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Thread: Tabindexes

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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 2:53PM
Subject: Tabindexes
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Hi,

I'd like to use tab indexes to make keyboard navigation a little easier
in the template I'm building. But what I'm thinking is that rather than
index every menu link (there are a lot) it might be a better idea to
only index a few tab stops that people might want to get to fast if
they need or want to use the keyboard and leave the rest of the tab
order at its defaults. So I've indexed in order the skip nav link, the
link to the catalog (we're a library web site), and the search form.
After that, all tab stops go in their default order.

I can't think of any downside to this method. What am I missing?


You can see what I mean here:
http://www.joneslibrary.org/newbanner13.html

Thanks,

Seth

From: Hoffman, David
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 3:06PM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
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The downside is that by deviating from an anticipated tab order, you are
likely to seriously confuse the visual keyboard user who is unlikely to
expect the customized behavior. Keep in mind that unless you are building a
web application that will be used by the same people over and over again,
your site is one among many other sites. Users will not expect to need to
learn the quirks of sites that deviate from the typical expected tab
behavior.

What does your template look like? I have experimented with techniques for
improving keyboard navigation without creating unusual behaviors...

Take Care,
David

-----Original Message-----
From: sethmr [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 4:57 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Tabindexes



Hi,

I'd like to use tab indexes to make keyboard navigation a little easier
in the template I'm building. But what I'm thinking is that rather than
index every menu link (there are a lot) it might be a better idea to
only index a few tab stops that people might want to get to fast if
they need or want to use the keyboard and leave the rest of the tab
order at its defaults. So I've indexed in order the skip nav link, the
link to the catalog (we're a library web site), and the search form.
After that, all tab stops go in their default order.

I can't think of any downside to this method. What am I missing?


You can see what I mean here:
http://www.joneslibrary.org/newbanner13.html

Thanks,

Seth

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 3:30PM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →


On Dec 15, 2004, at 4:58 PM, david.hoffman wrote:

>
> The downside is that by deviating from an anticipated tab order, you
> are
> likely to seriously confuse the visual keyboard user who is unlikely to
> expect the customized behavior.


> What does your template look like? I have experimented with techniques
> for
> improving keyboard navigation without creating unusual behaviors...

David,

Good point about expected behavior. The template is basically a logo
plus lots of links hidden in a horizontal ul with css styled ul drop
downs that appear on mouse hovers and, beneath that, a little site
search form. I want people who might also use the skip nav link to have
a quick way of getting to the search form so I gave it low number in
the tab order even though it comes after the menu. That way, even
though the skip nav link passes over the search form, there's an easy
way back to it. Same with the link to the catalog which is the last
link in the menu and I don't want to torture people using the tab key.

You can test it out at http://www.joneslibrary.org/newbanner13.html

Thanks,

Seth

From: Andrew Arch
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 3:53PM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →

Seth,

David's point is quite correct - you are creating a non-visual tab order and
potential confusing those who might be visual non-mouse users (a lot of
people with physical disabilities).

The other thing I noticed was the disappearance of the tab focus as I tab
through the menu - is this due to drop-down menus that are not dropped down
on tabbing? This was also quite confusing. Best practice (IMHO) is not to
provide keyboard/tab access to the expanded menu, but to allow keyboard
users to just access the top level and then go to an intermediate page with
the dropdown choices clearly visible. On analysis I found 55 links on your
page, but far less that I could see where I was going to. This meant that
"About Us" was link 27 on the page, rather than link 9 - very annoying and
tedious!

Cheers, Andrew
_________________________________
Dr Andrew Arch
Accessible Information Solutions, NILS
Ph +613 9864 9282; Fax +613 9864 9370
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/

National Information and Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.


-----Original Message-----
From: sethmr [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, 16 December 2004 9:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tabindexes




On Dec 15, 2004, at 4:58 PM, david.hoffman wrote:

>
> The downside is that by deviating from an anticipated tab order, you
> are
> likely to seriously confuse the visual keyboard user who is unlikely to
> expect the customized behavior.


> What does your template look like? I have experimented with techniques
> for
> improving keyboard navigation without creating unusual behaviors...

David,

Good point about expected behavior. The template is basically a logo
plus lots of links hidden in a horizontal ul with css styled ul drop
downs that appear on mouse hovers and, beneath that, a little site
search form. I want people who might also use the skip nav link to have
a quick way of getting to the search form so I gave it low number in
the tab order even though it comes after the menu. That way, even
though the skip nav link passes over the search form, there's an easy
way back to it. Same with the link to the catalog which is the last
link in the menu and I don't want to torture people using the tab key.

You can test it out at http://www.joneslibrary.org/newbanner13.html

Thanks,

Seth

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 4:13PM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →


On Dec 15, 2004, at 5:54 PM, andrew.arch85 wrote:

> The other thing I noticed was the disappearance of the tab focus as I
> tab
> through the menu - is this due to drop-down menus that are not dropped
> down
> on tabbing? This was also quite confusing. Best practice (IMHO) is not
> to
> provide keyboard/tab access to the expanded menu, but to allow keyboard
> users to just access the top level and then go to an intermediate page
> with
> the dropdown choices clearly visible. On analysis I found 55 links on
> your
> page, but far less that I could see where I was going to. This meant
> that
> "About Us" was link 27 on the page, rather than link 9 - very annoying
> and
> tedious!
>

Thanks for the input. So all the submenu links should have tab indexes
of -1? That's an excellent idea!

Seth

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 4:46PM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →


On Dec 15, 2004, at 5:54 PM, andrew.arch85 wrote:

> Best practice (IMHO) is not to
> provide keyboard/tab access to the expanded menu, but to allow keyboard
> users to just access the top level and then go to an intermediate page
> with
> the dropdown choices clearly visible.

Andrew,

O.k. I used tabindex="-1" and the page wouldn't validate. I changed the
-1 to 0 but then the links in the submenu are tabbable anyway. How do I
turn off tab access to links?

Seth

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 5:57PM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm so out of it at this point that I'm replying to myself.

Here's my new plan for tab indexes. I don't see any valid way to remove
some links from the tab order, but what I can do is move the links in
my submenus to the end of the page by giving them very high indexes.

So now, when a visitor tabs through the page, he or she will move along
the links on my top menu bar (which link to pages that contain
everything from the submenus that he or she is missing), go from there
to the site search and then down into the other parts of the page. The
tab order doesn't contradict the visual order of the links. And, I
don't know, but it's kind of nice that the main site links are
available at page's end too.

Again, I ask: What am I missing?

Seth

On Dec 15, 2004, at 6:16 PM, sethmr wrote:

>
>
> On Dec 15, 2004, at 5:54 PM, andrew.arch85 wrote:
>
>> The other thing I noticed was the disappearance of the tab focus as I
>> tab
>> through the menu - is this due to drop-down menus that are not
>> dropped down
>> on tabbing? This was also quite confusing. Best practice (IMHO) is
>> not to
>> provide keyboard/tab access to the expanded menu, but to allow
>> keyboard
>> users to just access the top level and then go to an intermediate
>> page with
>> the dropdown choices clearly visible. On analysis I found 55 links on
>> your
>> page, but far less that I could see where I was going to. This meant
>> that
>> "About Us" was link 27 on the page, rather than link 9 - very
>> annoying and
>> tedious!
>>
>
> Thanks for the input. So all the submenu links should have tab indexes
> of -1? That's an excellent idea!
>
> Seth
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>

From: Terrence Wood
Date: Wed, Dec 15 2004 7:58PM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →

Putting tabindex on your links prevents me from skipping your navigation
(FF 1.0/Mac). What this means is that I have to tab through your
entire navigation before getting to the content =/

Because you are using CSS why not change the html source order to
something like:

1. skip links [main content, navigation]
2. content
3. main nav
4. search
5. secondary nav.

that way it can appear the same as you have it, but tabbing will work in
a logical manner. I can choose navigation or content and my keyboard
focus will follow rather than tabbing through every link on the page.

Also, since you are considering keyboard users add :focus to your style
sheet, and for IE :active so I can get some feedback as to where I am in
your document.

Terrence Wood.

On 2004-12-16 10:57 AM, sethmr wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to use tab indexes to make keyboard navigation a little easier
> in the template I'm building.
>
> I can't think of any downside to this method. What am I missing?
>
--
"You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away."
-Antoine de Saint-Exupery

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2004 6:27AM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →


On Dec 15, 2004, at 10:05 PM, tdw wrote:

>
> Putting tabindex on your links prevents me from skipping your
> navigation (FF 1.0/Mac). What this means is that I have to tab
> through your entire navigation before getting to the content =/

Currently tabbing through the page should take you through the top 7 or
8 links of the nav bar but skip the links in the submenu until you tab
to the bottom of the page.

> Because you are using CSS why not change the html source order to
> something like:
>
> 1. skip links [main content, navigation]
> 2. content
> 3. main nav
> 4. search
> 5. secondary nav.
>
> that way it can appear the same as you have it, but tabbing will work
> in a logical manner. I can choose navigation or content and my
> keyboard focus will follow rather than tabbing through every link on
> the page.

Source order vs. css-p is something I really don't want to deal with.
There are too many downsides. And in any case I don't think it would
work with my menu system which is floated left.

>
> Also, since you are considering keyboard users add :focus to your
> style sheet, and for IE :active so I can get some feedback as to where
> I am in your document.
>
Not sure what you mean here. Is this some proprietary Microsoft
extension?

Thanks, Terence. I appreciate your comments.

seth

> Terrence Wood.
>
> On 2004-12-16 10:57 AM, sethmr wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I'd like to use tab indexes to make keyboard navigation a little
>> easier in the template I'm building.
>> I can't think of any downside to this method. What am I missing?
>>
> --
> "You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have
> nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away."
> -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>

From: Hoffman, David
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2004 8:33AM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →

Unfortunately, there are accessibility solutions that simply do not
validate. There simply is no way to provide certain desired functionality
for the benefit of accessibility and remain compliant with W3C standards. I
sent the W3C WAI a message about one such issue about a month ago and am
preparing to send a message about another such issue. I have not heard back.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: sethmr [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 6:50 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tabindexes




On Dec 15, 2004, at 5:54 PM, andrew.arch85 wrote:

> Best practice (IMHO) is not to
> provide keyboard/tab access to the expanded menu, but to allow
> keyboard users to just access the top level and then go to an
> intermediate page with the dropdown choices clearly visible.

Andrew,

O.k. I used tabindex="-1" and the page wouldn't validate. I changed the
-1 to 0 but then the links in the submenu are tabbable anyway. How do I
turn off tab access to links?

Seth

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Hoffman, David
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2004 8:44AM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →

This technique was featured by Moore and Matthews at UPA 2004. What are the
downsides?

-----Original Message-----
From: sethmr [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:31 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tabindexes




On Dec 15, 2004, at 10:05 PM, tdw wrote:

>
> Putting tabindex on your links prevents me from skipping your
> navigation (FF 1.0/Mac). What this means is that I have to tab
> through your entire navigation before getting to the content =/

Currently tabbing through the page should take you through the top 7 or
8 links of the nav bar but skip the links in the submenu until you tab
to the bottom of the page.

> Because you are using CSS why not change the html source order to
> something like:
>
> 1. skip links [main content, navigation]
> 2. content
> 3. main nav
> 4. search
> 5. secondary nav.
>
> that way it can appear the same as you have it, but tabbing will work
> in a logical manner. I can choose navigation or content and my
> keyboard focus will follow rather than tabbing through every link on
> the page.

Source order vs. css-p is something I really don't want to deal with.
There are too many downsides. And in any case I don't think it would
work with my menu system which is floated left.

>
> Also, since you are considering keyboard users add :focus to your
> style sheet, and for IE :active so I can get some feedback as to where
> I am in your document.
>
Not sure what you mean here. Is this some proprietary Microsoft
extension?

Thanks, Terence. I appreciate your comments.

seth

> Terrence Wood.
>
> On 2004-12-16 10:57 AM, sethmr wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I'd like to use tab indexes to make keyboard navigation a little
>> easier in the template I'm building.
>> I can't think of any downside to this method. What am I missing?
>>
> --
> "You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have
> nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away."
> -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>
> ----
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2004 9:01AM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →


On Dec 16, 2004, at 10:25 AM, david.hoffman wrote:

> Unfortunately, there are accessibility solutions that simply do not
> validate.

I agree. But I was really thinking about how that -1 value for an tab
index would work in browsers besides IE. Also, in this instance, why
isn't my solution to use tab indexes to move the drop down menu links
to the bottom of the page a good one? It feels right to me, but I look
forward to hearing why it's pain in the butt for you.

Please give it a try and let me know what you think:
http://www.joneslibrary.org/newbanner13.html

Thanks for all the responses to my questions. I may be slow, but I will
get it eventually.

Seth

From: Hoffman, David
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2004 9:19AM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | Next message →

The downside is confusing the visual user when they tab to the hidden links
and lose sense of where they are. It's better because that won't happen
unless they tab beyond the visible links, but it is confusing. I don't know
how other browsers respond to tabindex=-1. If you find out, let me know!

David

-----Original Message-----
From: sethmr [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 11:04 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tabindexes




On Dec 16, 2004, at 10:25 AM, david.hoffman wrote:

> Unfortunately, there are accessibility solutions that simply do not
> validate.

I agree. But I was really thinking about how that -1 value for an tab
index would work in browsers besides IE. Also, in this instance, why
isn't my solution to use tab indexes to move the drop down menu links
to the bottom of the page a good one? It feels right to me, but I look
forward to hearing why it's pain in the butt for you.

Please give it a try and let me know what you think:
http://www.joneslibrary.org/newbanner13.html

Thanks for all the responses to my questions. I may be slow, but I will
get it eventually.

Seth

----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2004 9:39AM
Subject: Re: Tabindexes
← Previous message | No next message

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004, david.hoffman wrote:

> Unfortunately, there are accessibility solutions that simply do not
> validate.

Perhaps. Can you give an example, just for curiosity?

(tabindex="-1" won't do; it _decreases_ accessibility; besides,
it's not invalid in XHTML ;-) )

--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/