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From: Terence de Giere
Date: Tue, Aug 26 2003 8:09PM
Subject: Re: AccMonitor
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Carol Foster wrote:

Does anyone have knowledge or experience of AccMonitor or any other
HiSoftware product that is NOT tied in to Microsoft products...

Maybe you could clarify this question a bit. Did you mean: are there versions that do not run on Windows platforms? Linux? UNIX? SCO UNIX (which includes everything everyone has ever written for UNIX)? Maybe Mr. Yonatis (the CEO of HISoftware by the way) could clear up some points.

Will AccMonitor parse files like Cold Fusion code, ASP code, PHP code etc., or just the final page after it is processed and served by the server?

Generally we want to check the accessibility of the final page that the user experiences. I'm not sure whether any product is adept at navigating parts of pages or non-HTML tag names to check the accessibility at that level.

Since many developers will create multiple versions of pages for different browsers that can be assembled using detection schemes and includes using PHP, ASP, JSP etc., I think we also need to know if AccMonitor can successfully spoof various user agents, so it can test the served version of a page for a particular user agent, should a site be programmed that way.

It is logically possible for web pages composed of includes, and other generated HTML code to have accessibility problems even if the disassembled parts might check out OK, so checking raw code except for the final full page could lead to not catching errors. So it is not perfectly clear whether testing anything but the page a user is going to experience is practical. It might be most practical when developing general templates for a site, but still the final page is what has to be compliant. To check PHP, ASP, JSP, Cold Fusion, and languages used in CGI would mean that the software has to process code for each of those languages, which might not be practical to develop. Accessibility is at the users' end, not the server side.

While ideally we are trying in accessibility to create a single page that works for all browsers, this may not work out in real practice. For example, a number of government agencies are still tied to Netscape 4, which has a poor CSS implementation and might be best handled by a different style sheet applied by the server, or even slightly different HTML, to deal with some lacks of standards support.

Manual checking of pages is usually almost always necessary, so someone who knows what they are doing has to be part of use the package. The various applications developed by HISoftware do indicate what needs to be checked manually. They also can give a good overview of what percentage a particular problem on large site is, so one can gauge what kind of resources will be needed to fix the site.

I have been told that HISoftware is very responsive to user input, something a lot of software companies seem to have forgotten about.

Terence de Giere
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From: Robert B. Yonaitis
Date: Tue, Aug 26 2003 8:39PM
Subject: RE: AccMonitor
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Good Questions:

> Maybe you could clarify this question a bit. Did you mean:
> are there versions that do not run on Windows platforms?
> Linux? UNIX? SCO UNIX (which includes everything everyone has
> ever written for UNIX)? Maybe Mr. Yonatis (the CEO of
> HISoftware by the way) could clear up some points.

(Current Version) Server must be installed on Windows 2000 or above server

AccMonitor Can Test Pages Residing or Any Server UNIX, LINUX, MAC, Etc....
mapped or via HTTP, HTTPS. FTP, etc... (HTTP, HTTPS makes more sense
generally, for reasons mentioned later in this mail. *** Now this is
important! Test your UNIX Server based Tester and see if it can handle unix
based files properly, you may be surprised with the poor results!,
HiSoftware has 0 issues with files based on unix servers.

>
> Will AccMonitor parse files like Cold Fusion code, ASP code,
> PHP code etc., or just the final page after it is processed
> and served by the server?

Depending on specific code all of the above. We have Special Parsers built
to handle special coding found in ASP ETC, and the ability for the user to
customize much of the same if they wish to.

However

I agree with: Generally we want to check the accessibility of the final
page that the user experiences. I'm not sure whether any
product is adept at navigating parts of pages or non-HTML tag
names to check the accessibility at that level.


> Since many developers will create multiple versions of pages
> for different browsers that can be assembled using detection
> schemes and includes using PHP, ASP, JSP etc., I think we
> also need to know if AccMonitor can successfully spoof
> various user agents, so it can test the served version of a
> page for a particular user agent, should a site be programmed
> that way.

And yes this can be set and a very good point. This is fully tested and has
been around since version 1.0 of our software.

> It is logically possible for web pages composed of includes,
> and other generated HTML code to have accessibility problems
> even if the disassembled parts might check out OK, so
> checking raw code except for the final full page could lead
> to not catching errors. So it is not perfectly clear whether
> testing anything but the page a user is going to experience
> is practical. It might be most practical when developing
> general templates for a site, but still the final page is
> what has to be compliant. To check PHP, ASP, JSP, Cold
> Fusion, and languages used in CGI would mean that the
> software has to process code for each of those languages,
> which might not be practical to develop. Accessibility is at
> the users' end, not the server side.

Correct, All Very nicely handled by our servers and clients and an important
feature.


>
> Manual checking of pages is usually almost always necessary,
> so someone who knows what they are doing has to be part of
> use the package. The various applications developed by
> HISoftware do indicate what needs to be checked manually.
> They also can give a good overview of what percentage a
> particular problem on large site is, so one can gauge what
> kind of resources will be needed to fix the site.
>

We can (Our Software) give you metrics of what needs to be tested manually,
as well as integrating a web based or client interview wizard that lets you
validate that the manual checks have been completed and provide complete
reports based on this... Our desktop Software has comprehensive (Built-In)
Preview modes to assist with the manual checks. We are unique in the
interview process and total accountability in reporting, in servers and
clients.

> I have been told that HISoftware is very responsive to user
> input, something a lot of software companies seem to have
> forgotten about.

We try. And we will continue to improve because of tremendous and positive
user feedback as well as logical demands for improvement (Critical
Feedback). A Software company must meet the needs of their users whom they
are providing solutions for. IMHO

Anyone should feel free to request demo software and take it for a test
drive. There is no need for a slew of specialist or consultants to install
our trial software.

Remember our software can test it all, including SVG, XML, You name it...

Best Regards,

Rob Yonaitis




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From: Carol Foster
Date: Wed, Aug 27 2003 8:08AM
Subject: Re: AccMonitor
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Thanks for all the replies on this. Apologies for the confusion! More below
interspersed with some others' comments.

Carol

> Terence de Giere wrote:
>
> > Maybe you could clarify this question a bit. Did you mean:
> > are there versions that do not run on Windows platforms?
> > Linux? UNIX? SCO UNIX (which includes everything everyone has
> > ever written for UNIX)? Maybe Mr. Yonatis (the CEO of
> > HISoftware by the way) could clear up some points.

What I meant was that I do not think the REPAIR tools work on files generated
from ColdFusion, PHP, etc. I am not too interested in repair tools anyway at
this point. I had thought the repair tools were tied in to Microsoft products
such as Frontpage.

I am interested in the automatic checking tools, especially for large sites or
many sites. I realize they cannot do everything, but they could be a great help
in catching the common errors like missing alt text or broken links for sites
that would not get checked regularly if at all otherwise. I recall that
AccMonitor looked like the best fit for many sites and maybe AccVerify would
work for fewer sites, though I admit my memory is fuzzy (and I could not find
these details quickly online just now); please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have heard many wonderful things about these products, but mostly this has
come through HiSoftware, so *** I am very interested in hearing from others (not
referred from HiSoftware) who have used the verification/monitoring products for
a while ***. Just because in my experience it gives a different perspective.
No slight to HiSoftware. I have been to an online demo and have read the
articles they sent around. I will

I have also heard good thins about HiSoftware and its customer service, and my
personal experiences here have been good also.

I will definitely look into Robert Yonaitis' suggestion:

> Anyone should feel free to request demo software and take it for a test
> drive. There is no need for a slew of specialist or consultants to install
> our trial software.

--
Carol Foster, Web Developer
Internet Publishing Group, Information Technology Services
University of Massachusetts, President's Office
phone: (413) 587-2130
fax: (413) 587-2148
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.umass-its.net/ipg
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From: Robert B. Yonaitis
Date: Wed, Aug 27 2003 8:29AM
Subject: RE: AccMonitor
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//What I meant was that I do not think the REPAIR tools work on files
generated from //ColdFusion, PHP, etc. I am not too interested in repair
tools anyway at this //point. I had thought the repair tools were tied in
to Microsoft products such as //Frontpage.

Yes - If available... If your PHP has an image tag it can be repaired if it
is presenting alt in code then code would have to be fixed. Depends on you
impl;imentation.

AccVerify/AccMonitor
Both are fast and effective - one is a server that runs unattended, has
concept of new files only and alerting etc.... (Server Solution)AccVerify
takes human hands to operate though OS Level scheduling is available.


I think that is the most i can help you with. Our users are always happy to
help others, good luck with your research

Cheers, rob


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From: Carol Foster
Date: Wed, Aug 27 2003 9:09AM
Subject: Re: AccMonitor
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Thanks very much; this is helpful.

Carol

"Robert B. Yonaitis" wrote:

> //What I meant was that I do not think the REPAIR tools work on files
> generated from //ColdFusion, PHP, etc. I am not too interested in repair
> tools anyway at this //point. I had thought the repair tools were tied in
> to Microsoft products such as //Frontpage.
>
> Yes - If available... If your PHP has an image tag it can be repaired if it
> is presenting alt in code then code would have to be fixed. Depends on you
> impl;imentation.
>
> AccVerify/AccMonitor
> Both are fast and effective - one is a server that runs unattended, has
> concept of new files only and alerting etc.... (Server Solution)AccVerify
> takes human hands to operate though OS Level scheduling is available.
>
> I think that is the most i can help you with. Our users are always happy to
> help others, good luck with your research
>
> Cheers, rob


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