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Thread: What to ask Web designers?
Number of posts in this thread: 17 (In chronological order)
From: Glenda
Date: Wed, Nov 17 2004 4:00PM
Subject: What to ask Web designers?
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Hi again,
I have another question. Hopefully this one is easier than my last one.
This course I am developing is for managers and decision-making types, who
do not necessary have HTML or technical knowledge, and are from non-profits
or small-medium organizations. For those who deal with external Web
designers/developers, I would like to provide a checklist of information
they should check for during the RFP/bidding process to reasonably ensure
the bidder has a clue about Web accessibility.
If the manager includes in the RFP [request for proposals] that the site
must meet the organization's Web accessibility policy and specifies the
policy details, then how can the manager be sure the bidder can provide that
service? What questions should be asked? What information should be
checked? Assume the manager has no clue about ALT attributes, structure vs
presentation, blah blah blah.
Hope that makes sense.
Cheers,
Glenda
Soaring Eagle Communications
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From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 10:47AM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
> then how can the manager be sure the
> bidder can provide that service?
Ask for referrals and links to recently created sites by said firm.
Granted, just because they haven't built a fully accessible site doesn't
necessarily mean they don't know how.
> What questions should be asked?
I'd ask if they are aware of web accessibility issues and know how to build
a site that meets generally agreed upon web standards. Insist that any
failures in accessibility found post-launch be fixed for free.
-Darrel
From: Glenda
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 11:12AM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks Darrel,
Definitely a start. I really like any failures in accessibility found
post-lanch would be fixed for free -- that should be written into contract.
Any more ideas out there?
Cheers,
Glenda
-----Original Message-----
From: darrel.austin [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 9:38 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
> then how can the manager be sure the
> bidder can provide that service?
Ask for referrals and links to recently created sites by said firm.
Granted, just because they haven't built a fully accessible site doesn't
necessarily mean they don't know how.
> What questions should be asked?
I'd ask if they are aware of web accessibility issues and know how to build
a site that meets generally agreed upon web standards. Insist that any
failures in accessibility found post-launch be fixed for free.
-Darrel
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From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 12:07PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
> Any more ideas out there?
It's pretty hard for someone who doesn't know anything about web
accessibility to evaluate whether a potential contractor has the requisite
skills in accessible web design or not, since that person will not be able
to evaluate most answers properly. Currently, anyone can say they
understand web accessibility and web accessibility guidelines and even claim
that the sites they design are all fully accessible without necessarily
having the requisite skills.
But here are a couple other ideas of questions to ask potential contractors
anyways:
1. Have they ever done any user testing of a website with people with
disabilities? (either on their own site, or for a client)
- the manager would probably just have to take their word on the answer
to this one
2. Is their own company website designed to meet any set of accessibility
guidelines? Which one(s)?
- you could provide managers with a list of possible answers and even
prioritize that list: i.e. W3C WAI Guidelines, Bobby Approved, Valid HTML,
etc...
3. Does the company have an "Accessibility" policy (either for their own
site, or for the sites they design)
- this is one that could be checked by visiting the company's site or the
site referenced
I would think that these last two questions would be useful in narrowing the
field of potential contractors. The first question is not one that very
many small design companies will likely say yes to, but it may not be
feasible for a small non-profit organization to expect that their web design
company has experience in accessibility design testing unless the small
non-profit has a large web budget and is willing to pursue only the top
designers in the field.
Phil.
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 12:14PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
> It's pretty hard for someone who doesn't know anything about web
> accessibility to evaluate whether a potential contractor has the
> requisite skills in accessible web design or not
And this is probably the key point. I find the biggest failings when
companies hire out web development is that they don't actually use web
developers on staff to make the hiring decision. This is true in pretty much
any vendor-client relationship, though.
-Darrel
From: Glenda
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 12:30PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks Phil, I'll massage your suggestions and add them to the checklist.
I definitely agree that it's hard for someone who doesn't know anything
about Web accessibility to evaluate potential contractors. That is my whole
reason for developing this checklist. I'm thinking that some managers want
to do the "right thing" [remember I'm in Canada, so legal requirements
aren't an issue, yet], but they don't have a clue what to ask when choosing
a Web designer -- so they don't venture into Web accessibility territory.
I hoping my mini course "Web Accessibility: What Is It All About?" will ease
them into that unknown territory.
Any more thoughts for the checklist??
Cheers,
Glenda
-----Original Message-----
From: chnnb [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:04 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
> Any more ideas out there?
It's pretty hard for someone who doesn't know anything about web
accessibility to evaluate whether a potential contractor has the requisite
skills in accessible web design or not, since that person will not be able
to evaluate most answers properly. Currently, anyone can say they
understand web accessibility and web accessibility guidelines and even claim
that the sites they design are all fully accessible without necessarily
having the requisite skills.
But here are a couple other ideas of questions to ask potential contractors
anyways:
1. Have they ever done any user testing of a website with people with
disabilities? (either on their own site, or for a client)
- the manager would probably just have to take their word on the answer
to this one
2. Is their own company website designed to meet any set of accessibility
guidelines? Which one(s)?
- you could provide managers with a list of possible answers and even
prioritize that list: i.e. W3C WAI Guidelines, Bobby Approved, Valid HTML,
etc...
3. Does the company have an "Accessibility" policy (either for their own
site, or for the sites they design)
- this is one that could be checked by visiting the company's site or the
site referenced
I would think that these last two questions would be useful in narrowing the
field of potential contractors. The first question is not one that very
many small design companies will likely say yes to, but it may not be
feasible for a small non-profit organization to expect that their web design
company has experience in accessibility design testing unless the small
non-profit has a large web budget and is willing to pursue only the top
designers in the field.
Phil.
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From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 12:37PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
-----Original Message-----
From: glenda [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Any more ideas out there?
You might take a page out of my employer's book whereby they interviewed me
and others for the position of webmaster (I never got it cuz thye sed mi
speling waz baad) but they had a webmaster in on the interview to assess the
quality of the responses of the questions. This would reduce the ability of
an unqualified person to pull the wool over the head of someone who doesn't
have the knowledge base.
Jules
From: Cathy Mar
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 12:40PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
Glenda,
When you checklist is complete, can you please share it so I may use
it for reference?
Thanks,
Cath
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 11/18/2004 11:32:06 AM >>>
Thanks Phil, I'll massage your suggestions and add them to the
checklist.
I definitely agree that it's hard for someone who doesn't know
anything
about Web accessibility to evaluate potential contractors. That is my
whole
reason for developing this checklist. I'm thinking that some managers
want
to do the "right thing" [remember I'm in Canada, so legal requirements
aren't an issue, yet], but they don't have a clue what to ask when
choosing
a Web designer -- so they don't venture into Web accessibility
territory.
I hoping my mini course "Web Accessibility: What Is It All About?" will
ease
them into that unknown territory.
Any more thoughts for the checklist??
Cheers,
Glenda
-----Original Message-----
From: chnnb [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:04 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
> Any more ideas out there?
It's pretty hard for someone who doesn't know anything about web
accessibility to evaluate whether a potential contractor has the
requisite
skills in accessible web design or not, since that person will not be
able
to evaluate most answers properly. Currently, anyone can say they
understand web accessibility and web accessibility guidelines and even
claim
that the sites they design are all fully accessible without
necessarily
having the requisite skills.
But here are a couple other ideas of questions to ask potential
contractors
anyways:
1. Have they ever done any user testing of a website with people with
disabilities? (either on their own site, or for a client)
- the manager would probably just have to take their word on the
answer
to this one
2. Is their own company website designed to meet any set of
accessibility
guidelines? Which one(s)?
- you could provide managers with a list of possible answers and
even
prioritize that list: i.e. W3C WAI Guidelines, Bobby Approved, Valid
HTML,
etc...
3. Does the company have an "Accessibility" policy (either for their
own
site, or for the sites they design)
- this is one that could be checked by visiting the company's site
or the
site referenced
I would think that these last two questions would be useful in
narrowing the
field of potential contractors. The first question is not one that
very
many small design companies will likely say yes to, but it may not be
feasible for a small non-profit organization to expect that their web
design
company has experience in accessibility design testing unless the
small
non-profit has a large web budget and is willing to pursue only the
top
designers in the field.
Phil.
----
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From: Glenda
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 1:10PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks for the chuckle, Jules. Good suggestion. Though what if they don't
have a webmaster on staff? Hence, that is why they are contracting out.
Hmm, is this another service I could provide -- being available for the
decision-making process??? Hmmm. Thanks for the idea!
Cheers,
Glenda
Ps Hasn't your employer heard of "workplace accommodations"? You could use
a spell checker.
-----Original Message-----
From: julian.rickards [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:33 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
-----Original Message-----
From: glenda [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>Any more ideas out there?
You might take a page out of my employer's book whereby they interviewed me
and others for the position of webmaster (I never got it cuz thye sed mi
speling waz baad) but they had a webmaster in on the interview to assess the
quality of the responses of the questions. This would reduce the ability of
an unqualified person to pull the wool over the head of someone who doesn't
have the knowledge base.
Jules
----
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From: Glenda
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 1:15PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
Cathy,
Yes, I was considering doing that, and since you asked, I'll post it once I
tidy it up. Since all of the suggestions came from webaimers, I can't
really claim I would be out anything by freely sharing it.
Cheers,
Glenda
-----Original Message-----
From: cathy.mar [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
Glenda,
When you checklist is complete, can you please share it so I may use
it for reference?
Thanks,
Cath
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 11/18/2004 11:32:06 AM >>>
Thanks Phil, I'll massage your suggestions and add them to the
checklist.
I definitely agree that it's hard for someone who doesn't know
anything
about Web accessibility to evaluate potential contractors. That is my
whole
reason for developing this checklist. I'm thinking that some managers
want
to do the "right thing" [remember I'm in Canada, so legal requirements
aren't an issue, yet], but they don't have a clue what to ask when
choosing
a Web designer -- so they don't venture into Web accessibility
territory.
I hoping my mini course "Web Accessibility: What Is It All About?" will
ease
them into that unknown territory.
Any more thoughts for the checklist??
Cheers,
Glenda
-----Original Message-----
From: chnnb [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:04 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
> Any more ideas out there?
It's pretty hard for someone who doesn't know anything about web
accessibility to evaluate whether a potential contractor has the
requisite
skills in accessible web design or not, since that person will not be
able
to evaluate most answers properly. Currently, anyone can say they
understand web accessibility and web accessibility guidelines and even
claim
that the sites they design are all fully accessible without
necessarily
having the requisite skills.
But here are a couple other ideas of questions to ask potential
contractors
anyways:
1. Have they ever done any user testing of a website with people with
disabilities? (either on their own site, or for a client)
- the manager would probably just have to take their word on the
answer
to this one
2. Is their own company website designed to meet any set of
accessibility
guidelines? Which one(s)?
- you could provide managers with a list of possible answers and
even
prioritize that list: i.e. W3C WAI Guidelines, Bobby Approved, Valid
HTML,
etc...
3. Does the company have an "Accessibility" policy (either for their
own
site, or for the sites they design)
- this is one that could be checked by visiting the company's site
or the
site referenced
I would think that these last two questions would be useful in
narrowing the
field of potential contractors. The first question is not one that
very
many small design companies will likely say yes to, but it may not be
feasible for a small non-profit organization to expect that their web
design
company has experience in accessibility design testing unless the
small
non-profit has a large web budget and is willing to pursue only the
top
designers in the field.
Phil.
----
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From: Glenda
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 1:18PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
What if they don't have web developers on staff?
Cheers,
Glenda
-----Original Message-----
From: darrel.austin [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 11:05 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
> It's pretty hard for someone who doesn't know anything about web
> accessibility to evaluate whether a potential contractor has the
> requisite skills in accessible web design or not
And this is probably the key point. I find the biggest failings when
companies hire out web development is that they don't actually use web
developers on staff to make the hiring decision. This is true in pretty much
any vendor-client relationship, though.
-Darrel
----
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From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 1:29PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
> What if they don't have web developers on staff?
Well, when you buy a used car, and if you're not a mechanic, who do you
trust? The used car salesman? Or do you talk to your own mechanic about the
car first?
I've seen so many companies buy 'web development services' and 'enterprise
software' and 'insert pretty much any IT solution here' that are complete
crap. Why? Because the people that have no business shopping for these types
of services are the ones making the decisions.
So, that's more of a gripe than an answer, but if they don't have any
web-skilled folks on staff, then they should be hiring someone like you to
help consult with them on their options. Convince them that the best
investment they can make is to put you on a retainer to work with them
through the entire vendor RFP and evaluation process.
-Darrel
From: Sam Foster
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 1:32PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
> Definitely a start. I really like any failures in accessibility found
> post-lanch would be fixed for free -- that should be written into contract.
I would never sign such a contract. You want some accountability, but
you must put some limits around it. It would probably be impossible to
create a perfectly accessible document or site that met all needs, so
this could be construed as indentured servitude.
How about a two week or even 1 month period following the launch, during
which time these fixes are free. Or maybe negotiate a significantly
reduced hourly rate for updates and bug fixes after launch? Most
problems that exist are usually discovered in the first week or so anyway.
You also need to make clear who is responsible for testing. If the
contractor takes full responsibility this motivates them to find all the
bugs, but if they have no control over the launch date -- what then? If
you launch my work before its finished, then ask me to fix bugs
(complete it) for free I'm not going to be happy or cooperative.
If they are not responsible, they will want to pad to ensure they've got
time to address anything that comes out of testing.
I think if you write accessibility in as a formal requirement, and
dictate that the work is not finished until all requirements are met (or
both parties agree to a change in requirements), a standard work for
hire contract would cover it? If you define a failure in accessibility
as a software defect or bug, then you are suddenly in much more well
travelled territory, legally speaking.
(caveat: I'm not a contractor, or a lawyer, or even in a position to
hire one)
Also, btw, I would expect this level of accountability (which is not
unreasonable) to be worth a slighly higher fee. Carrot and stick.
Sam
From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 1:39PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
-----Original Message-----
From: glenda [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Thanks for the chuckle, Jules. Good suggestion. Though what if they don't
have a webmaster on staff? Hence, that is why they are contracting out.
Hmm, is this another service I could provide -- being available for the
decision-making process??? Hmmm. Thanks for the idea!
Cheers,
Glenda
Ps Hasn't your employer heard of "workplace accommodations"? You could use
a spell checker.
I had a spel chequer but I cant find it!!! I used to teach basic computer
skills in an adult high school and I would try to add humour whenever I
could. When teaching how to use a spell checker (and how not to depend on
it), I would read them a poem similar to
http://www.punctuationtips.com/englishumor.html and then, they would be
allowed to turn over their copy of the poem to see what I had read. This one
is not exactly like the one I had used but it is very similar.
On to your question:
Providing that service was part of what I was suggesting. As Darrel Austin
suggested, it is not uncommon in a vendor-client process to have people
purchasing services and not knowing what they should be asking for. I have
seen this in my workplace as well where a Request for Purchase document is
"mangled" by Purchasing Services because they don't understand what is
needed. In my interview, a webmaster from another gov't department was
brought in but it has occurred in my current workplace that consultants are
called in to assist in the selection of consultants - sounds rather
convoluted but it adds a degree of confidence in the selection process.
Jules
From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 2:01PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
-----Original Message-----
From: sam89 [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Definitely a start. I really like any failures in accessibility found
> post-lanch would be fixed for free -- that should be written into
contract.
Yes, this could be problematic in that, despite a contract that states
otherwise, the contractor could say, "while you are fixing X, could you
update Y for us?". A reduced rate and limited timeline seems reasonable.
Jules
From: Jeff Coburn
Date: Thu, Nov 18 2004 2:19PM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | Next message →
You might look into something Similar to Voluntary Product
Accessibility Template (VPAT). Government Agencies are supposed to make
private vendors use these to make sure they are getting an accessible
product. I think normally a vendor fills these out in regards to a
product that is done and they are selling, but I don't see why you
couldn't use something like this to make sure a potential product is
accessible.
http://www.itic.org/policy/vpat.html#webdetails
-jc
julian.rickards wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sam89 [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>
>
>>Definitely a start. I really like any failures in accessibility found
>>post-lanch would be fixed for free -- that should be written into
>
> contract.
>
> Yes, this could be problematic in that, despite a contract that states
> otherwise, the contractor could say, "while you are fixing X, could you
> update Y for us?". A reduced rate and limited timeline seems reasonable.
>
> Jules
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
From: Conrad Mulligan
Date: Tue, Nov 23 2004 9:38AM
Subject: Re: What to ask Web designers?
← Previous message | No next message
For list members in the Washington, DC area, the Usability University is
offering a free two-hour seminar on "Developing Statements of Work for
Usability Engineering Services". The course will be held on December 14.
Participants will:
* Learn how to write a statement of work for usability services.
* Develop deliverables for usability statements of work.
* Review sample statements of work for usability contracts.
While targeted to Federal employees, the public is encouraged to attend.
The Usability University is sponsored by the Department of Health and Human
Services and the General Services Administration. More details can be found
at http://www.usability.gov/usabilityuniversity/seminar.html#dec14
----- Original Message -----
From: "jeff.coburn"
To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] What to ask Web designers?
>
> You might look into something Similar to Voluntary Product Accessibility
> Template (VPAT). Government Agencies are supposed to make private vendors
> use these to make sure they are getting an accessible product. I think
> normally a vendor fills these out in regards to a product that is done and
> they are selling, but I don't see why you couldn't use something like this
> to make sure a potential product is accessible.
>
> http://www.itic.org/policy/vpat.html#webdetails
>
> -jc
>
>
>
> julian.rickards wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sam89 [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
>>
>>
>>>Definitely a start. I really like any failures in accessibility found
>>>post-lanch would be fixed for free -- that should be written into
>>
>> contract.
>>
>> Yes, this could be problematic in that, despite a contract that states
>> otherwise, the contractor could say, "while you are fixing X, could you
>> update Y for us?". A reduced rate and limited timeline seems reasonable.
>>
>> Jules
>>
>> ----
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>