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Thread: accessible form feedback
Number of posts in this thread: 5 (In chronological order)
From: Joy M. Hyzny
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 12:43PM
Subject: accessible form feedback
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Hi,
I've been working with another department on campus in efforts to make a
completely accessible form. The work in progress form is located at:
http://tigger.uic.edu/~cdiaz3/CCSPD.html. I would greatly appreciate any
feedback you can provide for ensuring accessibility with this form. I have
issues with selecting multiple items from the drop downs and problems with
viewing page in Netscape. I am also unclear as to why the alt. tag is
listed as a problem in the Usable LIFT report. Any ideas or suggestions
are greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Joy Hyzny
Office of Disability Services
University of Illinois at Chicago
(312) 413-0886
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 2:38PM
Subject: RE: accessible form feedback
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The form looks quite good. I can tell you've put the effort into making it
accessible. There are only a couple of items that need attention. I ran it
through the WAVE at www.wave.webaim.org (here's a direct link to the
processed page:
http://www.wave.webaim.org:8081/wave/Output.jsp?InputUrlText=http%3A//tigger
.uic.edu/%7Ecdiaz3/CCSPD.html). If you're unfamiliar with the WAVE, you may
want to see the explanation of icons (see the link near the top of the page
in the WAVE).
You just need to add labels to your <select> elements and a <legend> to one
of your <fielset> tags. Actually, the fieldset that is missing a legend
doesn't look like it needs to be a fieldset at all. You might want to delete
the fieldset tag, since there is only one form element inside.
When you say that you have problems with Netscape, I'm not sure what you're
referring to. It looks great in the current version of Netscape (Netscape
7). I suspect that you're probably referring to Netscape 4.x, though. If
you're worried because the fieldset border doesn't show up, that's because
Netscape 4.x doesn't support it. Netscape just ignores the fieldset tag,
which is fine. IT just means that people won't see the border.
As far as not being able to select multiple items, this works just fine.
People using a mouse can use a combination of the mouse and the CTRL key (in
Windows). People using the keyboard alone can do the following:
-----Original Message-----
From: Joy M. Hyzny [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 12:41 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: accessible form feedback
Hi,
I've been working with another department on campus in efforts to make a
completely accessible form. The work in progress form is located at:
http://tigger.uic.edu/~cdiaz3/CCSPD.html. I would greatly appreciate any
feedback you can provide for ensuring accessibility with this form. I have
issues with selecting multiple items from the drop downs and problems with
viewing page in Netscape. I am also unclear as to why the alt. tag is
listed as a problem in the Usable LIFT report. Any ideas or suggestions
are greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
Joy Hyzny
Office of Disability Services
University of Illinois at Chicago
(312) 413-0886
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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Mar 05 2003 3:08PM
Subject: RE: accessible form feedback
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Sorry. I accidentally sent my last email before finishing it. Here's the
final part:
As far as not being able to select multiple items, this works just fine.
People using a mouse can use a combination of the mouse and the CTRL key (in
Windows). People using the keyboard alone can do the following:
Press SHIFT+F8. Use arrow keys to move between choices and then use the
SPACEBAR to select/de-select individual items (again, in Windows).
Now, it's true that not everyone knows how to do this. It's not an
easily-remembered procedure, but it does work. Some people who use the
keyboard alone will know how to do this, while others will not. I don't have
any statistics, but I'd be willing to guess that most people don't know the
keyboard shortcut for selecting multiple items in this type of list--even
among those who cannot use a mouse. It may not be a bad idea to provide some
information on the page such as this:
Building and classroom accessibility (please indicate all that apply*)
*How to select multiple items in this list
The text "How to select multiple items in this list" would be a link to a
place (either on the same page or a separate page) that explains both the
mouse and the keyboard method of selecting multiple items.
In the past I have not added instructions for how to select multiple items,
but I will admit that there have been several ocassions when I had to
explain how to do it. I may decide to add instructions such as this to
future forms that I create.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Thu, Mar 06 2003 5:48AM
Subject: RE: accessible form feedback
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With all due respect,
>
> As far as not being able to select multiple items, this works just fine.
> People using a mouse can use a combination of the mouse and the
> CTRL key (in
> Windows). People using the keyboard alone can do the following: {missing
content}
>
NO!!! Not all users know how to make multiple selections from a drop down
box, and not all OSes/User Agents support this functionality anyway. This
is NOT a good thing, and should be avoided at all costs, especially when
"mission critical".
This example does not indicate to me that this is the desired result anyway
(despite it's coding), but I would seek to "DISABLE" this functionality by
eliminating the "multiple" attribute: <select name="Employee_Status"
multiple>.
A few other observations...
Missing Doc Type Declaration means that this page cannot validate, which
contravenes W3C Priority 2 - 3.2 "Create documents that validate to
published formal grammars." This is perhaps my biggest RANT bugaboo. As
developers, the single most important thing we can do is ensure that the
code we are producing is compliant to a Standard, as this then shifts the
responsibility to the user agent to render standards compliant code
properly. I do not for a minute negate the fact that there are no truly
100% compliant browsers out there, and that we must still do a few
cartwheels to ensure approximate display parity across multiple user
agents/OSes. But at least by ensuring that the code we do produce conforms
to a standard we have reached a minimum basic requirement on our end. We're
not building cars, we're producing gasoline... If you chose to (or are
obligated to) use a clunker of a vehicle, well, that's the way it is. But
at least the gasoline that I dispense is pure and won't cause any damage...
Also, your in-line Style declarations are specifying fixed font sizes
(".font {font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;
font-weight: normal}"), which contravenes W3C Priority 2 - 3.4 "Use relative
rather than absolute units in markup language attribute values and style
sheet property values."
Finally, from an aesthetic perspective; I personally like to add a little
bit of padding to the fieldset declaration to give it some "breathing room"
(<fieldset style="padding: 8px;">). I'm also a big fan of using the Title
attribute in the <fieldset>, especially in longer forms (<fieldset
title="User Information" style="padding: 8px;">)
HTH
JF
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Fri, Mar 07 2003 3:35PM
Subject: RE: accessible form feedback
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John Foliot said:
... Not all users know how to make multiple selections from a drop down box,
and not all OSes/User Agents support this functionality anyway. This is NOT
a good thing, and should be avoided at all costs, especially when "mission
critical".
My response:
You're right. I appreciate your comments. In my comments I focused more on
whether the form was created according to the standards, and did not mention
the usability implications.
This dilemma is a good example of the nuances of accessibility that are easy
to overlook. List boxes are not "wrong." They are part of the specification,
and they do work in technologies that support the specification. The problem
is threefold: 1. The specification itself is inadequate, 2. The
implementation is not ideal, and 3. Not everyone knows how to make it work.
These types of lists were not built to be friendly to people who use the
keyboard. Interestingly enough, I've heard similar complaints from screen
reader users about checkboxes and radio buttons. However, the idea of being
able to select multiple items from a list is a basic and fundamental
concept. Some types of interaction are nearly impossible if there is not
some way to select multiple items from a list, whether it be in a list box
or in checkbox format.
Overall, I would say that the checkbox format has fewer usability problems,
though some people do find them difficult to use. If labels are not applied
to every checkbox option, and/or if there is not a fieldset (with a
corresponding legend tag) around the checkbox options, it can be very
difficult to understand the context of the checkbox options when using a
screen reader.
Even though list boxes are a legitimate part of the HTML specification, and
even though the theory behind them is not so bad, the implementation leaves
a lot to be desired.
What to do then?
I would say that checkboxes are a safer option in general, and they will be
more accessible to more people. Wrap you checkboxes in a fieldset and
legend, then give each checkbox a proper label.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
---
*Register now*
WebAIM's Online Web Accessibility Training Event 2003
at www.webaim.org/training2003/
Dates: March 31-April 18
This event offers invaluable instruction and resources for developers,
managers/administrators, and accessibility trainers. Be a part of it!
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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/