri, Feb 07 2003 7:11AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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> What do you think of the idea of hiding the skip link but using
> ":focus" and ":active" to make it visible when the keyboard focus
> reaches it?
Hi Philip,
This is a very interesting idea.
Could you give us an example of a code snippet using this method
that has been tested and works.
Thanks Much!
Leo.
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774
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From: Philip Pawley
Date: Fri, Feb 07 2003 2:14PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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Hi Leo,
At 07/02/03 08:58 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Philip,
>
>This is a very interesting idea.
>
>Could you give us an example of a code snippet using this method
>that has been tested and works.
>
>Thanks Much!
>
>Leo.
Here are the essentials: http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/wai/skip.html
Again, you'll need:
username: wai
password: whynot
Let me know what you think.
All the best,
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Feb 12 2003 4:27PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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Thank you for posting this example to the list. I am intrigued by the
possibilities of the code that you have shared with us. Your code allows
keyboard access to a hidden "skip to main content" link, which becomes
visible when tabbed to, and your fly-out menus are keyboard accessible as
well. I tested it in one of my screen readers and it performed well.
It appears to me that your method has quite a bit of potential. The markup
worked as intended in Internet Explorer 6 and Netscape 7. I tested it in a
couple of other browsers, including Opera 7, Netscape 4.8, and Netscape 3,
which did not seem to offer the same functionality as IE 6 or NS 7.
I do have a question. Why is the "skip to main content" link invisible and
(as far as I can tell) non-functional in Opera and NS 4.x? I can tell that
you are serving out different style sheets for different browsers, so it
seems to me that if you can't get the page to work exactly as you would
like, you could still make the "skip to main content" link functional (and
always visible, if necessary).
If I have missed something about the design, let me know.
If you can make the page work so that the "skip to main content" link is
invisible in newer browsers except when tabbed to, and if you make it always
visible and functional in other browsers (and in browsers with JavaScript
turned off), you may have a very workable technique. As for the fly-out
menu, to accommodate older browsers or browsers with JavaScript turned off,
you'd either have to make it so that the submenu items appeared on the
subsequent page or make it so that they appeared in the correct location on
the page (below the menu top level link) in older browsers and when
JavaScript is turned off.
I hope that you have either already found solutions for these issues, or
that you will be able to, because the technique has potential.
Keep us posted.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: Philip Pawley [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:29 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
Hi Paul,
At 06/02/03 12:39 -0700, you wrote:
>That is a possibility which might simultaneously satisfy accessibility
>requirements and graphic designers. I'd be interested to see any test
>pages that you come up with using this approach.
I am currently revising my site. I don't want to air it yet, so I have put
up one page that has very little textual revision in it:
http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/wai/fees.html
You will need
username: wai
password: whynot
to access it. The page links (those that work) all lead to my current site.
Please, everyone, feel free to look. All criticism is welcome.
All the best,
--
Philip Pawley
Liverpool, UK
http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/
--
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From: Philip Pawley
Date: Thu, Feb 13 2003 2:31PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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H Paul,
Thank you for your comments.
I disabled the "skip" links altogether for browsers other than Explorer 5 & 6 and Netscape 7 because I couldn't see the point of a "skip" link if the keyboard focus doesn't also skip. Even Opera 7 doesn't seem to work properly in this respect - either with Tab or with W and Q.
On Netscape 4, for instance, if you use the "skip" link (say, as an example, the "skip" link on WebAIM's home page) the page scrolls just fine. The problem is that, when you tab on further, you find that the keyboard focus never budged. That seems not only pointless but positively confusing to me. Surely, it must be better to disable the skip link altogether? Anyway that's why I hid it.
There is a further confusion here. I am using xhtml 1.1. Since that requires the "id" attribute instead of "name" for anchors, _none_ of my page anchors work for older browsers. To correct this, I am planning to provide an xhtml 1.0 or html 4 version for older browsers. I haven't got the server-side scripting for that yet. So, only non-functioning page anchors for Netscape 4 as yet.
BTW the "skip"-hiding technique is pure css: no javascript there.
Do please let me know if I am missing anything with all this.
Thank you also for your interest in the fly-out sub-menu (though I wasn't intending to demo it).
It is organised differently in my forth-coming site from the present one. This is because the old technique only seemed to work reliably using fixed font-sizes and widths in the navigation bar.
In the demo page, without css positioning, the submenu appears in the navigation column as just a part of the main menu - as you suggested. Functional but _very_ ugly.
That's why, for css-capable browsers with javascript turned off, the sub-menu is invisible. Instead, as you suggest, I simply duplicated the link to the second page in the sub-menu on the body of the first page. (I put it at the top of the page and again at the bottom). You can see that on the existing site: http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/breathing.html where I did the same thing.
Again, any further comments would be very welcome.
I hope some of this will be of use to other people too. Do, please, everyone, chip in with comments, questions, quibbles, brick-bats, whatever.
All the best,
At 12/02/03 16:22 -0700, you wrote:
>Thank you for posting this example to the list. I am intrigued by the
>possibilities of the code that you have shared with us. Your code allows
>keyboard access to a hidden "skip to main content" link, which becomes
>visible when tabbed to, and your fly-out menus are keyboard accessible as
>well. I tested it in one of my screen readers and it performed well.
>
>It appears to me that your method has quite a bit of potential. The markup
>worked as intended in Internet Explorer 6 and Netscape 7. I tested it in a
>couple of other browsers, including Opera 7, Netscape 4.8, and Netscape 3,
>which did not seem to offer the same functionality as IE 6 or NS 7.
>
>I do have a question. Why is the "skip to main content" link invisible and
>(as far as I can tell) non-functional in Opera and NS 4.x? I can tell that
>you are serving out different style sheets for different browsers, so it
>seems to me that if you can't get the page to work exactly as you would
>like, you could still make the "skip to main content" link functional (and
>always visible, if necessary).
>
>If I have missed something about the design, let me know.
>
>If you can make the page work so that the "skip to main content" link is
>invisible in newer browsers except when tabbed to, and if you make it always
>visible and functional in other browsers (and in browsers with JavaScript
>turned off), you may have a very workable technique. As for the fly-out
>menu, to accommodate older browsers or browsers with JavaScript turned off,
>you'd either have to make it so that the submenu items appeared on the
>subsequent page or make it so that they appeared in the correct location on
>the page (below the menu top level link) in older browsers and when
>JavaScript is turned off.
>
>I hope that you have either already found solutions for these issues, or
>that you will be able to, because the technique has potential.
>
>Keep us posted.
>
>Paul Bohman
>Technology Coordinator
>WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
>www.webaim.org
>Center for Persons with Disabilities
>www.cpd.usu.edu
>Utah State University
>www.usu.edu
Philip Pawley
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Thu, Feb 13 2003 3:29PM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
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My comments are inline:
<Philip Pawley said:>
...I disabled the "skip" links altogether for browsers other than Explorer
5 & 6 and Netscape 7 because I couldn't see the point of a "skip" link if
the keyboard focus doesn't also skip. ... On Netscape 4, for instance, if
you use the "skip" link ... when you tab on further, you find that the
keyboard focus never budged. That seems not only pointless but positively
confusing to me. Surely, it must be better to disable the skip link
altogether? ...
<end quote>
My response:
I see. I have long known about the inability of some browsers to change
the keyboard focus, and your're right. This is justification to remove the
"skip to navigation" since it doesn't work in these browsers.
Of course, you are pursuing quite a comprehensive approach that
accommodates each browser's weaknesses. Such thoroughness is certainly the
ideal. Some developers thrive on this sort of challenge, while others shun
it. If you have the time, resources and inclination, the thorough approach
is the best approach. I would also say that having only one well-designed
page is also a reasonable approach, even if it doesn't accommodate every
browser in every way. Pages that have a "skip to main content" link in
Netscape 4 are still "accessible" even if the full functionality of that
particular link is not available. But I applaud your well thought-out
approach.
<Philip Pawley said:>
BTW the "skip"-hiding technique is pure css: no javascript there.
<end quote>
My response: All the better!
<Philip Pawley said:>
In the demo page, without css positioning, the submenu appears in the
navigation column as just a part of the main menu - as you suggested.
Functional but _very_ ugly. That's why, for css-capable browsers with
javascript turned off, the sub-menu is invisible. Instead, as you suggest, I
simply duplicated the link to the second page in the sub-menu on the body of
the first page. (I put it at the top of the page and again at the bottom).
You can see that on the existing site:
http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/breathing.html where I did the same thing.
<end quote>
Again, your system is well thought-out.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Wed, Feb 19 2003 7:20AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
← Previous message | Next message →
<snip>
> I see. I have long known about the inability of some browsers to
> change
> the keyboard focus, and your're right. This is justification to remove
> the "skip to navigation" since it doesn't work in these browsers.
</snip>
Although, a "skip to main content" link would still work for folks
using screen readers (if the name attribute is used), so I would say
that would be a good reason to keep it there in NS4.
my 2 cents.
Best,
Leo.
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774
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From: Leo Smith
Date: Wed, Feb 19 2003 10:20AM
Subject: RE: repetitive navigation
← Previous message | No next message
Hi Philip,
I really like the idea of using the pseudo-class :focus to accomplish
the appearing "skip to...." link when tabbing.
I also like the idea of being able to skip back and forth between
main content and navigation.
As far as hiding the skip to link in NS4 completely, this seems like
a good idea based on the fact that the keyboard focus does not
skip in this browser, as it should.
I am assuming you would use display:none to achieve that, which
would effectively hide it completely from keyboard access, but still
make it available to screen reader users who, of course, would still
find it useful (unless display:none also hides content from screen
readers?)
Thanks for the technique Philip.
Leo.
On 7 Feb 2003, at 21:00, Philip Pawley wrote:
> Hi Leo,
>
> At 07/02/03 08:58 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hi Philip,
> >
> >This is a very interesting idea.
> >
> >Could you give us an example of a code snippet using this method that
> >has been tested and works.
> >
> >Thanks Much!
> >
> >Leo.
>
> Here are the essentials:
> http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/wai/skip.html
>
> Again, you'll need:
> username: wai
> password: whynot
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
> All the best,
>
>
> --
> Philip Pawley
> Liverpool, UK
> http://www.alexanderworks.org.uk/
> --
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
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