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Thread: Intro and question

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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Beth Hanes
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 10:55AM
Subject: Intro and question
No previous message | Next message →

Hello,

I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned a lot
from reading your posts. Thanks!

I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsible for
developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very
committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still to learn
on this topic.

In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one
graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site, linking to
the accessible site from the main site.

However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, I discovered
that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who will use the
accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users is restricted to
using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want to offend
or demean anyone who uses our site.

My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies both the
desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edge website
and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have other accessibility
issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will take me quite
awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built as soon
as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints, not
the least of which is utter inaccessibility.

Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled web
community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population really
feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid the
two-site approach?

Thank you in advance for any input!

Beth Hanes
Office Manager
University Honors Program
MSC06 3890
1 University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
(505) 277-4213
http://www.unm.edu/~honors

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 11:06AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
← Previous message | Next message →

On Wednesday 23 June 2004 12:58 pm, honorsgurl wrote:
> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled web
> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population really
> feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid the
> two-site approach?

Hi honorsgurl,

In a word, don't do it. Apart from how members of the disabled community might
feel about a separate accessible site, will you be able to guarantee that
your two sites will always contain the same info? When you're no longer
involved, will those who take over from you continue your practices? Will you
always remember to update both sites?

Regards,

Seth

From: Michael Goddard
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 11:20AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
← Previous message | Next message →

One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have two separate
sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time to maintain and
twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site but not the
secondary site etc.)

I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing a visually
pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you use the
right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browsers support for
and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keep the
presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allows you to
manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correct content
which should transport well within both visual browsers and text based
browsers and readers.

HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face when and if
you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit off topic on
your question.

Michael Goddard
Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW
TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.
8153 Garnet Drive
Dayton, OH. 45458
phone: 937.438.3434
fax: 937.438.3453
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com


-----Original Message-----
From: honorsgurl [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question



Hello,

I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned a lot
from reading your posts. Thanks!

I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsible for
developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very
committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still to learn
on this topic.

In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one
graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site, linking to
the accessible site from the main site.

However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, I discovered
that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who will use the
accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users is restricted to
using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want to offend
or demean anyone who uses our site.

My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies both the
desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edge website
and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have other accessibility
issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will take me quite
awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built as soon
as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints, not
the least of which is utter inaccessibility.

Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled web
community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population really
feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid the
two-site approach?

Thank you in advance for any input!

Beth Hanes
Office Manager
University Honors Program
MSC06 3890
1 University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
(505) 277-4213
http://www.unm.edu/~honors

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Jill Lenz
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 11:31AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
← Previous message | Next message →

From another developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . . .
been there, done that. Don't do it.

Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the way to go these
days. There's lots of good tutorials out there on the subject.

michael wrote:

> One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have two separate
> sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time to maintain and
> twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site but not the
> secondary site etc.)
>
> I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing a visually
> pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you use the
> right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browsers support for
> and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keep the
> presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allows you to
> manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correct content
> which should transport well within both visual browsers and text based
> browsers and readers.
>
> HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face when and if
> you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit off topic on
> your question.
>
> Michael Goddard
> Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW
> TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.
> 8153 Garnet Drive
> Dayton, OH. 45458
> phone: 937.438.3434
> fax: 937.438.3453
> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: honorsgurl [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned a lot
> from reading your posts. Thanks!
>
> I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsible for
> developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very
> committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still to learn
> on this topic.
>
> In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one
> graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site, linking to
> the accessible site from the main site.
>
> However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, I discovered
> that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who will use the
> accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users is restricted to
> using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want to offend
> or demean anyone who uses our site.
>
> My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies both the
> desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edge website
> and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have other accessibility
> issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will take me quite
> awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built as soon
> as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints, not
> the least of which is utter inaccessibility.
>
> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled web
> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population really
> feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid the
> two-site approach?
>
> Thank you in advance for any input!
>
> Beth Hanes
> Office Manager
> University Honors Program
> MSC06 3890
> 1 University of New Mexico
> Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
> (505) 277-4213
> http://www.unm.edu/~honors
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

--
Jill Lenz
College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences
1601 Campus Delivery
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523-1601

Office of the Dean - Instructional Technology
http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/
Office: Physiology 109
InTech Lab: Physiology 101
voice: 970-491-6585
fax: 970-491-2250
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Mary Martinson Grossnickle, Martinson Training
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 2:00PM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
← Previous message | Next message →

Another caution in developing a separate version is that many times the
separate version is developed for screen reader users. This is not the only
disability community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" site might
not be truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen reader version.
The site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.

A resource which might help, especially if you need to justify your decision
*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only Version" in
"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing Accessible
Websites."

"Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,
Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,
Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488

-----Original Message-----
From: jill.lenz [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and question



From another developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . . .
been there, done that. Don't do it.

Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the way to go these
days. There's lots of good tutorials out there on the subject.

michael wrote:

> One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have two separate
> sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time to maintain
and
> twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site but not the
> secondary site etc.)
>
> I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing a visually
> pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you use the
> right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browsers support for
> and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keep the
> presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allows you to
> manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correct content
> which should transport well within both visual browsers and text based
> browsers and readers.
>
> HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face when and
if
> you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit off topic on
> your question.
>
> Michael Goddard
> Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW
> TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.
> 8153 Garnet Drive
> Dayton, OH. 45458
> phone: 937.438.3434
> fax: 937.438.3453
> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: honorsgurl [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned a lot
> from reading your posts. Thanks!
>
> I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsible for
> developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very
> committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still to learn
> on this topic.
>
> In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one
> graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site, linking
to
> the accessible site from the main site.
>
> However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, I discovered
> that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who will use
the
> accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users is restricted
to
> using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want to offend
> or demean anyone who uses our site.
>
> My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies both the
> desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edge website
> and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have other
accessibility
> issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will take me
quite
> awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built as soon
> as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints, not
> the least of which is utter inaccessibility.
>
> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled web
> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population really
> feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid the
> two-site approach?
>
> Thank you in advance for any input!
>
> Beth Hanes
> Office Manager
> University Honors Program
> MSC06 3890
> 1 University of New Mexico
> Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
> (505) 277-4213
> http://www.unm.edu/~honors
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

--
Jill Lenz
College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences
1601 Campus Delivery
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523-1601

Office of the Dean - Instructional Technology
http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/
Office: Physiology 109
InTech Lab: Physiology 101
voice: 970-491-6585
fax: 970-491-2250
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Katharine Whitelaw
Date: Thu, Jun 24 2004 9:22AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
← Previous message | Next message →

Check out the CSS Zen Garden at www.zengarden.com . There are dozens of
beautiful and accessible web designs on this site. When you construct
your site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there is no
need for two sites.

Katy Whitelaw

>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >>>

Another caution in developing a separate version is that many times
the
separate version is developed for screen reader users. This is not the
only
disability community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" site
might
not be truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen reader
version.
The site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.

A resource which might help, especially if you need to justify your
decision
*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only Version"
in
"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing Accessible
Websites."

"Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,
Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,
Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488

-----Original Message-----
From: jill.lenz [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and question



From another developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . .
..
been there, done that. Don't do it.

Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the way to go these
days. There's lots of good tutorials out there on the subject.

michael wrote:

> One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have two
separate
> sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time to
maintain
and
> twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site but
not the
> secondary site etc.)
>
> I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing a
visually
> pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you use
the
> right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browsers
support for
> and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keep
the
> presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allows
you to
> manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correct
content
> which should transport well within both visual browsers and text
based
> browsers and readers.
>
> HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face when
and
if
> you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit off
topic on
> your question.
>
> Michael Goddard
> Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW
> TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.
> 8153 Garnet Drive
> Dayton, OH. 45458
> phone: 937.438.3434
> fax: 937.438.3453
> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: honorsgurl [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned a
lot
> from reading your posts. Thanks!
>
> I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsible
for
> developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very
> committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still to
learn
> on this topic.
>
> In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one
> graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site,
linking
to
> the accessible site from the main site.
>
> However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, I
discovered
> that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who will
use
the
> accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users is
restricted
to
> using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want to
offend
> or demean anyone who uses our site.
>
> My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies both
the
> desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edge
website
> and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have other
accessibility
> issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will take
me
quite
> awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built as
soon
> as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints,
not
> the least of which is utter inaccessibility.
>
> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled
web
> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population
really
> feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid
the
> two-site approach?
>
> Thank you in advance for any input!
>
> Beth Hanes
> Office Manager
> University Honors Program
> MSC06 3890
> 1 University of New Mexico
> Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
> (505) 277-4213
> http://www.unm.edu/~honors
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


--
Jill Lenz
College of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences
1601 Campus Delivery
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523-1601

Office of the Dean - Instructional Technology
http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/
Office: Physiology 109
InTech Lab: Physiology 101
voice: 970-491-6585
fax: 970-491-2250
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Rachael Zubal
Date: Thu, Jun 24 2004 9:49AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
← Previous message | Next message →






Very good example. CSS can be made to allow for a simple, HTML
version without all the work involved. We're working with a new web
designer who has this in mind so that we can make a nice, pleasant looking site
while at the same time making our content completely accessible. the Zen
garden site is amazing, too! I've seen many of the designs and am astouded
by the beauty.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------Rachael
A. Zubal-RuggieriInformation Coordinator, Center on Human
PolicyCoordinator of Computer & Technical Applications, Early Childhood
Direction CenterEditorial Staff, Mental RetardationSyracuse
University805 South Crouse AvenueSyracuse, NY
13244-2280315-443-2761E-mail: <A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = -mail: <A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <A
href="http://thechp.syr.edu">http://thechp.syr.edu<;A
href="http://ecdc.syr.edu">http://ecdc.syr.edu

"Out of the strain of Doing, into the peace of the Done."--Julia Louise
Woodruff

"I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate
him."--Booker T. Washington>;>;>; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
06/24/04 11:24AM >;>;>;Check out the CSS Zen Garden at <A
href="http://www.zengarden.com/">www.zengarden.com . There are dozens
ofbeautiful and accessible web designs on this site. When you
constructyour site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there is
noneed for two sites.Katy Whitelaw>;>;>;
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >;>;>;Another caution in
developing a separate version is that many timestheseparate version is
developed for screen reader users. This is not theonlydisability
community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" sitemightnot be
truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen readerversion.The
site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.A resource which
might help, especially if you need to justify yourdecision*not* to
maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only
Version"in"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing
AccessibleWebsites.""Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim
Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael
Burks, Paul Bohman,Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN:
1590591488-----Original Message-----From: jill.lenz [<A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:34 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and questionFrom another
developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . ..been there, done
that. Don't do it.Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the
way to go thesedays. There's lots of good tutorials out there on the
subject.michael wrote:>; One a side note (from a developer's
perspective) if you have twoseparate>; sites, it is just going to take
you twice the amount of time tomaintainand>; twice the amount of
chance of error (updated page on main site butnot the>; secondary site
etc.)>;>; I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in
developing avisually>; pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible
especially if you usethe>; right tools and plan ahead. With the
majority of the browserssupport for>; and rendering of XHTML/CSS being
stronger, you will be able to keepthe>; presentation separate from
content pretty well which in turn allowsyou to>; manipulate the visual
side via CSS and create semantically correctcontent>; which should
transport well within both visual browsers and textbased>; browsers
and readers.>;>; HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what
you will face whenandif>; you choose two separate sites. And
apologies for going a bit offtopic on>; your question.>;>;
Michael Goddard>; Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW>; TDH Marketing
&amp;amp; Communications, Inc.>; 8153 Garnet Drive>; Dayton, OH.
45458>; phone: 937.438.3434>; fax: 937.438.3453>; email:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; web: <A
href="http://www.tdh-marketing.com/">http://www.tdh-marketing.com
>;>;>; -----Original Message----->; From: honorsgurl [<A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] >; Sent:
Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM>; To: WebAIM Discussion List>;
Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question>;>;>;>;
Hello,>;>; I've been lurking on this list for a little while and
have learned alot>; from reading your posts. Thanks!>;>;
I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm
responsiblefor>; developing the site for our program at the
university, and I'm very>; committed to making the site fully accessible.
I have much still tolearn>; on this topic.>;>; In
considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one>;
graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics
site,linkingto>; the accessible site from the main
site.>;>; However, in reading some things on the web about this
idea, Idiscovered>; that some people consider this approach demeaning
to those who willusethe>; accessible site--sort of as if one
population of web users isrestrictedto>; using a _back door_ to
enter the site. Naturally, I do not want tooffend>; or demean anyone
who uses our site.>;>; My ultimate goal is to create a single
website that satisfies boththe>; desire of a visually-oriented
population to access a cutting edgewebsite>; and the desire of those
who are vision impaired or have otheraccessibility>; issues to be able
to access the site's content. But that will takemequite>; awhile
to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built assoon>;
as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many
standpoints,not>; the least of which is utter
inaccessibility.>;>; Can anyone give me some insight as to the
feelings of the disabledweb>; community about separate, accessible
sites? Does this populationreally>; feel demeaned when using these
sites? Would you advise that I avoidthe>; two-site
approach?>;>; Thank you in advance for any input!>;>;
Beth Hanes>; Office Manager>; University Honors Program>;
MSC06 3890>; 1 University of New Mexico>; Albuquerque, NM
87131-0001>; (505) 277-4213>; <A
href="http://www.unm.edu/~honors">http://www.unm.edu/~honors
>;>; ---->; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <A
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/">http://www.webaim.org/discussion/>;;>;
---->; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <A
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/">http://www.webaim.org/discussion/--Jill
LenzCollege of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences1601 Campus
DeliveryColorado State UniversityFort Collins, CO
80523-1601Office of the Dean - Instructional Technology<A
href="http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/">http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/
Office: Physiology 109InTech Lab:
Physiology 101voice:
970-491-6585fax:
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From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Jun 24 2004 9:55AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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Recognize that not all of the designs on
CSSZenGarden.com are accessible - some used the FIR technique, colour contrast
may be suspect on some. However, CSSZenGarden.com does show that CSS can be
employed to create wonderful, awe-inspiring designs and, with the avoidance of
some techniques, CSS and HTML can create both accessible content and beautiful
design.

Julian Rickards <FONT
face=Georgia color=#0000ff>A/Digitial Publications Distribution
Coordinator Publication Services
Section, Ministry of Northern
Development and Mines, Vox:
705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960

<FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----From: razubal
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:52
AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro
and question
Very good example. CSS can be made to allow for a simple, HTML
version without all the work involved. We're working with a new web
designer who has this in mind so that we can make a nice, pleasant looking
site while at the same time making our content completely accessible.
the Zen garden site is amazing, too! I've seen many of the designs and
am astouded by the beauty.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------Rachael
A. Zubal-RuggieriInformation Coordinator, Center on Human
PolicyCoordinator of Computer &amp;amp; Technical Applications, Early
Childhood Direction CenterEditorial Staff, Mental RetardationSyracuse
University805 South Crouse AvenueSyracuse, NY
13244-2280315-443-2761E-mail: <A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = -mail: <A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <A
href="http://thechp.syr.edu">http://thechp.syr.edu<;A
href="http://ecdc.syr.edu">http://ecdc.syr.edu

"Out of the strain of Doing, into the peace of the Done."--Julia
Louise Woodruff

"I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate
him."--Booker T. Washington>;>;>; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
06/24/04 11:24AM >;>;>;Check out the CSS Zen Garden at <A
href="http://www.zengarden.com/">www.zengarden.com . There are
dozens ofbeautiful and accessible web designs on this site. When you
constructyour site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there
is noneed for two sites.Katy Whitelaw>;>;>;
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >;>;>;Another caution in
developing a separate version is that many timestheseparate version is
developed for screen reader users. This is not theonlydisability
community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" sitemightnot be
truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen
readerversion.The site might still be inaccessible for other
audiences.A resource which might help, especially if you need to
justify yourdecision*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a
Text-Only Version"in"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book
"Constructing AccessibleWebsites.""Constructing Accessible
Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga,
Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,Publisher: APress; Reprint edition
(July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488-----Original Message-----From:
jill.lenz [<A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:34 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and questionFrom another
developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . ..been there,
done that. Don't do it.Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS.
It's the way to go thesedays. There's lots of good tutorials out there on
the subject.michael wrote:>; One a side note (from a
developer's perspective) if you have twoseparate>; sites, it is just
going to take you twice the amount of time tomaintainand>; twice
the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site butnot
the>; secondary site etc.)>;>; I honestly don't see why you
would have a problem in developing avisually>; pleasing site that is
also steadfast accessible especially if you usethe>; right tools and
plan ahead. With the majority of the browserssupport for>; and
rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keepthe>;
presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allowsyou
to>; manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically
correctcontent>; which should transport well within both visual
browsers and textbased>; browsers and readers.>;>; HTH
with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face
whenandif>; you choose two separate sites. And apologies
for going a bit offtopic on>; your question.>;>; Michael
Goddard>; Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW>; TDH Marketing &amp;amp;
Communications, Inc.>; 8153 Garnet Drive>; Dayton, OH.
45458>; phone: 937.438.3434>; fax: 937.438.3453>; email:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; web: <A
href="http://www.tdh-marketing.com/">http://www.tdh-marketing.com
>;>;>; -----Original Message----->; From: honorsgurl
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] >; Sent:
Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM>; To: WebAIM Discussion List>;
Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question>;>;>;>;
Hello,>;>; I've been lurking on this list for a little while and
have learned alot>; from reading your posts. Thanks!>;>;
I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm
responsiblefor>; developing the site for our program at the
university, and I'm very>; committed to making the site fully
accessible. I have much still tolearn>; on this
topic.>;>; In considering accessibility, my first thought was to
create one>; graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics
site,linkingto>; the accessible site from the main
site.>;>; However, in reading some things on the web about this
idea, Idiscovered>; that some people consider this approach
demeaning to those who willusethe>; accessible site--sort of as
if one population of web users isrestrictedto>; using a _back
door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want tooffend>; or
demean anyone who uses our site.>;>; My ultimate goal is to create
a single website that satisfies boththe>; desire of a
visually-oriented population to access a cutting edgewebsite>; and
the desire of those who are vision impaired or have
otheraccessibility>; issues to be able to access the site's content.
But that will takemequite>; awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and
I must get this website built assoon>; as possible, as the current
site is a disaster from many standpoints,not>; the least of which is
utter inaccessibility.>;>; Can anyone give me some insight as to
the feelings of the disabledweb>; community about separate,
accessible sites? Does this populationreally>; feel demeaned when
using these sites? Would you advise that I avoidthe>; two-site
approach?>;>; Thank you in advance for any input!>;>;
Beth Hanes>; Office Manager>; University Honors Program>;
MSC06 3890>; 1 University of New Mexico>; Albuquerque, NM
87131-0001>; (505) 277-4213>; <A
href="http://www.unm.edu/~honors">http://www.unm.edu/~honors
>;>; ---->; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <A
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/">http://www.webaim.org/discussion/>;;>;
---->; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <A
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/">http://www.webaim.org/discussion/--Jill
LenzCollege of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences1601 Campus
DeliveryColorado State UniversityFort Collins, CO
80523-1601Office of the Dean - Instructional Technology<A
href="http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/">http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/
Office: Physiology 109InTech Lab:
Physiology 101voice:
970-491-6585fax:
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href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/">http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
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