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Thread: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
Number of posts in this thread: 23 (In chronological order)
From: Spruill, Kevin (NIH/NLM)
Date: Mon, Nov 10 2003 10:19AM
Subject: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
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Melanie,
One example would be a senior citizen who has a slight palsy (shaking of the
hand(s)) - asking them to find, let alone select a 1x1 or similar "invisible
gif" is cruel... Though the link may be accessible via keyboard (accesskey
and/or tab), if they're not used to navigating that way it's going to be
problematic. Then there's also the fact that if they don't know the skip
link is there, they can't use it.
Having the skip link for users of screen readers is a good start, but
consideration should be given for everyone.
Examples:
http://nihseniorhealth.gov
http://medlineplus.gov/
From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Mon, Nov 10 2003 10:35AM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
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on 11/10/03 12:14 PM, Spruill, Kevin (NIH/NLM) at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
profoundly spewed forth their very articulate thoughts:
> One example would be a senior citizen who has a slight palsy (shaking of the
> hand(s)) - asking them to find, let alone select a 1x1 or similar "invisible
> gif" is cruel... Though the link may be accessible via keyboard (accesskey
> and/or tab), if they're not used to navigating that way it's going to be
> problematic. Then there's also the fact that if they don't know the skip
> link is there, they can't use it.
>
> Having the skip link for users of screen readers is a good start, but
> consideration should be given for everyone.
>
> Examples:
>
> http://nihseniorhealth.gov
> http://medlineplus.gov/
Though I understand what you're saying and I do agree we're dealing with
"everyone with a disability" here, the above example doesn't work for me...
If someone is navigating with a screenreader, skip links done properly
work... If someone is tabbing through a page, when done properly, they
work... But why would a elderly person who is USING A MOUSE as you say need
to skip the navigation?? The navigation is not taking up the whole page
(it's generally at the top or on the side)... They must be reading? And if
they want to navigate to another page, they'll click a link...
??
In the above site on nihseniorhealth.gov (nice example on the top bar btw),
if I'm sighted and using a mouse, I clicked skip nav and it doesn't do
anything... Because there's nothing to skip really. There's just a menu on
that page...
It would, however, be helpful to screen readers or people who navigate with
the keyboard.
Am I missing something here?
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
"Hide not your talents. They for use were made. What's a sundial in the
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From: Spruill, Kevin (NIH/NLM)
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 10:30AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
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Stephanie,
>>... If someone is tabbing through a page, when done properly, they work...
But why would >>a elderly person who is USING A MOUSE as you say need to
skip the navigation?? The >>navigation is not taking up >>the whole
page (it's generally at the top or on the >>side)... They must be
reading? And if they want to navigate to another page, they'll >>click a
link...
Let's see...if a user has their font size set to say... 150 to 200% in a
(Mozilla flavor browser, etc. - or using an ipaq or similar device) then
skipping the navigation controls (albeit few in the first example) would be
very helpful...
>>In the above site on nihseniorhealth.gov (nice example on the top bar
btw), if I'm >>sighted and using a mouse, I clicked skip nav and it
doesn't do anything... Because >>there's nothing to skip really. There's
just a menu on that page...
In the nihseniorhealth site, the skip link places focus on farther along in
the page, depending on screen size, resolution, and browser size you may or
may not see the focus change - for example:
http://nihseniorhealth.gov/alzheimersdisease/defined/01.html - selecting the
skip navigation link allows the user to bypass the global navigation links
at the top, as well as all the topical navigation links on the left hand
side. Focus is placed on the subject topic, and subtopic... Tabbing then
places focus on the actual content paragraph.
>>It would, however, be helpful to screen readers or people who navigate
with the keyboard.
>>Am I missing something here?
Not necessarily, my only point in the initial reply to your question was
that it's important to consider as many scenarios as possible. As a sighted
user, YOU might not readily see (no pun intended) value in the use of
visible links... But there are a lot of users who don't use computers the
way you would - or have the abilities you do... Or here's a better
question... Why not make them visible, they don't hurt or hinder access?
HK
Kevin Spruill
U.S. National Library of Medicine, NIH (OCCS)
8600 Rockville Pike
Bethesda, MD 20894
(301) 402-9708
(301) 402-0367 (fax)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
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From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 10:47AM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
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on 11/12/03 12:24 PM, Spruill, Kevin (NIH/NLM) at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
profoundly spewed forth their very articulate thoughts:
> In the nihseniorhealth site, the skip link places focus on farther along in
> the page, depending on screen size, resolution, and browser size you may or
> may not see the focus change - for example:
>
> http://nihseniorhealth.gov/alzheimersdisease/defined/01.html - selecting the
> skip navigation link allows the user to bypass the global navigation links
> at the top, as well as all the topical navigation links on the left hand
> side. Focus is placed on the subject topic, and subtopic... Tabbing then
> places focus on the actual content paragraph.
Right ....I totally understand that... I have two sites I've done with
visible skip links... I'm not arguing with the practice. :)
I was only arguing with the fact that on most sites, the verbiage is right
there (unless you're viewing code or using assistive tech)... A "mouse user"
will generally find no use in skipnav...
My problem was with the example of an elderly person that can't click on the
1x1 gif so they can skip the navigation... And my point was just that if
they were using a mouse, they wouldn't need to click the skiplink because
they're... well... using a mouse. If they were not using a mouse, their
adaptive tech would pick up the skiplink as well as those who tab through
they who would hit it...
The elderly mouse user is not the target for a skip link... That is all...
;)
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
From: John Britsios
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 12:01PM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
Nice example. But the link contrast between background and foreground is not
efficient.
Just an another accessibility thought.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Spruill, Kevin (NIH/NLM)" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'Stephanie Sullivan'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
> Stephanie,
>
> >>... If someone is tabbing through a page, when done properly, they
work...
> But why would >>a elderly person who is USING A MOUSE as you say need to
> skip the navigation?? The >>navigation is not taking up >>the whole
> page (it's generally at the top or on the >>side)... They must be
> reading? And if they want to navigate to another page, they'll >>click
a
> link...
>
> Let's see...if a user has their font size set to say... 150 to 200% in a
> (Mozilla flavor browser, etc. - or using an ipaq or similar device)
then
> skipping the navigation controls (albeit few in the first example) would
be
> very helpful...
>
> >>In the above site on nihseniorhealth.gov (nice example on the top bar
> btw), if I'm >>sighted and using a mouse, I clicked skip nav and it
> doesn't do anything... Because >>there's nothing to skip really.
There's
> just a menu on that page...
>
> In the nihseniorhealth site, the skip link places focus on farther along
in
> the page, depending on screen size, resolution, and browser size you may
or
> may not see the focus change - for example:
>
> http://nihseniorhealth.gov/alzheimersdisease/defined/01.html - selecting
the
> skip navigation link allows the user to bypass the global navigation links
> at the top, as well as all the topical navigation links on the left hand
> side. Focus is placed on the subject topic, and subtopic... Tabbing then
> places focus on the actual content paragraph.
>
> >>It would, however, be helpful to screen readers or people who navigate
> with the keyboard.
>
> >>Am I missing something here?
>
> Not necessarily, my only point in the initial reply to your question was
> that it's important to consider as many scenarios as possible. As a
sighted
> user, YOU might not readily see (no pun intended) value in the use of
> visible links... But there are a lot of users who don't use computers the
> way you would - or have the abilities you do... Or here's a better
> question... Why not make them visible, they don't hurt or hinder access?
>
> HK
>
>
> Kevin Spruill
> U.S. National Library of Medicine, NIH (OCCS)
> 8600 Rockville Pike
> Bethesda, MD 20894
> (301) 402-9708
> (301) 402-0367 (fax)
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
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From: Andrew.Arch
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 7:54PM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
Another group who rely on skipping navigation (but often don't use any
special assistive technology) are those with a physical impairment that
prevents them (permanently or temporarily due to an accident) from using a
mouse. See the WebAIM video for an interview with one such person -
http://www.webaim.org/info/asdvideo. A visible "skip" is very useful here.
For another nice example, see Monash University's new home page -
http://www.monash.edu.au/ - very unobtrusive.
Andrew
_________________________________
Dr Andrew Arch
Manager Online Accessibility Consulting, National Information & Library
Service
Ph 613 9864 9222; Fax 613 9864 9210; Mobile 0438 755 565
http://www.nils.org.au/ | http://www.it-test.com.au/ |
http://www.dc-anz.org/
Member, Education & Outreach Working Group,
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/
NILS - A Joint Venture between the
Royal Victorian Institute for the Blind, The Royal Blind Society of NSW,
and Vision Australia Foundation.
"John Britsios"
<webmaster@webnau To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
ts.net> cc:
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
13/11/2003 05:57
AM
Please respond to
"John Britsios"
Nice example. But the link contrast between background and foreground is
not
efficient.
Just an another accessibility thought.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Spruill, Kevin (NIH/NLM)" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "'Stephanie Sullivan'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
> Stephanie,
>
> >>... If someone is tabbing through a page, when done properly, they
work...
> But why would >>a elderly person who is USING A MOUSE as you say need to
> skip the navigation?? The >>navigation is not taking up >>the whole
> page (it's generally at the top or on the >>side)... They must be
> reading? And if they want to navigate to another page, they'll >>click
a
> link...
>
> Let's see...if a user has their font size set to say... 150 to 200% in a
> (Mozilla flavor browser, etc. - or using an ipaq or similar device)
then
> skipping the navigation controls (albeit few in the first example) would
be
> very helpful...
>
> >>In the above site on nihseniorhealth.gov (nice example on the top bar
> btw), if I'm >>sighted and using a mouse, I clicked skip nav and it
> doesn't do anything... Because >>there's nothing to skip really.
There's
> just a menu on that page...
>
> In the nihseniorhealth site, the skip link places focus on farther along
in
> the page, depending on screen size, resolution, and browser size you may
or
> may not see the focus change - for example:
>
> http://nihseniorhealth.gov/alzheimersdisease/defined/01.html - selecting
the
> skip navigation link allows the user to bypass the global navigation
links
> at the top, as well as all the topical navigation links on the left hand
> side. Focus is placed on the subject topic, and subtopic... Tabbing then
> places focus on the actual content paragraph.
>
> >>It would, however, be helpful to screen readers or people who navigate
> with the keyboard.
>
> >>Am I missing something here?
>
> Not necessarily, my only point in the initial reply to your question was
> that it's important to consider as many scenarios as possible. As a
sighted
> user, YOU might not readily see (no pun intended) value in the use of
> visible links... But there are a lot of users who don't use computers the
> way you would - or have the abilities you do... Or here's a better
> question... Why not make them visible, they don't hurt or hinder access?
>
> HK
>
>
> Kevin Spruill
> U.S. National Library of Medicine, NIH (OCCS)
> 8600 Rockville Pike
> Bethesda, MD 20894
> (301) 402-9708
> (301) 402-0367 (fax)
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, suspend, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
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From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 9:12PM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
on 11/12/03 9:40 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = at
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = profoundly spewed forth their very
articulate thoughts:
> Another group who rely on skipping navigation (but often don't use any
> special assistive technology) are those with a physical impairment that
> prevents them (permanently or temporarily due to an accident) from using a
> mouse.
But don't those people navigate then by tabbing through with the keyboard?
Thus, if the skiplink was coded properly they would still hit it.
???
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
From: Andrew.Arch
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 9:39PM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
tabbing - yes they would still hit an invisible "skip", but how do they
know they have landed on it, except by watching the address bar (in IE) at
the bottom of the page? Most web users are not this educated (e.g. see
Sarah Horton's email [RE: opening new browser windows?] of Nov 13).
Andrew
Stephanie
Sullivan To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
<design@violetsky cc:
.net> Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
13/11/2003 03:07
PM
Please respond to
webaim-forum
on 11/12/03 9:40 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = at
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = profoundly spewed forth their very
articulate thoughts:
> Another group who rely on skipping navigation (but often don't use any
> special assistive technology) are those with a physical impairment that
> prevents them (permanently or temporarily due to an accident) from using
a
> mouse.
But don't those people navigate then by tabbing through with the keyboard?
Thus, if the skiplink was coded properly they would still hit it.
???
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Wed, Nov 12 2003 10:09PM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
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on 11/12/03 11:26 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = at
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = profoundly spewed forth their very
articulate thoughts:
>
> tabbing - yes they would still hit an invisible "skip", but how do they
> know they have landed on it, except by watching the address bar (in IE) at
> the bottom of the page? Most web users are not this educated (e.g. see
> Sarah Horton's email [RE: opening new browser windows?] of Nov 13).
Well, I've either used visual ones (I'm only arguing theory here) or, in an
upcoming book project on DW, I show how to create a skiplink that is hidden
when you use a mouse but is visual when tabbing and read by screenreaders as
well.
It's based on Philippe Whittenberg and Tom Gilder's methods... It's my new
favorite way to do it because it seems to work for anyone that needs it but
is unobtrusive as well...
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
(Inspiration) -
From: Karl Groves
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 6:25AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
OK, so to clarify -
You're saying that those with motor impairments can use the skip link as a method to more quickly get to in-context links?
I've never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense.
Karl L. Groves, Certified Master CIW Designer
E-Commerce Manager
NASA Federal Credit Union
500 Prince Georges Blvd.
Upper Marlboro, MD 20774
301-249-1800 ext.497
Fax: 301-390-4531
Opinions expressed in this e-mail represent only myself and are not in any way to be taken as the words or opinions of my employer.
>
From: Derek Featherstone
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 7:01AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
Karl Groves wrote:
> You're saying that those with motor impairments can use the
> skip link as a method to more quickly get to in-context links?
> I've never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense.
Indeed it does... Like most things that are good for accessibility, they can
benefit all (remember the age-old curb cut story?).
Some mechanism to skip straight to the content can be useful for *anyone*,
not just visually impaired users, or users with temporary or permanent motor
impairments. A skip nav that allows you to go straight to the content helps
those who use keyboard navigation, whether they have any type of impairment
or not.
Temporary conditions are possible here too i.e., my mouse got fried, or it
stopped responding, a crash is imminent, etc etc etc... Two personal
anecdotes come to mind:
1. When I was still on dial up, and knew less about computers, I had a
hardware conflict between my mouse and my modem -- I could only use one at a
time. Troubleshooting and research took me to the Internet and a few support
sites. If I wanted to connect to these sites, I had to go mouseless so that
I could connect via modem..
2. I used keyboard navigation exclusively for almost a year in 1995, because
my mouse was fried (same computer!!) and I couldn't get the time to
purchase a new one in the week following, so it became habit. This could
happen to anyone, at anytime, without warning...
Skip nav type links move the focus to wherever you set the skip nav to point
to, so instead of tabbing through 30 links to get to the content and to be
able to follow any of the links that are in that content. If a skip nav
mechanism is first, you only have to tab to it, invoke it, and then you are
at the content, only a few short keystrokes later...
Best regards,
Derek.
--
Derek Featherstone = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
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From: holly marie
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 7:11AM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
From: "Karl Groves"
> OK, so to clarify -
> You're saying that those with motor impairments can use the skip link
as a method to more quickly get to in-context links?
> I've never thought of it that way, but it makes perfect sense.
Load a page that is full of links, and offers a skip link... try the
Gilder page... btw this does work nicely where there is css support,
and one does not wish the link to be hidden, though I do not believe
this is supported in all browsers(opera may not support this, safari for
mac users might not)
http://blog.tom.me.uk/2003/09/13/skipadeedoodah.php
It makes even more sense if you try this.
open a browser
use a motor challenged way to access the page links.
[1] use your less dominant hand, and one finger
[2] use a straw or pencil[unsharpened and eraser towards keys] via mouth
try some websites where you know they have hidden skip links. [try them
in browsers that have no bottom status bar info changing when focus on
link changes.] Can you tell when you have a skip to content link?
load www.amazon.com
maybe I see and I want that second link in the first paragraph?
how long or how many links will it take to get there?
An invisible skip to content link may not help this person, though a
visible link would be very helpful.
holly
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From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 7:28AM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
on 11/13/03 9:08 AM, holly marie at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = profoundly spewed forth
their very articulate thoughts:
> Load a page that is full of links, and offers a skip link... try the
> Gilder page... btw this does work nicely where there is css support,
> and one does not wish the link to be hidden, though I do not believe
> this is supported in all browsers(opera may not support this, safari for
> mac users might not)
> http://blog.tom.me.uk/2003/09/13/skipadeedoodah.php
Actually, it's not the CSS that's a problem. It's the fact that Safari does
not support tabbed browsing... (Unbelievable in a new browser)
I have a friend who is blind (uses JAWS) and she holds to the fact that
people who have disabilities are still smart and know how to find technology
that works for their particular disability. Meaning, a person that must tab
through a web page doesn't use Safari. Period. Because it doesn't support
tabbing... So it doesn't matter if Tom's technique doesn't work in Safari.
:)
It does work on IE 5.0, 5.5, and 6.0 (most commonly used) as well as any Moz
based browsers (Windows or Mac), so to me, it's a good method. Opera is such
an obscure browser with so many problems, that I'd be shocked to see that
someone with a motor disability was struggling through page after page
trying to force that browser to work. ;)
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." --Benjamin Franklin
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From: Stephanie Sullivan
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 7:33AM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
on 11/13/03 8:19 AM, Karl Groves at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = profoundly spewed
forth their very articulate thoughts:
> You're saying that those with motor impairments can use the skip link as a
> method to more quickly get to in-context links?
That's what I've been trying to say... And Andrew said it SO much better...
;) Screenreaders (used mainly for sight impairment) can use both visual and
Tom Gilder-type skip links... So can people who surf by tabbing through web
pages (used mainly for motor impairment ... Or as someone else pointed out,
when you break your mouse. ;).
The people who DON'T have any use for a skip link are the elderly who use a
mouse and are trying to click on the 1 x 1 skiplink (as the original example
said)... That would not happen because a person, surfing visually, using a
mouse, will not have any use for a skip link. They will place their mouse in
the page at the place they want to go to (or link they wan to click)...
This is all I've been trying to say from the beginning... ;) Thanks Andrew.
:D
Stephanie Sullivan
Contributing Author .: "Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004 Magic" :. New Riders
CommunityMX Team Member :: http://www.communitymx.com
Technical Editor .: "DreamweaverMX Killer Tips" :. New Riders
VioletSky Design :: http://www.violetsky.net
"Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative
effort." --Franklin D. Roosevelt
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From: julian.rickards
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 8:01AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
The problem with hiding the skip link (even it exists and will be found or
even made visible by tabbing) is that IMHO, if it is not immediately
visible, then a person may quickly tab past it in an effort to get to the
content or a link within the content. I used to think that hiding the "ugly"
skip link was best for the site design (and yet still good for the user) but
now I am thinking that having it visible is not such a bad thing - maybe
even dress it up a bit. Think of many bricks and mortar business that must
create accessible entrances or place wheelchair access symbols on washroom
doors and many other legislated features. At first, shoddy, wooden, poorly
constructed ramps were created but more recently, architects have found very
attractive means of incorporating accessibility into building designs.
Rather than fight about how to hide a skip link yet still maintaining its
availability, why not discuss means of dressing it up so that it looks nice
in the design?
Secondly, although I don't know much about search engines, there has been
numerous comments recently about hiding skip links and how search engines
may treat that as spam and black list the page. If this is true, we don't
want to recommend a method of hiding a skip link (on every page of a
client's site) and have the site black listed. Stephanie, your readers won't
appreciate learning that a technique will make their clients lose money.
If anyone can clearly identify how a search engine treats hidden information
and how it handles a page with hidden information, that would be most
appreciated.
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
>
From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 8:14AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
Has anyone tried the visible skip link at, say, http://www.acb.org? Tab to
"skip navigation links," press enter to follow the link and then tab again.
Oops! My version of IE on Windows XP puts the selection back on the skip
link. I believe it is a fundamental bug in IE. Basically, in-page links
don't work correctly.
It seems, as we discuss solutions like skipping navigation, we ought to be
sure they work as expected. The frustration of navigating the web must be
heightened and aggravated when presented "solutions" just don't work.
There are a couple of work-arounds that I know about. Make the named anchor,
actually an empty link - this is annoying for some but most reliable. It
seems also that when the named anchor is in a table cell, then tabbing
works.
Jim
Accessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.
Web Accessibility Tutorial: http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
From: holly marie
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 8:26AM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Sullivan"
> > Load a page that is full of links, and offers a skip link... try the
> > Gilder page... btw this does work nicely where there is css
support,
> > and one does not wish the link to be hidden, though I do not believe
> > this is supported in all browsers(opera may not support this, safari
for
> > mac users might not)
> > http://blog.tom.me.uk/2003/09/13/skipadeedoodah.php
>
> Actually, it's not the CSS that's a problem. It's the fact that Safari
does
> not support tabbed browsing... (Unbelievable in a new browser)
Actually Opera has some accessibility edges over the mainstream
browsers.
Shortcut keys, when learned, are in many cases more accessible, than
across keyboard combo stretches that some other browsers implement. The
sizing, some may argue, though I happen to believe resize on page is
nicer on two fronts... resize scheme is right up front in the GUI and
not buried in a menu dropdown. And there are more ranges.
So let's not toss the browser out completely. :)
personally I feel moz and its counterparts are far better than the rest,
though we have to think or realize that there are those that may be on
some systems and limited to what they can or cannot use... either
corporate dictates, educational rules on install of various software
apps, and then there are those that are maybe new to computers or
operating systems and will use whatever came bundled or working with
their system.
> I have a friend who is blind (uses JAWS) and she holds to the fact
that
> people who have disabilities are still smart and know how to find
technology
> that works for their particular disability. Meaning, a person that
must tab
> through a web page doesn't use Safari. Period. Because it doesn't
support
> tabbing... So it doesn't matter if Tom's technique doesn't work in
Safari.
Links are accessed differently in Opera than they are in other browsers.
Opera incorporates the use of spatial navigation, which is nice.
> It does work on IE 5.0, 5.5, and 6.0 (most commonly used) as well as
any Moz
> based browsers (Windows or Mac), so to me, it's a good method. Opera
is such
> an obscure browser with so many problems, that I'd be shocked to see
that
> someone with a motor disability was struggling through page after page
> trying to force that browser to work. ;)
No doubt it is a nice solution, though it is always be aware of who it
might not work for, or in which situations it may not work.
holly
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From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 9:43AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
Jim Thatcher points out the fundamental problem with the skip
navigation requirement of Section 508. Putting the whole burden on the author will
always lead to browser compatibility issues. It should be a shared
burden. Authors should be required to use some markup like the MAP
element (which can use text links) to indicated collections of related links on a pages (often
there are more than one navigation bar on a page) and browsers should be
required to allow users to either move keyboard focus over the links
contained in the MAP elements or move to the first link of a navigation
bar. This allows for users to not only skip over navigation bars, but
allows them to skip to a navigation bar if they waant to go to a different
link.
Jon
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Jim Thatcher wrote:
> Has anyone tried the visible skip link at, say, http://www.acb.org? Tab to
> "skip navigation links," press enter to follow the link and then tab again.
> Oops! My version of IE on Windows XP puts the selection back on the skip
> link. I believe it is a fundamental bug in IE. Basically, in-page links
> don't work correctly.
>
> It seems, as we discuss solutions like skipping navigation, we ought to be
> sure they work as expected. The frustration of navigating the web must be
> heightened and aggravated when presented "solutions" just don't work.
>
> There are a couple of work-arounds that I know about. Make the named anchor,
> actually an empty link - this is annoying for some but most reliable. It
> seems also that when the named anchor is in a table cell, then tabbing
> works.
>
> Jim
> Accessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.
> Web Accessibility Tutorial: http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
>
>
>
From: julian.rickards
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 9:53AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
For some reason, this reply to Jim Thatcher's message went directly to him
instead of the list: here it is for the rest of you.
Jules
-----
By named anchor, do you mean <a name="linkname"></a>?
I was told recently that this construct is not valid, especially if you are
using XHTML. The name attribute has been replaced by the id attribute. When
I thought about what I was told, I realized that the link to the anchor is
preceeded by a "#" which is a symbol representing an id. Now, when I create
a skip link (or any link to a named anchor), I use:
<a href="#content">Skip to content</a>
and then further down in the code, I will use:
<h1 id="content">Heading</h1>
and the link works (not surprisingly once I thought about it).
---------------------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards
Digital Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publications Services Section
Ontario Ministry of Northern Development and Mines
Phone: (705) 670-5608
Fax: (705) 670-5690
>
From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 10:17AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
I don't think the 508 provision on skip navigation is puts the whole burden
on the author any more than the requirement to provide text equivalents.
I totally agree that a structured approach makes much more sense and I would
be delighted to see authors and browsers collaborate to provide such cool
navigation.
For now, however, I look for techniques to allow users to jump around the
page. The major screen readers and HPR have, somehow, fixed the problem I
raised (skip links often don't work with the tab key); so you might say that
the user agents and author team up to make it work. But often, as I
indicated with acb.org, it doesn't work without the AT.
Jim
Accessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.
Web Accessibility Tutorial: http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 10:34AM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
Including headers (H1-H6) for section titles is also a useful way to
implement skip navigation bars. Screen readers and the Opera Browser allow
user to navigate header markup.
Jon
At 11:11 AM 11/13/2003 -0600, Jim Thatcher wrote:
>I don't think the 508 provision on skip navigation is puts the whole
>burden on the author any more than the requirement to provide text equivalents.
>
>
>
>I totally agree that a structured approach makes much more sense and I
>would be delighted to see authors and browsers collaborate to provide such
>cool navigation.
>
>
>
>For now, however, I look for techniques to allow users to jump around the
>page. The major screen readers and HPR have, somehow, fixed the problem I
>raised (skip links often don't work with the tab key); so you might say
>that the user agents and author team up to make it work. But often, as I
>indicated with acb.org, it doesn't work without the AT.
>
>
>
>Jim
>
>Accessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.
>
>Web Accessibility Tutorial:
>http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
>
>
>
>
>
From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Nov 13 2003 1:40PM
Subject: RE: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | Next message →
Headings (H1...H6) are wonderful methods for jumping around the key sections
of a web page - WITH A SCREEN READER. The new "H" commands make that
navigation really terrific. In IE on Windows, they are no help with the
keyboard.
I was trying to point out that without a screen reader it is often the case
that visible skip links (any in-page links) do not work from the keyboard
(with Windows and IE). When you check out http://acb.org remember to TAB,
ENTER (to follow the skip link) (visual focus makes it look like it works)
BUT TAB again and you are back at the skip link.
Jim
Accessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.
Web Accessibility Tutorial: http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
From: Mark Magennis
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2003 6:56AM
Subject: Re: Visible skip navigation links, was: good example
← Previous message | No next message
> The people who DON'T have any use for a skip link are the
> elderly who use a mouse ... a person, surfing visually, using a
> mouse, will not have any use for a skip link.
I kind of disagree with this. There are issues to do with what the skip
navigation link is used for and what Web users with low vision need in order
to efficiently and effectively browse a page. Users with low vision, many of
them elderly, often cannot view pages at normal magnification. They have to
either increase the text size using their browser controls or use screen
magnification software. I have watched people using anything between 2 times
and 16 times magnification. In these cases, there is considerably less
screen area in view at once and what the user is looking at is a small
window that they can move around the large page. Of course, this is what
everybody is doing really, but most of us have a screen-sized window which
is as wide as the page and often nearly as long. But try looking at your web
pages through a square cut-out one sixteenth the size of your screen and you
will get an impression of what it can be like for some people. In this case,
scrolling becomes a significant burden and finding information on the page
is often a case of wandering around until you come across it. This can be a
very disorienting experience and, due to this disorientation, users with low
vision often do not become particularly comfortable or proficient at it. If
you watch the screen exploration behaviour of many such users, you will be
struck by how much of the page they simply do not visit, how little
knowledge they build up of what they have and have not visited and how poor
their impression of the page contents and layout is. It can therefore help
greatly if there are links at the top of the page to jump to the different
sections or 'chunks' of the page, acting like a table of contents for the
page.
The reason I don't completely disagree with Stephanie is that she is talking
specifically about a link to skip past the navigation, helping the user
avoid a block that is repeated on every page. The navigation is, or at least
should be, consistently the same block of screen area on every page.
Therefore, after finding their way past it once or twice, users might be
expected to be able to learn how big it is and be able to scroll past it
without too much difficulty. In practice, however, many users fail to learn
this kind of thing, so I still think that a link would provide a more
efficient and effective navigation method.
This raises interesting questions about the role of the skip navigation link
as opposed to the more general idea of a within-page jump-to-content link. A
skip navigation link is like a table of contents for the page with a single
entry, except that the entry is presented as pointing past something rather
than pointing to something. I wonder whether this is a good idea. Pages
often have more than one 'chunk' on them and users (vision impaired or
otherwise) are primarily interested in going to particular chunks. A good
example is a page of news. There may be a headlines section, a sports
section, a politics section, a War in Iraq section, etc. Add to these the
navigation section, the advertising section, the free offers section, etc.
and you have a lot of potential points of interest. Most of the time, users
do not want to skip one of these sections, but to go to a specific section.
Think of yourself with a paper newspaper. Do you think "I'll go past the
main headlines, home news and international news sections" or do you think
"I'll go to the sports section" or "I'll go to the crossword". On a web
page, the exception perhaps is the omnipresent navigation block, which users
often want to skip - but only if they know that having skipped it they will
be where they want to be. If there is only one other chunk of interest on
the page - a content block - then this may work, but this may be a special
restricted case.
I am therefore of the opinion (still very open to argument) that it would be
better to have a number of same-page jump-to-content links at the start of
each page (a table of contents for the page), than a single skip-navigation
link. This would, I think, be a great help for screen reader users, mouse
users with low vision and sighted keyboard-only users. So it should
therefore be visible.
Mark
Dr. Mark Magennis - EU Projects
National Council for the Blind of Ireland
Whitworth Road, Dublin 9, Republic of Ireland
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = tel: +353 (0)71 914 7464
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