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Thread: How many people switch off javascript?

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Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)

From: Victoria Hamill
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 4:02AM
Subject: How many people switch off javascript?
No previous message | Next message →





Hi,

One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so that
he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying to
put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree with
the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
whenever it is mentioned.

One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off javascript
when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a
resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?

Thanks

Victoria
-----------------------------------------------------
Victoria Hamill
NetInfo
Phone: (44) 1628-687863
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
URL: http://www.netinfo.com
- More than meets the eye

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 4:23AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →

The point is that one person that cannot have javascript is enough to be a
discriminated person.

"Switching off" javascript is not the problem, it is the non-availiability
of Javascript (textbrowsers, proxies filtering out javascript in safe
environments(banks)).

A "whizbang" javascript Navigation is possible to fall back onto a nested
list of links when it is scripted properly. You can use a javascript
navigation, if it applies itself only after checking that javascript is
available.

But Javascript foldout navigations also have a lot more drawbacks, as
explained here:
http://www.icant.co.uk/forreview/dynamicelements/

As to the holy war about text-only versions: they are useless, represent
double maintenance and simply show that your main site has bad markup.
They are the equivalent of 100 ramps to reach the top floor because your
lift is not wide enough for a wheelchair.


HTH

Chris

> Hi,
>
> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so
> that
> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying to
> put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree
> with
> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
> whenever it is mentioned.
>
> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
> javascript
> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a
> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>
> Thanks
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

From: Henny.Swan@rnib.org.uk
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 4:51AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Victoria,

I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include an
option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found at
http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way the
client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!

Thanks, Henny

-----Original Message-----
From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?







Hi,

One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so that
he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying to
put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree with
the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
whenever it is mentioned.

One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off javascript
when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a
resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?

Thanks

Victoria
-----------------------------------------------------
Victoria Hamill
NetInfo
Phone: (44) 1628-687863
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
URL: http://www.netinfo.com
- More than meets the eye

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

--
DISCLAIMER:

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
and any attachments from your system.

RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.

Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
those of RNIB.

RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227

Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 5:09AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →

That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off the first time,
though.



>
> Hi Victoria,
>
> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include an
> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found at
> http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way the
> client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>
> Thanks, Henny
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so
> that
> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying to
> put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree
> with
> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
> whenever it is mentioned.
>
> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
> javascript
> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a
> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>
> Thanks
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> --
> DISCLAIMER:
>
> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
> and any attachments from your system.
>
> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>
> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
> those of RNIB.
>
> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>
> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

From: Victoria Hamill
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 5:32AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →






Thanks to both of you for these pointers.
The only way I've ever managed to get a collapsible menu to work is through
javascript, and the code I use is a massive javascript file that is
required even in order to load up the menu items. I have used
tags to enclose a tabular menu in the past, but I'm not doing that anymore
as it simply loads 2 massive menus instead of one!
I'll take a look at these examples to see if there is anything I can glean
from them to build a better menu, which may help whether I can convince our
client to do without the text-based site or not!

Victoria
-----------------------------------------------------
Victoria Hamill
NetInfo
Phone: (44) 1628-687863
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
URL: http://www.netinfo.com
- More than meets the eye



"lists38"
<lists@onlinetool
s.org> To
"WebAIM Discussion List"
31/08/2004 12:05
cc
"WebAIM Discussion List"
Please respond to
"WebAIM Subject
Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch
<webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
t.webaim.org>










That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off the first time,
though.



>
> Hi Victoria,
>
> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include
an
> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found at
> http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way the
> client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>
> Thanks, Henny
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so
> that
> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying to
> put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree
> with
> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
> whenever it is mentioned.
>
> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
> javascript
> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a
> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>
> Thanks
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> --
> DISCLAIMER:
>
> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
> and any attachments from your system.
>
> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>
> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
> those of RNIB.
>
> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>
> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 5:37AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →


Some more information might help.

How many levels should your navigation have? Recommended is one popup
level tops, as otherwise it'll be a mouse-pointer nightmare.

I could do a version for you if needed. Generally I pray that anybody
using or offering DHTML menus to clients should very well know how to do
them and what their drawbacks are. document.write browsersniffing scripts
must die quickly and get burried deep in the woods.


> Thanks to both of you for these pointers.
> The only way I've ever managed to get a collapsible menu to work is
> through
> javascript, and the code I use is a massive javascript file that is
> required even in order to load up the menu items. I have used
> tags to enclose a tabular menu in the past, but I'm not doing that anymore
> as it simply loads 2 massive menus instead of one!
> I'll take a look at these examples to see if there is anything I can glean
> from them to build a better menu, which may help whether I can convince
> our
> client to do without the text-based site or not!
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
>
>
> "lists38"
> <lists@onlinetool
> s.org> To
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> 31/08/2004 12:05
> cc
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> Please respond to
> "WebAIM Subject
> Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch
> <webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
> t.webaim.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off the first time,
> though.
>
>
>
>>
>> Hi Victoria,
>>
>> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include
> an
>> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found at
>> http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way the
>> client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>>
>> Thanks, Henny
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so
>> that
>> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying
>> to
>> put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree
>> with
>> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
>> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
>> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
>> whenever it is mentioned.
>>
>> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
>> javascript
>> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
>> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
>> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a
>> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Victoria
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Victoria Hamill
>> NetInfo
>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>> - More than meets the eye
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>> --
>> DISCLAIMER:
>>
>> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
>> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
>> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
>> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
>> and any attachments from your system.
>>
>> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
>> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
>> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
>> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>>
>> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
>> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
>> those of RNIB.
>>
>> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>>
>> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Heilmann
> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

From: Sandy Clark
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 5:43AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →

I recently did a bit of research at thecounter.com. According to their July
2004 statistics, the number of browsers without Javascript was 5% up from 4%
in January 2004.


Sandy Clark
http://www.shayna.com
CF Pretty Accessible at http://www.shayna.com/blog
Now offering 4 days Hands on CSS training October 11-14th. Rockville, MD.
For more information go to:
http://www.teratech.com/training/oc_classes.cfm#css

-----Original Message-----
From: henny.swan [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 6:36 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?


Hi Victoria,

I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include an
option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found at
http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way the
client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!

Thanks, Henny

-----Original Message-----
From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?







Hi,

One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so that
he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying to
put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree with
the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
whenever it is mentioned.

One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off javascript
when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation tool
unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from restricted
to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a resource
anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?

Thanks

Victoria
-----------------------------------------------------
Victoria Hamill
NetInfo
Phone: (44) 1628-687863
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
URL: http://www.netinfo.com
- More than meets the eye

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

--
DISCLAIMER:

NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient
you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the content of it or
of any attachment; you are requested to notify the sender immediately of
your receipt of the email and then to delete it and any attachments from
your system.

RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by its
staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it cannot accept
any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.

Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and any
attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those
of RNIB.

RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227

Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Victoria Hamill
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 5:59AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →






The situation is that there are 4 levels in the hierarchy, and they wanted
at least one drop down.

My menu code uses javascript to generate the whole thing, with the effect
that if javascript is turned off it loads nothing, hence the need for a
duplicate menu in noscript tags as back-up.
It hadn't occurred to me to load it as a list, and then just add some
javascript and CSS to act on it afterwards to control the appearance of it.
As you say, this would have the effect that by default it is still
generating the links, which is still perfectly accessible. This is an
option I might explore some more, so thanks for the pointer. I won't need
one built for me though, but thanks for the offer of assistance :-)

I'm a bit disappointed in the 5% rate cited by Sandy, I had a real feeling
it was much higher than that! I have plenty of other arguments against the
text-only version though, particularly now I have some more ideas on how to
create the menu to play with :-)

Victoria
-----------------------------------------------------
Victoria Hamill
NetInfo
Phone: (44) 1628-687863
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
URL: http://www.netinfo.com
- More than meets the eye



"lists38"
<lists@onlinetool
s.org> To
"WebAIM Discussion List"
31/08/2004 12:33
cc

Please respond to Subject
"WebAIM Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch
Discussion List" off javascript?
<webaim-forum@lis
t.webaim.org>










Some more information might help.

How many levels should your navigation have? Recommended is one popup
level tops, as otherwise it'll be a mouse-pointer nightmare.

I could do a version for you if needed. Generally I pray that anybody
using or offering DHTML menus to clients should very well know how to do
them and what their drawbacks are. document.write browsersniffing scripts
must die quickly and get burried deep in the woods.


> Thanks to both of you for these pointers.
> The only way I've ever managed to get a collapsible menu to work is
> through
> javascript, and the code I use is a massive javascript file that is
> required even in order to load up the menu items. I have used
> tags to enclose a tabular menu in the past, but I'm not doing that
anymore
> as it simply loads 2 massive menus instead of one!
> I'll take a look at these examples to see if there is anything I can
glean
> from them to build a better menu, which may help whether I can convince
> our
> client to do without the text-based site or not!
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
>
>
> "lists38"
> <lists@onlinetool
> s.org>
To
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> 31/08/2004 12:05
>
cc
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> Please respond to
> "WebAIM
Subject
> Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many people
switch
> <webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
> t.webaim.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off the first time,
> though.
>
>
>
>>
>> Hi Victoria,
>>
>> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include
> an
>> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found at
>> http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way the
>> client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>>
>> Thanks, Henny
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so
>> that
>> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying
>> to
>> put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree
>> with
>> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because you
>> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea of
>> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
>> whenever it is mentioned.
>>
>> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
>> javascript
>> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
>> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
>> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was a
>> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Victoria
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Victoria Hamill
>> NetInfo
>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>> - More than meets the eye
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>> --
>> DISCLAIMER:
>>
>> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
>> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
>> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
>> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
>> and any attachments from your system.
>>
>> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
>> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
>> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
>> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>>
>> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
>> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
>> those of RNIB.
>>
>> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>>
>> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Heilmann
> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Sandy Clark
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 6:06AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →

Keep in mind that thecounter.com, can only generate stats for sites that use
its counters. If anyone has a better place for getting information like
that, I would love to find it.


Sandy Clark
http://www.shayna.com
CF Pretty Accessible at http://www.shayna.com/blog
Now offering 4 days Hands on CSS training October 11-14th. Rockville, MD.
For more information go to:
http://www.teratech.com/training/oc_classes.cfm#css
-----Original Message-----
From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 8:03 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?







The situation is that there are 4 levels in the hierarchy, and they wanted
at least one drop down.

My menu code uses javascript to generate the whole thing, with the effect
that if javascript is turned off it loads nothing, hence the need for a
duplicate menu in noscript tags as back-up.
It hadn't occurred to me to load it as a list, and then just add some
javascript and CSS to act on it afterwards to control the appearance of it.
As you say, this would have the effect that by default it is still
generating the links, which is still perfectly accessible. This is an option
I might explore some more, so thanks for the pointer. I won't need one built
for me though, but thanks for the offer of assistance :-)

I'm a bit disappointed in the 5% rate cited by Sandy, I had a real feeling
it was much higher than that! I have plenty of other arguments against the
text-only version though, particularly now I have some more ideas on how to
create the menu to play with :-)

Victoria
-----------------------------------------------------
Victoria Hamill
NetInfo
Phone: (44) 1628-687863
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
URL: http://www.netinfo.com
- More than meets the eye



"lists38"
<lists@onlinetool
s.org> To
"WebAIM Discussion List"
31/08/2004 12:33
cc

Please respond to Subject
"WebAIM Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch
Discussion List" off javascript?
<webaim-forum@lis
t.webaim.org>










Some more information might help.

How many levels should your navigation have? Recommended is one popup level
tops, as otherwise it'll be a mouse-pointer nightmare.

I could do a version for you if needed. Generally I pray that anybody using
or offering DHTML menus to clients should very well know how to do them and
what their drawbacks are. document.write browsersniffing scripts must die
quickly and get burried deep in the woods.


> Thanks to both of you for these pointers.
> The only way I've ever managed to get a collapsible menu to work is
> through javascript, and the code I use is a massive javascript file
> that is required even in order to load up the menu items. I have used
> tags to enclose a tabular menu in the past, but I'm not
> doing that
anymore
> as it simply loads 2 massive menus instead of one!
> I'll take a look at these examples to see if there is anything I can
glean
> from them to build a better menu, which may help whether I can
> convince our client to do without the text-based site or not!
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
>
>
> "lists38"
> <lists@onlinetool
> s.org>
To
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> 31/08/2004 12:05
>
cc
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> Please respond to
> "WebAIM
Subject
> Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many people
switch
> <webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
> t.webaim.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off the first
> time, though.
>
>
>
>>
>> Hi Victoria,
>>
>> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to
>> include
> an
>> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found
>> at http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That
>> way the client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>>
>> Thanks, Henny
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website
>> so that he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site.
>> I'm trying to put together a list of arguments against this as I
>> completely disagree with the whole notion of building a flat and
>> lifeless alternative because you want to have a whizzy menu etc. on
>> the main one. I know that the idea of text-only is unpopular among
>> people here as I've seen a lot of outrage whenever it is mentioned.
>>
>> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
>> javascript when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as
>> a navigation tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high,
>> and is far from restricted to people with disabilities, but was
>> wondering if there was a resource anyone knew of where I could find a
>> statistic?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Victoria
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Victoria Hamill
>> NetInfo
>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>> - More than meets the eye
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>> --
>> DISCLAIMER:
>>
>> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
>> is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
>> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
>> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
>> and any attachments from your system.
>>
>> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
>> by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
>> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
>> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>>
>> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
>> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
>> represent those of RNIB.
>>
>> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>>
>> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Heilmann
> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 6:30AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →


For a rather clean example:
http://www.onlinetools.org/tests/dropdownul.html
works with keyboard and mouse, and hides the sub menus via applying a
class called "h" (for script shortening reasons) to them, and shows them
by replacing this class "h" with "s", in case you want to style the shown
menu.
The navigation UL needs the ID "nav" and automatically finds nested ULS.

HTH

Chris




> The situation is that there are 4 levels in the hierarchy, and they wanted
> at least one drop down.
>
> My menu code uses javascript to generate the whole thing, with the effect
> that if javascript is turned off it loads nothing, hence the need for a
> duplicate menu in noscript tags as back-up.
> It hadn't occurred to me to load it as a list, and then just add some
> javascript and CSS to act on it afterwards to control the appearance of
> it.
> As you say, this would have the effect that by default it is still
> generating the links, which is still perfectly accessible. This is an
> option I might explore some more, so thanks for the pointer. I won't need
> one built for me though, but thanks for the offer of assistance :-)
>
> I'm a bit disappointed in the 5% rate cited by Sandy, I had a real feeling
> it was much higher than that! I have plenty of other arguments against the
> text-only version though, particularly now I have some more ideas on how
> to
> create the menu to play with :-)
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
>
>
> "lists38"
> <lists@onlinetool
> s.org> To
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> 31/08/2004 12:33
> cc
>
> Please respond to Subject
> "WebAIM Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch
> Discussion List" off javascript?
> <webaim-forum@lis
> t.webaim.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Some more information might help.
>
> How many levels should your navigation have? Recommended is one popup
> level tops, as otherwise it'll be a mouse-pointer nightmare.
>
> I could do a version for you if needed. Generally I pray that anybody
> using or offering DHTML menus to clients should very well know how to do
> them and what their drawbacks are. document.write browsersniffing scripts
> must die quickly and get burried deep in the woods.
>
>
>> Thanks to both of you for these pointers.
>> The only way I've ever managed to get a collapsible menu to work is
>> through
>> javascript, and the code I use is a massive javascript file that is
>> required even in order to load up the menu items. I have used
>> tags to enclose a tabular menu in the past, but I'm not doing that
> anymore
>> as it simply loads 2 massive menus instead of one!
>> I'll take a look at these examples to see if there is anything I can
> glean
>> from them to build a better menu, which may help whether I can convince
>> our
>> client to do without the text-based site or not!
>>
>> Victoria
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Victoria Hamill
>> NetInfo
>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>> - More than meets the eye
>>
>>
>>
>> "lists38"
>> <lists@onlinetool
>> s.org>
> To
>> "WebAIM Discussion List"
>> 31/08/2004 12:05
>>
> cc
>> "WebAIM Discussion List"
>> Please respond to
>> "WebAIM
> Subject
>> Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many people
> switch
>> <webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
>> t.webaim.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off the first time,
>> though.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Victoria,
>>>
>>> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include
>> an
>>> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found
>>> at
>>> http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way
>>> the
>>> client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>>>
>>> Thanks, Henny
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>>> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so
>>> that
>>> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying
>>> to
>>> put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree
>>> with
>>> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because
>>> you
>>> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea
>>> of
>>> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
>>> whenever it is mentioned.
>>>
>>> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
>>> javascript
>>> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
>>> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
>>> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was
>>> a
>>> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Victoria
>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>> Victoria Hamill
>>> NetInfo
>>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>>> - More than meets the eye
>>>
>>> ----
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>>
>>> --
>>> DISCLAIMER:
>>>
>>> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
>>> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
>>> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
>>> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
>>> and any attachments from your system.
>>>
>>> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
>>> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
>>> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
>>> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>>>
>>> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
>>> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
>>> represent
>>> those of RNIB.
>>>
>>> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>>>
>>> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
>>>
>>> ----
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Heilmann
>> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
>> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
>> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Heilmann
> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

From: Victoria Hamill
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 6:37AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | Next message →






Sounds like just what I need, and I will absolutely check this out, thanks
a lot for your help Chris.

Victoria
-----------------------------------------------------
Victoria Hamill
NetInfo
Phone: (44) 1628-687863
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
URL: http://www.netinfo.com
- More than meets the eye



"lists38"
<lists@onlinetool
s.org> To
"WebAIM Discussion List"
31/08/2004 13:26
cc
"WebAIM Discussion List"
Please respond to
"WebAIM Subject
Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch
<webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
t.webaim.org>











For a rather clean example:
http://www.onlinetools.org/tests/dropdownul.html
works with keyboard and mouse, and hides the sub menus via applying a
class called "h" (for script shortening reasons) to them, and shows them
by replacing this class "h" with "s", in case you want to style the shown
menu.
The navigation UL needs the ID "nav" and automatically finds nested ULS.

HTH

Chris




> The situation is that there are 4 levels in the hierarchy, and they
wanted
> at least one drop down.
>
> My menu code uses javascript to generate the whole thing, with the effect
> that if javascript is turned off it loads nothing, hence the need for a
> duplicate menu in noscript tags as back-up.
> It hadn't occurred to me to load it as a list, and then just add some
> javascript and CSS to act on it afterwards to control the appearance of
> it.
> As you say, this would have the effect that by default it is still
> generating the links, which is still perfectly accessible. This is an
> option I might explore some more, so thanks for the pointer. I won't need
> one built for me though, but thanks for the offer of assistance :-)
>
> I'm a bit disappointed in the 5% rate cited by Sandy, I had a real
feeling
> it was much higher than that! I have plenty of other arguments against
the
> text-only version though, particularly now I have some more ideas on how
> to
> create the menu to play with :-)
>
> Victoria
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Victoria Hamill
> NetInfo
> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
>
>
> "lists38"
> <lists@onlinetool
> s.org>
To
> "WebAIM Discussion List"
> 31/08/2004 12:33
>
cc
>
> Please respond to
Subject
> "WebAIM Re: [WebAIM] How many people
switch
> Discussion List" off javascript?
> <webaim-forum@lis
> t.webaim.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Some more information might help.
>
> How many levels should your navigation have? Recommended is one popup
> level tops, as otherwise it'll be a mouse-pointer nightmare.
>
> I could do a version for you if needed. Generally I pray that anybody
> using or offering DHTML menus to clients should very well know how to do
> them and what their drawbacks are. document.write browsersniffing scripts
> must die quickly and get burried deep in the woods.
>
>
>> Thanks to both of you for these pointers.
>> The only way I've ever managed to get a collapsible menu to work is
>> through
>> javascript, and the code I use is a massive javascript file that is
>> required even in order to load up the menu items. I have used
>> tags to enclose a tabular menu in the past, but I'm not doing that
> anymore
>> as it simply loads 2 massive menus instead of one!
>> I'll take a look at these examples to see if there is anything I can
> glean
>> from them to build a better menu, which may help whether I can convince
>> our
>> client to do without the text-based site or not!
>>
>> Victoria
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Victoria Hamill
>> NetInfo
>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>> - More than meets the eye
>>
>>
>>
>> "lists38"
>> <lists@onlinetool
>> s.org>
> To
>> "WebAIM Discussion List"
>> 31/08/2004 12:05
>>
> cc
>> "WebAIM Discussion List"
>> Please respond to
>> "WebAIM
> Subject
>> Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many people
> switch
>> <webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
>> t.webaim.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off the first time,
>> though.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Victoria,
>>>
>>> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest is to include
>> an
>>> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example can be found
>>> at
>>> http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm. That way
>>> the
>>> client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>>>
>>> Thanks, Henny
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>>> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of his website so
>>> that
>>> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main site. I'm trying
>>> to
>>> put together a list of arguments against this as I completely disagree
>>> with
>>> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless alternative because
>>> you
>>> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know that the idea
>>> of
>>> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a lot of outrage
>>> whenever it is mentioned.
>>>
>>> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who switch off
>>> javascript
>>> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript as a navigation
>>> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and is far from
>>> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering if there was
>>> a
>>> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Victoria
>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>> Victoria Hamill
>>> NetInfo
>>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>>> - More than meets the eye
>>>
>>> ----
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>>
>>> --
>>> DISCLAIMER:
>>>
>>> NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments is
>>> confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of the
>>> content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify the
>>> sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to delete it
>>> and any attachments from your system.
>>>
>>> RNIB endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated by
>>> its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However, it
>>> cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are transmitted.
>>> We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
>>>
>>> Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email and
>>> any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
>>> represent
>>> those of RNIB.
>>>
>>> RNIB Registered Charity Number: 226227
>>>
>>> Website: http://www.rnib.org.uk
>>>
>>> ----
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Heilmann
>> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
>> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
>> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Heilmann
> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


--
Chris Heilmann
The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Tue, Aug 31 2004 6:55AM
Subject: Re: How many people switch off javascript?
← Previous message | No next message

Another arguement is that people are using a wider range of
technologies to access the web. Designing using standards and
markup that can adapt a wide range of technologies and user
needs makes their website more flexible and compatible with
new technologies. Some people call this "forward Looking
Design". One major example is dot pitch on computer monitors
is getting smaller (more dots per inch of screen). Web pages
that uses images for styling and pixels for layout of content
are slowly shrinking in size, whether you have a disability or
not! So one arguement is you need to have web resources that
can easily adapt.

You could also argue that instead of worrying about pull down
menu, put the money into usability testing to see how real
people use the site and optimize the user experience.

Here is a link to a "Best Practices" document we are working
at UIUC on implement what we call "User Centered Web Design".
http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/uiuc-web-best-practices.htm

Jon


---- Original message ----
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:40:55 +0100
>From: "victoria.hamill"
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Sounds like just what I need, and I will absolutely check
this out, thanks
>a lot for your help Chris.
>
>Victoria
>-----------------------------------------------------
>Victoria Hamill
>NetInfo
>Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>URL: http://www.netinfo.com
> - More than meets the eye
>
>
>

> "lists38"

> <lists@onlinetool

> s.org>
To
> "WebAIM Discussion
List"
> 31/08/2004 13:26

>
cc
> "WebAIM Discussion
List"
> Please respond to

> "WebAIM
Subject
> Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How many
people switch
> <webaim-forum@lis off javascript?

> t.webaim.org>

>

>

>

>

>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>For a rather clean example:
>http://www.onlinetools.org/tests/dropdownul.html
>works with keyboard and mouse, and hides the sub menus via
applying a
>class called "h" (for script shortening reasons) to them, and
shows them
>by replacing this class "h" with "s", in case you want to
style the shown
>menu.
>The navigation UL needs the ID "nav" and automatically finds
nested ULS.
>
>HTH
>
>Chris
>
>
>
>
>> The situation is that there are 4 levels in the hierarchy,
and they
>wanted
>> at least one drop down.
>>
>> My menu code uses javascript to generate the whole thing,
with the effect
>> that if javascript is turned off it loads nothing, hence
the need for a
>> duplicate menu in noscript tags as back-up.
>> It hadn't occurred to me to load it as a list, and then
just add some
>> javascript and CSS to act on it afterwards to control the
appearance of
>> it.
>> As you say, this would have the effect that by default it
is still
>> generating the links, which is still perfectly accessible.
This is an
>> option I might explore some more, so thanks for the
pointer. I won't need
>> one built for me though, but thanks for the offer of
assistance :-)
>>
>> I'm a bit disappointed in the 5% rate cited by Sandy, I had
a real
>feeling
>> it was much higher than that! I have plenty of other
arguments against
>the
>> text-only version though, particularly now I have some more
ideas on how
>> to
>> create the menu to play with :-)
>>
>> Victoria
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> Victoria Hamill
>> NetInfo
>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>> - More than meets the eye
>>
>>
>>
>> "lists38"
>> <lists@onlinetool
>> s.org>
>To
>> "WebAIM Discussion List"
>> 31/08/2004 12:33

>>
>cc
>>
>> Please respond to
>Subject
>> "WebAIM Re: [WebAIM] How
many people
>switch
>> Discussion List" off javascript?
>> <webaim-forum@lis
>> t.webaim.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Some more information might help.
>>
>> How many levels should your navigation have? Recommended is
one popup
>> level tops, as otherwise it'll be a mouse-pointer nightmare.
>>
>> I could do a version for you if needed. Generally I pray
that anybody
>> using or offering DHTML menus to clients should very well
know how to do
>> them and what their drawbacks are. document.write
browsersniffing scripts
>> must die quickly and get burried deep in the woods.
>>
>>
>>> Thanks to both of you for these pointers.
>>> The only way I've ever managed to get a collapsible menu
to work is
>>> through
>>> javascript, and the code I use is a massive javascript
file that is
>>> required even in order to load up the menu items. I have
used
>>> tags to enclose a tabular menu in the past, but I'm not
doing that
>> anymore
>>> as it simply loads 2 massive menus instead of one!
>>> I'll take a look at these examples to see if there is
anything I can
>> glean
>>> from them to build a better menu, which may help whether I
can convince
>>> our
>>> client to do without the text-based site or not!
>>>
>>> Victoria
>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>> Victoria Hamill
>>> NetInfo
>>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>>> - More than meets the eye
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "lists38"
>>> <lists@onlinetool
>>> s.org>
>> To
>>> "WebAIM Discussion
List"
>>> 31/08/2004 12:05

>>>
>> cc
>>> "WebAIM Discussion
List"
>>> Please respond to

>>> "WebAIM
>> Subject
>>> Discussion List" Re: [WebAIM] How
many people
>> switch
>>> <webaim-forum@lis off javascript?
>>> t.webaim.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That would make a lot more sense if they were turned off
the first time,
>>> though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Victoria,
>>>>
>>>> I don't have any numbers but one solution you can suggest
is to include
>>> an
>>>> option to switch JavaScript menus on and off. An example
can be found
>>>> at
>>>>
http://www.darlington.gov.uk/Generic/Profiles/Visitors.htm.
That way
>>>> the
>>>> client gets what they want and the user gets to the content!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Henny
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: victoria.hamill [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>>>> Sent: 31 August 2004 11:06
>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] How many people switch off javascript?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> One of our clients has requested a text-only version of
his website so
>>>> that
>>>> he can avoid thinking about accessibility on his main
site. I'm trying
>>>> to
>>>> put together a list of arguments against this as I
completely disagree
>>>> with
>>>> the whole notion of building a flat and lifeless
alternative because
>>>> you
>>>> want to have a whizzy menu etc. on the main one. I know
that the idea
>>>> of
>>>> text-only is unpopular among people here as I've seen a
lot of outrage
>>>> whenever it is mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> One of my arguments is to be the number of people who
switch off
>>>> javascript
>>>> when they view sites, thus making the use of javascript
as a navigation
>>>> tool unreliable. I believe this number is quite high, and
is far from
>>>> restricted to people with disabilities, but was wondering
if there was
>>>> a
>>>> resource anyone knew of where I could find a statistic?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Victoria
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Victoria Hamill
>>>> NetInfo
>>>> Phone: (44) 1628-687863
>>>> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>> URL: http://www.netinfo.com
>>>> - More than meets the eye
>>>>
>>>> ----
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> ----
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Chris Heilmann
>>> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
>>> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
>>> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>>>
>>> ----
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>>
>>> ----
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Heilmann
>> The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
>> Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
>> Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>
>
>--
>Chris Heilmann
>The mighty pen: http://icant.co.uk/
>Learn to let go! http://ltlg.icant.co.uk
>Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
>
>----
>To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>----
>To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
MC-574
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL 61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund