E-mail List Archives
Thread: tables vs. layers
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: Karen Looney
Date: Wed, Dec 01 2004 1:17PM
Subject: tables vs. layers
No previous message | Next message →
Can anyone tell me
the pro's and con's to using tables / layers for designing the layout of a
website?
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Wed, Dec 01 2004 1:20PM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | Next message →
karen.looney wrote:
>Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's to using tables / layers for designing the layout of a website?
>
>
>
There is a wonderful presentation on that here:
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
From: reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references;
Date: Wed, Dec 01 2004 1:58PM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | Next message →
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:20:20 -0500, karen.looney
wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's to using tables / layers for
> designing the layout of a website?
IMHO, good accessibility begins w/ good structural semantics. I'm a
proponent of the "write once, use anywhere by everyone" approach to
web development, and creating good, semantically-logical markup is 90%
of the accessibility battle. To that end, tables were originally
conceived for the purpose of presenting related data in a tabular
format. Period. When you introduce tables into your markup in a
semantic manner inconsistent w/ their design, you are also introducing
accessibility hurdles into your document. Granted, I will acknowledge
that most of the time those hurdles are small and easily overcome, but
their hurdles nonetheless. On the flip side, good semantic markup
that uses CSS to drive the presentational end eliminates that
obstacle.
And granted again, there are certain things you can do w/ table
layouts that just aren't possible at this time using CSS. However,
with the CSS support of modern browsers getting better each day, those
items are few and far between. They're also cosmetic, presentational
things that can be avoided w/ alternative design approaches. One of
the most important concepts web developers need to latch onto is that
the web is an informational medium first, and a presentational medium
second. For best accessibility across the widest array of platforms,
mark that information up correctly.
--
Bryce Fields, Web Developer
Where I Work: Kentucky Council on Postsecondary Education
Where I Play: www.royalrodent.com
"Do or do not! There is no try!" -- Yoda
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Wed, Dec 01 2004 2:08PM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | Next message →
> Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's to using tables / layers for
> designing the layout of a website?
tables
------
pros: supported more consistently across browsers. fairly easy to get the
hang of.
cons: it ties the content to a specific page layout/presentation
css-p (what you call 'layers'--which is really an outdated term)
-----
pros: allows the content to be rendered independant of any specific
layout/presentation
cons: not as well supported (yet) in all browsers. Still need to know some
of the tricks/hacks to get it working.
In the end, it's good to know how to use both and when to use either one as
the need arrises.
In terms of accessibility, CSS-P's greatest advantage is that you can take
the exact same source code and present it to a variety of devices fairly
easily...visual browser, screen reader, PDA, etc.
-Darrel
From: Chris Price
Date: Wed, Dec 01 2004 6:00PM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | Next message →
On 1/12/04 8:20 pm, "karen.looney" wrote:
> Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's to using tables / layers for designing
> the layout of a website?
I think tables vs css is not so much a case of pros and cons as alternative
approaches to web design.
I have now abandoned tables as layout devices but there was a point where
tables seemed to be a necessary evil in order to make the designs work
across all browsers. I think if I'd compromised I would have missed an
opportunity to develop my css skills.
I find that designing around the information is far more creative than
fitting the information to the design (which tends to be the way of table
based design) and though tables are not necessarily inaccessible, css based
design is inherently more likely to be accessible.
Table vs css is really just one aspect of the style/markup issue.
--
Chris Price
Choctaw.co.uk
From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Dec 02 2004 6:51AM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | Next message →
Layers is the term used in Dreamweaver (even MX 2004). Readers should
understand that, in DW, layers are s with an id of Layer# (where # is
replaced by a number, Layer# is the default format but may easily be changed
to any id name you wish to use) with inline CSS-P style properties. There is
nothing proprietary about DW's implementation of layers but it is
unfortunate that the positional information is stored in the tag becuase it
makes it more difficult, for the novice, to extract the CSS and place it in
an embedded or external stylesheet.
-----Original Message-----
From: darrel.austin [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
css-p (what you call 'layers'--which is really an outdated term)
From: Karen Looney
Date: Thu, Dec 02 2004 7:04AM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | Next message →
Thank you all for responding. However, I should have been more specific with my original question.
What I was referring to was the pro's & con's of tables vs. layers in respect to accessibilities...
For instance, is it easier for screen readers to follow/interpret text if it's within a ?
Can anyone provide URLs that address the design issues for making table-less designs accessible?
Thanks,
Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: darrel.austin [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 4:07 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] tables vs. layers
> Can anyone tell me the pro's and con's to using tables / layers for
> designing the layout of a website?
tables
------
pros: supported more consistently across browsers. fairly easy to get the
hang of.
cons: it ties the content to a specific page layout/presentation
css-p (what you call 'layers'--which is really an outdated term)
-----
pros: allows the content to be rendered independant of any specific
layout/presentation
cons: not as well supported (yet) in all browsers. Still need to know some
of the tricks/hacks to get it working.
In the end, it's good to know how to use both and when to use either one as
the need arrises.
In terms of accessibility, CSS-P's greatest advantage is that you can take
the exact same source code and present it to a variety of devices fairly
easily...visual browser, screen reader, PDA, etc.
-Darrel
----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: julian.rickards@ndm.gov.on.ca
Date: Thu, Dec 02 2004 7:22AM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | Next message →
JAWS announces the dimensions of tables every time a new one is encountered
so if you have an outer table with nested tables, or worse, multiple-nested
tables, JAWS announces the dimensions of each one as they are encountered.
This may not be an accessibility issue per se in that it does not
necessarily prevent the screen reader user from accessing the information in
the table cells, however, it does add to the "volume of reading" and could
very well reduce the ability of the user to remember real content if they
keep hearing the table dimensions.
There also is the concern that the tables may not linearize properly
depending on how the designer laid out the tables.
HTH,
Jules
-----Original Message-----
From: karen.looney [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Thank you all for responding. However, I should have been more specific with
my original question.
What I was referring to was the pro's & con's of tables vs. layers in
respect to accessibilities...
For instance, is it easier for screen readers to follow/interpret text if
it's within a ?
Can anyone provide URLs that address the design issues for making table-less
designs accessible?
From: Chris Heilmann
Date: Thu, Dec 02 2004 7:29AM
Subject: Re: tables vs. layers
← Previous message | No next message
>
> Thank you all for responding. However, I should have been more specific
> with my original question.
> What I was referring to was the pro's & con's of tables vs. layers in
> respect to accessibilities...
>
> For instance, is it easier for screen readers to follow/interpret text if
> it's within a ?
> Can anyone provide URLs that address the design issues for making
> table-less designs accessible?
Tables are data constructs, and screen readers read them out (Table with x
columns in y rows), which can be very annoying when you nest them.
CSS-only layouts also allow the user to completely change the design by
applying a user stylesheet, whereas table layouts have a fixed grid.
Most of these issues are discussed in the presentation I posted though.
There was a wonderful site with audio examples for a tableless and a
tables site but I cannot find it any longer :(.
--
Chris Heilmann
http://icant.co.uk/ | http://www.onlinetools.org/