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Thread: Table Column Headings
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 7:21AM
Subject: Table Column Headings
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Hi,
Is there a way to hide a table's header row so that it is not visible in the
browser, but so that screen readers will still speak the header row
information?
Thanks,
Tim
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From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 7:45AM
Subject: Re: Table Column Headings
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on 11/3/03 9:15 AM, Tim Harshbarger at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
profoundly spewed forth their very articulate thoughts:
> Is there a way to hide a table's header row so that it is not visible in the
> browser, but so that screen readers will still speak the header row
> information?
Someone may have a creative idea, but I cannot think of a way... The reason
being that if you set the contents to be hidden to sighted viewers, many
screen readers will not read them either... (I believe JAWS basically reads
what IE6 PC sees).
If it were layers, you could set up some fancy tricks, but being a table,
the only thing I can think of is to set the text the same color as the
background... And this should ONLY be done if you don't have any need of
search engine indexing since it's one of the old SE Spammer tricks and can
get you black listed from the index completely.
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to
what lies within us." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 7:47AM
Subject: Re: Table Column Headings
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On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Tim Harshbarger wrote:
> Is there a way to hide a table's header row so that it is not visible in the
> browser, but so that screen readers will still speak the header row
> information?
Not really. Why would you do that? The summary attribute in <table> is
supposed to be used for purposes like that, i.e. to provide information
(on the structure of the table) that is optionally available but not
normally visible. The support is not very good. The only safe way to make
such information surely available is to make it part of the document
content proper, normally before the table.
The point is that a screen reader reads what there is on the screen.
But if you really want, you might experiment with the idea of making the
font size of the table row very small and the text color the same as the
background color. As far as I can guess, screen readers would still read
it normally, whereas people using normal graphic browsers would not see
it. But this is somewhat risky. What if a person with reduced eyesight
surfs around with a graphic browser set to override settings on pages,
using a user-specified font size and user-specified colors?
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 7:49AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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Recent tests with screen readers have shown that if you hide content (using
either visibility: hidden or display:none), screen readers don't read it.
One person on another accessibility discussion hid content by making the
color of the text the same as the color of the background and reported that
it was read by screen readers.
However, there is another issue - if the header content is useful to those
who use screen readers, why is it not useful to the rest of us? I suggest
that you use headers for everyone.
Jules
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Harshbarger [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>
> Is there a way to hide a table's header row so that it is not
> visible in the
> browser, but so that screen readers will still speak the header row
> information?
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From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 8:15AM
Subject: Re: Table Column Headings
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----- Original Message -----
From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> However, there is another issue - if the header content is useful to those
> who use screen readers, why is it not useful to the rest of us? I suggest
> that you use headers for everyone.
I have to agree. Admittedly, this is without knowing the specific
situation, but think about this from the other perspective...
Is making content unavailable to people based on the fact that they CAN see
really that much different (philosophically speaking) than making it
unavailable to people based on the fact that they cannot?
Michael
AccessRamp.org
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From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 8:18AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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Jules,
They do have headers for the table. Unfortunately, this particular project
team made the table with the headers a separate table. They did this so
they could create a scrollable table while making the headers static.
Thanks!
Tim
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:42 AM
>To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
>
>
>Recent tests with screen readers have shown that if you hide
>content (using either visibility: hidden or display:none),
>screen readers don't read it. One person on another
>accessibility discussion hid content by making the color of
>the text the same as the color of the background and reported
>that it was read by screen readers.
>
>However, there is another issue - if the header content is
>useful to those who use screen readers, why is it not useful
>to the rest of us? I suggest that you use headers for everyone.
>
>Jules
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Julian Rickards
>Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
>Publications Services Section
>Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
>Phone: (705) 670-5608
>Fax: (705) 670-5690
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tim Harshbarger [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>>
>> Is there a way to hide a table's header row so that it is not
>> visible in the
>> browser, but so that screen readers will still speak the header row
>> information?
>
>
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>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
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From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 8:24AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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Jukka,
Thanks for the suggestions.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 8:42 AM
>To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Subject: Re: Table Column Headings
>
>
>On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Tim Harshbarger wrote:
>
>> Is there a way to hide a table's header row so that it is
>not visible
>> in the browser, but so that screen readers will still speak
>the header
>> row information?
>
>Not really. Why would you do that? The summary attribute in
><table> is supposed to be used for purposes like that, i.e. to
>provide information (on the structure of the table) that is
>optionally available but not normally visible. The support is
>not very good. The only safe way to make such information
>surely available is to make it part of the document content
>proper, normally before the table.
>
>The point is that a screen reader reads what there is on the screen.
>
>But if you really want, you might experiment with the idea of
>making the font size of the table row very small and the text
>color the same as the background color. As far as I can guess,
>screen readers would still read it normally, whereas people
>using normal graphic browsers would not see it. But this is
>somewhat risky. What if a person with reduced eyesight surfs
>around with a graphic browser set to override settings on
>pages, using a user-specified font size and user-specified colors?
>
>--
>Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
>
>
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>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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From: Karl Groves
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 8:42AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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Please remember that accessibility is NOT just about the blind. There is a wide array of potential special needs that must be addressed by accessible design.
Please also remember that Accessibility is a part of a greater whole that is Usability. Proper table structure is helpful for all people, regardless of disability.
Based upon your other reply to this discussion, it appears that the page is broken to begin with and that you're attempting to hide the header row to compensate for the broken page. In many instances in the corporate environment, we don't always have control of everything as we should. But if you can control it, you should fix the whole page instead of resorting to a workaround.
Karl L. Groves, Certified Master CIW Designer
E-Commerce Manager
NASA Federal Credit Union
500 Prince Georges Blvd.
Upper Marlboro, MD 20774
301-249-1800 ext.497
Fax: 301-390-4531
Opinions expressed in this e-mail represent only myself and are not in any way to be taken as the words or opinions of my employer.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Harshbarger [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 9:16 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Table Column Headings
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Is there a way to hide a table's header row so that it is not
> visible in the
> browser, but so that screen readers will still speak the header row
> information?
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 8:56AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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Hi:
How can you create a scrollable table? Frames of course where you have the
<th> in the top frame and the <td> in the bottom frame - it may also be
possible to use overflow: scroll but I don't know.
If frames have been developed, then there is a disassociation of the table
headers from the table data which means your tables have no headers. If you
are able to use overflow:scroll, then because it is a style issue, you can
keep the <th> and <td> together (in code anyway) but as I said, I don't know
if that is possible.
Now I understand why you are looking for an answer to your question.
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Harshbarger [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>
> They do have headers for the table. Unfortunately, this
> particular project
> team made the table with the headers a separate table. They
> did this so
> they could create a scrollable table while making the headers
> static.
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From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 9:02AM
Subject: Re: Table Column Headings
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From: "Tim Harshbarger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> They do have headers for the table. Unfortunately, this particular
project
> team made the table with the headers a separate table. They did this so
> they could create a scrollable table while making the headers static.
>
Ahhh, *now* it's making sense. I can picture what they are doing. Is the
'scrollable table' in a full frame, or in an iframe?
Either way, how about just putting the headers at the top of the
'scrollable' table as well? I think that would make a good intermediate
solution until something else can be thought of. You might think it looks a
bit 'odd' at first, but once you start scrolling the table, the reason for
the 'extra headers' makes sense. If you have a couple thousand rows of
data, a 'floating header' like this is a big help. But, there is an
accessibility issue, which is why the question was brought in the first
place.
If it's a full frame, you might even be able to load the frame with a
particular point in the page at the top of the frame and 'hide' the repeated
header from the viewer when they first see it.
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From: Randy Pearson
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 9:26AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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> How can you create a scrollable table? - it
> may also be possible to use overflow: scroll but I don't know.
You can do something like this in Mozilla/Firebird:
tbody{ height: 300px; scroll: auto;}
But MSIE doesn't honor it. In fact, if you did nothing else, MSIE would
cause each TR to *inherit* the 300px height! (Not pretty.) You can get MSIE
back to square one by also including:
tr{height: auto;}
But if MSIE represents a heavy percentage of your target audience, this
isn't much of a solution. :-<
-- Randy
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From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 9:40AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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... and if the visitor's browser does not support iframe, they get nothing
right?
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Ahhh, *now* it's making sense. I can picture what they are
> doing. Is the
> 'scrollable table' in a full frame, or in an iframe?
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From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Mon, Nov 03 2003 9:58AM
Subject: RE: Table Column Headings
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Hi,
I just called one of the developers to double check. I made the
"assumption" that they were using an iframe. I was wrong on that. They are
actually setting the CSS overflow property to "auto".
I was trying to put together a solution that used the thead and tbody
elements with CSS to create a scrollable table that worked. However, the
intended audience will only be using IE to access the web app and it does
not appear so far that I can get that combination to work correctly.
Thanks,
Tim
>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:02 AM
>To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>Subject: Re: Table Column Headings
>
>
>From: "Tim Harshbarger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>
>> They do have headers for the table. Unfortunately, this particular
>project
>> team made the table with the headers a separate table. They
>did this
>> so they could create a scrollable table while making the headers
>> static.
>>
>
>
>Ahhh, *now* it's making sense. I can picture what they are
>doing. Is the 'scrollable table' in a full frame, or in an iframe?
>
>Either way, how about just putting the headers at the top of
>the 'scrollable' table as well? I think that would make a
>good intermediate solution until something else can be thought
>of. You might think it looks a bit 'odd' at first, but once
>you start scrolling the table, the reason for the 'extra
>headers' makes sense. If you have a couple thousand rows of
>data, a 'floating header' like this is a big help. But, there
>is an accessibility issue, which is why the question was
>brought in the first place.
>
>If it's a full frame, you might even be able to load the frame
>with a particular point in the page at the top of the frame
>and 'hide' the repeated header from the viewer when they first see it.
>
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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