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Thread: Opening new windows
Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)
From: Glenda
Date: Mon, Feb 07 2005 2:20PM
Subject: Opening new windows
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I understand the opening of new windows without announcing them can be a problem for those using screen readers. I am wondering about the general usability of new browser windows opening. Is this a problem for newbies and such? Personally I find sites where I end up with umpteen windows open very annoying. I don't know if that is just me.
The reason I ask is I just finished a makeover for my own site [feedback welcomed] and an Internet marketing guru suggested that I have links open in new windows so that I don't lose my visitors. Makes sense in theory, but I wasn't keen in terms of accessibility and usability. Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Glenda
Soaring Eagle Communications
http://www.eaglecom.bc.ca
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From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Feb 07 2005 2:41PM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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glenda wrote:
> Is this a problem for newbies and such?
It can be a problem, yes. I have witnessed many new users (particularly
elderly, less "tech savvy" ones - although this of course has nothing to
do with age, but technical expertise...not wanting to sound ageist or
anything) not realising that a new window was openend (if it's full
screen) and then wondering why the back button doesn't take them, well,
back to where they came from.
> The reason I ask is I just finished a makeover for my own site [feedback welcomed] and an Internet marketing guru suggested that I have links open in new windows so that I don't lose my visitors.
The classic reason. I'd be controversial and say that if your site is
worth coming back to, users will come back. The fear of losing people
(and, conversely, the desire to trap / capture them) is understandable,
but should be achieved through enticing content, valuable service,
etc...not by (admittedly simple, and all too common place) technical
trickery.
Maybe in contrast with the previous "newbie" statement, I'd also argue
that users should be given a choice as to how they want to deal with a
link: same window, new window, new tab. Admittedly, most average users
won't know about things like "right-click and choose open in new window"
or "ctrl+left click" etc, so that then brings up the spiny topic of user
education and browsers making their controls and options more readily
available and obvious...
At least you have the "without warning the user" bit down, by the sound
of it. That's at least a first step.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_____________________________________________________
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
From: Glenda
Date: Mon, Feb 07 2005 2:51PM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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Thanks Patrick,
I definitely agree. I guess I was looking for some back up [though no doubt there'll be some dissenting opinions on this list]. Hmm, if I could mesh Internet marketing with web accessibility, I may have another new service.
Cheers,
Glenda
Soaring Eagle Communications
www.eaglecom.bc.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: redux [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:43 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Opening new windows
glenda wrote:
> Is this a problem for newbies and such?
It can be a problem, yes. I have witnessed many new users (particularly
elderly, less "tech savvy" ones - although this of course has nothing to
do with age, but technical expertise...not wanting to sound ageist or
anything) not realising that a new window was openend (if it's full
screen) and then wondering why the back button doesn't take them, well,
back to where they came from.
> The reason I ask is I just finished a makeover for my own site [feedback welcomed] and an Internet marketing guru suggested that I have links open in new windows so that I don't lose my visitors.
The classic reason. I'd be controversial and say that if your site is
worth coming back to, users will come back. The fear of losing people
(and, conversely, the desire to trap / capture them) is understandable,
but should be achieved through enticing content, valuable service,
etc...not by (admittedly simple, and all too common place) technical
trickery.
Maybe in contrast with the previous "newbie" statement, I'd also argue
that users should be given a choice as to how they want to deal with a
link: same window, new window, new tab. Admittedly, most average users
won't know about things like "right-click and choose open in new window"
or "ctrl+left click" etc, so that then brings up the spiny topic of user
education and browsers making their controls and options more readily
available and obvious...
At least you have the "without warning the user" bit down, by the sound
of it. That's at least a first step.
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_____________________________________________________
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
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From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Mon, Feb 07 2005 2:54PM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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glenda wrote:
> an Internet marketing guru
> suggested that I have links open in new windows so that I
> don't lose my visitors. Makes sense in theory, but I wasn't
> keen in terms of accessibility and usability. Any thoughts?
>
Glenda,
I think your "Guru" is an idiot. Here's the analogy I use: You have a
clothing store; Somebody walks in. You lock the door; you won't let them
out unless they buy something, or it's closing time. You might get stung
once, but you won't go back again will you?
Another store welcomes you and spends time assisting you. After spending
some time checking out the clothes racks you thank the clerk for their
service, but don't buy anything that day. But as you leave the store, you
remark to your friend that you'll go back there for sure - good friendly
service, and excellent value!
The web is about links. The web is about information. The web is about
sharing information (why do blogs rank so high in web searches?). Sites
that have valuable, useful information get repeat visits, those that don't
sit there and take up server space. The end.
Trying to "trick" users to stay at your sites is just dumb. It's not 1996,
it's 2005 for gosh sakes. What's that old saw... "If you love them sent
them free..."
If your site offers value and a pleasant user experience, the visitors will
return, no tricks required. At some point, your visitors are going to leave
anyway, if only to turn off their computers Gimme a break...
Accessibility aside, this is just dumb poor usability. I don't always agree
with Jakob Nielson, but he says it best here:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Mon, Feb 07 2005 2:58PM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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> The reason I ask is I just finished a makeover for my own site
> [feedback welcomed] and an Internet marketing guru suggested that I
> have links open in new windows so that I don't lose my visitors.
Kind of a silly argument. People know how to use BACK buttons.
In the end, I use the argument that it's the customers browser...not mine.
I'll let them decide if they want to open a new window or not.
I have found...especially those folks that tend to use every program on
their computer fully maximized...that having new windows pop-up using the
TARGET attribute causes confusion as it opens a new window fully maximized,
so it looks just like the one they were just on, except now their back
button is 'broken'.
Tell your Guru that 'not annoying customers' is typically the best way to
keep them as customers.
-Darrel
From: Glenda
Date: Mon, Feb 07 2005 3:28PM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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Thanks John!
I love your analogy! May I use it?
The scary part, to me, is if this is the type of advice Internet marketing
types are dishing out, will we ever have an accessible Internet? I guess we
need to bring them onboard too.
Cheers,
Glenda
Soaring Eagle Communications
www.eaglecom.bc.ca
-----Original Message-----
From: foliot [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:51 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Opening new windows
glenda wrote:
> an Internet marketing guru
> suggested that I have links open in new windows so that I
> don't lose my visitors. Makes sense in theory, but I wasn't
> keen in terms of accessibility and usability. Any thoughts?
>
Glenda,
I think your "Guru" is an idiot. Here's the analogy I use: You have a
clothing store; Somebody walks in. You lock the door; you won't let them
out unless they buy something, or it's closing time. You might get stung
once, but you won't go back again will you?
Another store welcomes you and spends time assisting you. After spending
some time checking out the clothes racks you thank the clerk for their
service, but don't buy anything that day. But as you leave the store, you
remark to your friend that you'll go back there for sure - good friendly
service, and excellent value!
The web is about links. The web is about information. The web is about
sharing information (why do blogs rank so high in web searches?). Sites
that have valuable, useful information get repeat visits, those that don't
sit there and take up server space. The end.
Trying to "trick" users to stay at your sites is just dumb. It's not 1996,
it's 2005 for gosh sakes. What's that old saw... "If you love them sent
them free..."
If your site offers value and a pleasant user experience, the visitors will
return, no tricks required. At some point, your visitors are going to leave
anyway, if only to turn off their computers Gimme a break...
Accessibility aside, this is just dumb poor usability. I don't always agree
with Jakob Nielson, but he says it best here:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca 1.866.932.4878 (North America)
----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
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From: Mark Magennis
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2005 7:44AM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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> I understand the opening of new windows without announcing
> them can be a problem for those using screen readers.
True, and like Patrick, I have witnessed many new users having problems
with spawned windows and I'm not just talking about screen reader users.
Less computer-savvy sighted users can also have problems with multiple
windows if they don't realise they are in a new one.
But how about this direct quote from a website user test we conducted
yesterday with a blind user using the JAWS screen reader: "I would
prefer the downloaded documents to open in a new browser window". Note
that this user is very experienced and tech-savvy and he is talking
specifically about "download documents".
So there are always conflicting user preferences. One answer is to
include the statement "(opens in a new window)" as part of the link text
(along with "PDF 168KB" and other useful information as appropriate).
This reduces the problem but may still cause problems for newbies. Even
though they now know they are in a new window, they may still have
problems negotiating their way back. But then you come into the
territory of how much can you reasonably expect users to be able to
handle on their computers - "the spiny topic of user education" as
Patrick puts it. Spiny indeed. I retire from the conversation at this
point :-{
Mark
Dr. Mark Magennis
Director of the Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)
National Council for the Blind of Ireland
Whitworth Road, Dublin 9, Republic of Ireland
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = tel: +353 (0)71 914 7464
From: Mark Magennis
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2005 7:48AM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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> The scary part, to me, is if this is the type of advice
> Internet marketing types are dishing out, will we ever have
> an accessible Internet? I guess we need to bring them onboard too.
I think we do, as much as is possible. A little awareness raising can go
a long way, although probably not all the way. They do have different
objectives from ours after all, and ones they would consider as valid as
we consider ours. I hope that when you try to bring them on board you
don't follow John's line of calling them "idiots" and "dumb".
Mark
Dr. Mark Magennis
Director of the Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)
National Council for the Blind of Ireland
Whitworth Road, Dublin 9, Republic of Ireland
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = tel: +353 (0)71 914 7464
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2005 7:56AM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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> "I would
> prefer the downloaded documents to open in a new browser window". Note
> that this user is very experienced and tech-savvy and he is talking
> specifically about "download documents".
The problem with that is that it is impossible to do that consistently.
Whether or not a 'downloaded document' opens in your browser or not is up to
you and how you've set up your various media plug-ins. Anyone that doesn't
have a particular plug-in, or prefers not to use it, will end up with both a
downloaded document and a mysterious blank browser window.
-Darrel
From: Mark Magennis
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2005 8:33AM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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> The problem with that is that it is impossible to do that
> consistently. Whether or not a 'downloaded document' opens in
> your browser or not is up to you and how you've set up your
> various media plug-ins.
Tell me more Darrel. Do you mean that to force a new window, you have to
use JavaScript or some other scripting language for which support is not
guaranteed? Or do you mean that the document will automatically open in
your browser if you have the appropriate plug-in installed but will open
in another application window otherwise? What happens if you don't have
the plug-in or the desktop application required to view the file? Does
it offer to save it for you?
Thanks,
Mark
Dr. Mark Magennis
Director of the Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)
National Council for the Blind of Ireland
Whitworth Road, Dublin 9, Republic of Ireland
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = tel: +353 (0)71 914 7464
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2005 9:48AM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
← Previous message | Next message →
> Tell me more Darrel. Do you mean that to force a new window, you have
> to use JavaScript or some other scripting language for which support
> is not guaranteed? Or do you mean that the document will
> automatically open in your browser if you have the appropriate
> plug-in installed but will open in another application window
> otherwise? What happens if you don't have the plug-in or the desktop
> application required to view the file? Does it offer to save it for
> you?
Let's take PDF files as an example. There are two ways to view PDF files
online:
1) using the PDF plug-in, you can have it open inside your browser's
viewport
2) not using the PDF plug-in, you can have your browser do what you want it
to do...typically either prompting you to save it somewhere, or else
downloading it for you and opening it in your PDF-viewing application of
choice.
A PDF is *not* a web document. Nor is an Excel file or Word document, etc.
However, companies have built plug-ins for browsers that will allow you to
view it inside the browser. Personally, I find these terribly confusing, but
hey, they are there.
So, what happens to a PDF in the browser is out of your (as the web
developer) control. They may have a plug-in, they may not. They may have the
plug-in, but have turned the option to use it off. They may be using a
browser that doesn't support the plug in. Etc.
If you target a PDF in a new window:
one of two things will happen:
1) if the person has a browser that supports the PDF plug in, and they have
it installed, and activated, the PDF will open in this new window.
2) everyone else will be asked to download the PDF, and then a blank
browser window will pop-up.
-Darrel
From: michael.brockington
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2005 10:06AM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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Can I also point from a simple usability point of view, that new windows are
even more of a pain when you are using a tabbed browser - the whole point of
the concept is to avoid multiple windows, and a sighted user has less chance
of spotting this in advance than a screen reader.
Mike
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From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2005 12:07PM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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darrel.austin wrote:
> So, what happens to a PDF in the browser is out of your (as the web
> developer) control. They may have a plug-in, they may not. They may have the
> plug-in, but have turned the option to use it off. They may be using a
> browser that doesn't support the plug in. Etc.
Which is exactly the point where I - controversially, for some - say
that the onus is *also* on the user. We can't foresee all possible
options or preferences (both software preferences and "personal taste"
ones). The users need to get to know their particular environment /
software as well.
They need to know that, say, Acrobat's preferences specifically have an
option to enable/disable the opening of documents within the browser
(which causes problems, because AT such as screenreaders can't "get to
the PDF" as they would if it was opened in the full, standalone
application).
Of course, who can tell them how to do it? (e.g. "set your focus on the
link, access the context menu - provided your keyboard has that key next
to the right CTRL - and choose 'save as...'" etc)
Is it the web developer's responsibility to teach users how they should
use their own system? Or is the onus on the software manufacturers to
make those options more obvious? Or the users themselves?
Who bears the responsibility of user education? I'd argue that we, as
developers, can certainly meet the users half-way, but we can't hold
them by the hand for the entire process...
--
Patrick H. Lauke
_____________________________________________________
re
From: Mark Magennis
Date: Wed, Feb 09 2005 5:41AM
Subject: Re: Opening new windows
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> Is it the web developer's responsibility to teach users how
> they should
> use their own system? Or is the onus on the software manufacturers to
> make those options more obvious? Or the users themselves?
In my opinion, the software manufacturers bear a great deal of
responsibility and are in the best position to make a significant
difference. If you just look at what it is like for normal people to use
a PC running Windows. Many Windows applications, and Windows itself, are
vastly over complicated for most users. There is a definite emphasis on
adding functionality rather than increasing simplicity and usability.
What customisation is available is not coherently implemented and
usually makes things more complex rather than less. The whole thing ends
up being unfathomable and unpredictable for many users. Basically, it's
a complete mess. Imagine if cars were built like PC software. Nearly
everyone would be dead by now.
Mark