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Thread: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 25.06.2004.

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From: paul.creedy
Date: Mon, Jun 28 2004 4:39PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 25.06.2004.
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I've just started my first attempt at CSS layout with XHTML.  I've also tried to add accesskeys to the common menu items. 
 
It was hard going at first and XHTML gave me loads of errors which I think I've now identified.  Next I want to improve accessibility.
 
I'd welcome any suggestions on improving it's accessibility.
 
The site is here at the moment: http://d476047.r39.rcthosting.com/
 
Paul Creedy
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
WebAIM Discussion List Digest 25.06.2004.------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Intro and questionDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:22:03 -0600Check out the CSS Zen Garden at www.zengarden.com . There are dozens ofbeautiful and accessible web designs on this site. When you constructyour site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there is noneed for two sites.Katy Whitelaw>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >>>Another caution in developing a separate version is that many timestheseparate version is developed for screen reader users. This is not theonlydisability community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" sitemightnot be truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen
readerversion.The site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.A resource which might help, especially if you need to justify yourdecision*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only Version"in"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing AccessibleWebsites.""Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488-----Original Message-----From: jill.lenz [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:34 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and questionFrom another developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . ...been there, done that. Don't do it.Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the way to go thesedays. There's lots of good
tutorials out there on the subject.michael wrote:> One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have twoseparate> sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time tomaintainand> twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site butnot the> secondary site etc.)>> I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing avisually> pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you usethe> right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browserssupport for> and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keepthe> presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allowsyou to> manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correctcontent> which should transport well within both visual browsers and textbased> browsers and
readers.>> HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face whenandif> you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit offtopic on> your question.>> Michael Goddard> Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW> TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.> 8153 Garnet Drive> Dayton, OH. 45458> phone: 937.438.3434> fax: 937.438.3453> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com >>> -----Original Message-----> From: honorsgurl [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM> To: WebAIM Discussion List> Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question>>>> Hello,>> I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned alot> from reading your posts. Thanks!>> I've done a little web design in the past, but now
I'm responsiblefor> developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very> committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still tolearn> on this topic.>> In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one> graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site,linkingto> the accessible site from the main site.>> However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, Idiscovered> that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who willusethe> accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users isrestrictedto> using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want tooffend> or demean anyone who uses our site.>> My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies boththe> desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting
edgewebsite> and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have otheraccessibility> issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will takemequite> awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built assoon> as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints,not> the least of which is utter inaccessibility.>> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabledweb> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this populationreally> feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoidthe> two-site approach?>> Thank you in advance for any input!>> Beth Hanes> Office Manager> University Honors Program> MSC06 3890> 1 University of New Mexico> Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001> (505) 277-4213> http://www.unm.edu/~honors
>> ----> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/&;amp;gt;> ----> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/--Jill LenzCollege of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences1601 Campus DeliveryColorado State UniversityFort Collins, CO 80523-1601Office of the Dean - Instructional Technologyhttp://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/ Office: Physiology 109InTech Lab: Physiology 101voice: 970-491-6585fax: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/ ----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Intro and question - CSS Zengarden URLDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:33:13 -0600Correction -
www.csszengarden.com. Sorry!>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/24/2004 10:24:35 AM >>>Check out the CSS Zen Garden at www.zengarden.com . There are dozensofbeautiful and accessible web designs on this site. When you constructyour site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there is noneed for two sites.Katy Whitelaw>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >>>Another caution in developing a separate version is that many timestheseparate version is developed for screen reader users. This is not theonlydisability community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" sitemightnot be truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen readerversion.The site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.A resource which might help, especially if you need to justify yourdecision*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only
Version"in"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing AccessibleWebsites.""Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488-----Original Message-----From: jill.lenz [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:34 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and questionFrom another developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . ...been there, done that. Don't do it.Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the way to go thesedays. There's lots of good tutorials out there on the subject.michael wrote:> One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have twoseparate> sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time
tomaintainand> twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site butnot the> secondary site etc.)>> I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing avisually> pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if youusethe> right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browserssupport for> and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keepthe> presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allowsyou to> manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correctcontent> which should transport well within both visual browsers and textbased> browsers and readers.>> HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face whenandif> you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit offtopic on> your question.>>
Michael Goddard> Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW> TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.> 8153 Garnet Drive> Dayton, OH. 45458> phone: 937.438.3434> fax: 937.438.3453> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com >>> -----Original Message-----> From: honorsgurl [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM> To: WebAIM Discussion List> Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question>>>> Hello,>> I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned alot> from reading your posts. Thanks!>> I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsiblefor> developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very> committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still tolearn> on this topic.>> In
considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one> graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site,linkingto> the accessible site from the main site.>> However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, Idiscovered> that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who willusethe> accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users isrestrictedto> using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want tooffend> or demean anyone who uses our site.>> My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies boththe> desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edgewebsite> and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have otheraccessibility> issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will takemequite> awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and
I must get this website builtassoon> as possible, as the current site is a disaster from manystandpoints,not> the least of which is utter inaccessibility.>> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabledweb> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this populationreally> feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoidthe> two-site approach?>> Thank you in advance for any input!>> Beth Hanes> Office Manager> University Honors Program> MSC06 3890> 1 University of New Mexico> Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001> (505) 277-4213> http://www.unm.edu/~honors >> ----> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/&;amp;gt;> ----> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/--Jill LenzCollege
of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences1601 Campus DeliveryColorado State UniversityFort Collins, CO 80523-1601Office of the Dean - Instructional Technologyhttp://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/ Office: Physiology 109InTech Lab: Physiology 101voice: 970-491-6585fax: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/ ----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/ ----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Intro and questionDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:49:24 -0600Very good example.  CSS can be made to allow for a simple, HTML version without all the work involved.  We're working with a new web designer who has this in
mind so that we can make a nice, pleasant looking site while at the same time making our content completely accessible.  the Zen garden site is amazing, too!  I've seen many of the designs and am astouded by the beauty. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------Rachael A. Zubal-RuggieriInformation Coordinator, Center on Human PolicyCoordinator of Computer & Technical Applications, Early Childhood Direction CenterEditorial Staff, Mental RetardationSyracuse University805 South Crouse AvenueSyracuse, NY  13244-2280315-443-2761E-mail:  = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = -mail:  = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = p://thechp.syr.eduhttp://ecdc.syr.edu&;amp;nbsp;"Out of the strain of Doing, into the peace of the Done."--Julia Louise Woodruff "I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him."--Booker T. Washington>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 06/24/04
11:24AM >>>Check out the CSS Zen Garden at www.zengarden.com .  There are dozens ofbeautiful and accessible web designs on this site.  When you constructyour site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there is noneed for two sites.Katy Whitelaw>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >>>Another caution in developing a separate version is that many timestheseparate version is developed for screen reader users. This is not theonlydisability community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" sitemightnot be truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen readerversion.The site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.A resource which might help, especially if you need to justify yourdecision*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only Version"in"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing AccessibleWebsites.""Constructing Accessible
Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488-----Original Message-----From: jill.lenz [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:34 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and questionFrom another developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . ..been there, done that. Don't do it.Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the way to go thesedays. There's lots of good tutorials out there on the subject.michael wrote:> One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have twoseparate> sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time tomaintainand> twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site butnot the> secondary site etc.)>> I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing
avisually> pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you usethe> right tools and plan ahead.  With the majority of the browserssupport for> and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keepthe> presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allowsyou to> manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correctcontent> which should transport well within both visual browsers and textbased> browsers and readers.>> HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face whenandif> you choose two separate sites.  And apologies for going a bit offtopic on> your question.>> Michael Goddard> Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW> TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.> 8153 Garnet Drive> Dayton, OH.  45458> phone: 937.438.3434> fax: 937.438.3453> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > web:
http://www.tdh-marketing.com >>> -----Original Message-----> From: honorsgurl [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:59 PM> To: WebAIM Discussion List> Subject: [WebAIM] Intro and question>>>> Hello,>> I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned alot> from reading your posts. Thanks!>> I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsiblefor> developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very> committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still tolearn> on this topic.>> In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one> graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site,linkingto> the accessible site from the main site.>> However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, Idiscovered> that some people consider this approach
demeaning to those who willusethe> accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users isrestrictedto> using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want tooffend> or demean anyone who uses our site.>> My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies boththe> desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edgewebsite> and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have otheraccessibility> issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will takemequite> awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built assoon> as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints,not> the least of which is utter inaccessibility.>> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabledweb> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this populationreally> feel demeaned when using these
sites? Would you advise that I avoidthe> two-site approach?>> Thank you in advance for any input!>> Beth Hanes> Office Manager> University Honors Program> MSC06 3890> 1 University of New Mexico> Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001> (505) 277-4213> http://www.unm.edu/~honors >> ----> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/&;amp;gt;> ----> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/--Jill LenzCollege of Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences1601 Campus DeliveryColorado State UniversityFort Collins, CO 80523-1601Office of the Dean - Instructional Technologyhttp://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/intech/lab/ Office:      Physiology 109InTech Lab:  Physiology 101voice:       970-491-6585fax:         = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ----To
subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/ ----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ect: Re: Intro and questionDate: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:55:44 -0600Recognize that not all of the designs on CSSZenGarden.com are accessible - some used the FIR technique, colour contrast may be suspect on some. However, CSSZenGarden.com does show that CSS can be employed to create wonderful, awe-inspiring designs and, with the avoidance of some techniques, CSS and HTML can create both accessible content and beautiful design. Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution Coordinator Publication Services Section, Ministry of Northern Development and
Mines, Vox: 705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original Message-----From: razubal [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:52 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Intro and questionVery good example.  CSS can be made to allow for a simple, HTML version without all the work involved.  We're working with a new web designer who has this in mind so that we can make a nice, pleasant looking site while at the same time making our content completely accessible.  the Zen garden site is amazing, too!  I've seen many of the designs and am astouded by the beauty. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------Rachael A. Zubal-RuggieriInformation Coordinator, Center on Human PolicyCoordinator of Computer & Technical Applications, Early === message truncated ===
ALL-NEW
Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many
all-new ways to express yourself

From: Chris Price
Date: Mon, Jun 28 2004 6:40PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 25.06.2004.
← Previous message | Next message →

Paul

Providing access keys is not a straightforward accessibility issue.

For one, there is some debate as to whether they are useful or not.

Not all browsers support them and the use of letters can be problematic.
Also, in your guide to access keys your instruction is to press alt+ whereas
on the Mac you press control+.

Is the link in the top left a permanent fixture? If so, its a bit too
prominent. After all, your site is about a community not web accessibility.
Likewise, the heading Navigation makes the page a little mechanic. Why are
NEWS and EVENTS navigation when HOME and LEISURE aren't.

Talking of headings, you haven't got any on the home page. That's an
important accessibility issue as it gives the page structure.

The titles on your 2 topic links are wasting my time telling me something
that's totally obvious. If you want to tell your visitor they're links you
could just underline them.

As well as accessibility, have you considered usability issues such as: when
your in Leisure, the LEISURE button's behaviour changes. Once I'm in
Leisure, there are no clues as to where I am.

Jakob Neilsen's alertbox is excellent for tips on usability.
I found
http://e-government.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Resources/WebHandbookIndex1Article/
fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4000092&chk=XHiT3L worth looking at re: access keys and
accessibility in general.

If you're serious about XHTML you might want to try building to XHTML strict
if only because it makes you disciplined in your coding.

Good look with the site, its got a good feel about it.

--
Chris Price
Choctaw Media Ltd
Choctaw.co.uk

On 28/6/04 11:35 pm, "paul.creedy" wrote:

> I've just started my first attempt at CSS layout with XHTML. I've also tried
> to add accesskeys to the common menu items.
>
> It was hard going at first and XHTML gave me loads of errors which I think
> I've now identified. Next I want to improve accessibility.
>
> I'd welcome any suggestions on improving it's accessibility.
>
> The site is here at the moment: http://d476047.r39.rcthosting.com/
>
> Paul Creedy

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Tue, Jun 29 2004 8:07AM
Subject: Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 25.06.2004.
← Previous message | Next message →

Here is an example otf a website that supports enabling and
disabling acceskeys.

http://ncpad.rehab.uiuc.edu

Jon


---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:35:55 +0100
>From: "chris.price"
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WebAIM Discussion List Digest 25.06.2004.
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>
>
>Paul
>
>Providing access keys is not a straightforward accessibility
issue.
>
>For one, there is some debate as to whether they are useful
or not.
>
>Not all browsers support them and the use of letters can be
problematic.
>Also, in your guide to access keys your instruction is to
press alt+ whereas
>on the Mac you press control+.
>
>Is the link in the top left a permanent fixture? If so, its a
bit too
>prominent. After all, your site is about a community not web
accessibility.
>Likewise, the heading Navigation makes the page a little
mechanic. Why are
>NEWS and EVENTS navigation when HOME and LEISURE aren't.
>
>Talking of headings, you haven't got any on the home page.
That's an
>important accessibility issue as it gives the page structure.
>
>The titles on your 2 topic links are wasting my time telling
me something
>that's totally obvious. If you want to tell your visitor
they're links you
>could just underline them.
>
>As well as accessibility, have you considered usability
issues such as: when
>your in Leisure, the LEISURE button's behaviour changes. Once
I'm in
>Leisure, there are no clues as to where I am.
>
>Jakob Neilsen's alertbox is excellent for tips on usability.
>I found
>http://e-government.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/Resources/WebHandbookIndex1Article/
>fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4000092&chk=XHiT3L worth looking at re:
access keys and
>accessibility in general.
>
>If you're serious about XHTML you might want to try building
to XHTML strict
>if only because it makes you disciplined in your coding.
>
>Good look with the site, its got a good feel about it.
>
>--
>Chris Price
>Choctaw Media Ltd
>Choctaw.co.uk
>
>On 28/6/04 11:35 pm, "paul.creedy"
wrote:
>
>> I've just started my first attempt at CSS layout with
XHTML. I've also tried
>> to add accesskeys to the common menu items.
>>
>> It was hard going at first and XHTML gave me loads of
errors which I think
>> I've now identified. Next I want to improve accessibility.
>>
>> I'd welcome any suggestions on improving it's accessibility.
>>
>> The site is here at the moment:
http://d476047.r39.rcthosting.com/
>>
>> Paul Creedy
>
>----
>To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL 61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund

From: Chris Price
Date: Tue, Jun 29 2004 11:04AM
Subject: Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 25.06.2004.
← Previous message | No next message

On 29/6/04 3:03 pm, "jongund 25.06.2004." wrote:

>
> Here is an example otf a website that supports enabling and
> disabling acceskeys.
>
> http://ncpad.rehab.uiuc.edu

Not very pretty is it? Nor is it standards compliant. Nor does it pass
accessibility level 3.

I'd have thought websites dealing with disabilities would be leading the way
but I've seen other such websites that fail badly.

--
Chris Price