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Thread: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: Mamta Tandel
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 4:32AM
Subject: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Hi all,
There are two things that can make a simple data table accessible:
1. Scope attribute
2. The header tag <th> (for the column and row headers)
With JAWS, a table with headers reads just as fine as with a table with
scope attribute.
The point is why do developers have to add an extra code by providing the
scope attribute when the same job can be done with headers?
Can someone let me know...
Do we need really need scope attribute?
Awaiting response.
Regards,
Mamta Tandel
From: Jan Eric Hellbusch
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 4:52AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Hi,
> Can someone let me know...
> Do we need really need scope attribute?
You will need scope for multicolumn headers. Otherwise TH should be
sufficient.
Jan
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Jan Eric Hellbusch
Tel.: 02 31 / 2 25 15 73 oder 01 63 / 3 36 99 25
.biz: http://2bweb.de
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From: Nancy Swenson
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 4:53AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute? (Out of the
Office)
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Hello,
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From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Mon, Jul 18 2005 8:34PM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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This is a very troubling question for me. Today screen readers assume the
first row and the first column are headers with no markup whatsoever. Well,
to be good citizens, we add TH's on those table cells that are headers even
though the screen readers don't need them. But the scope attribute? I
believe the ONLY cell that needs a scope attribute is the cell in the first
row and first column, cell 1,1, because that corner cell could either be a
row header or a column header (or neither). What scope could the TH in row
1, column 7 have besides scope="col".
I advise clients to use TH and scope - but darn it, it is redundant and
unnecessary - even silly!
Jim
Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Mamta Tandel
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 5:34 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
Hi all,
There are two things that can make a simple data table accessible:
1. Scope attribute
2. The header tag <th> (for the column and row headers)
With JAWS, a table with headers reads just as fine as with a table with
scope attribute.
The point is why do developers have to add an extra code by providing the
scope attribute when the same job can be done with headers?
Can someone let me know...
Do we need really need scope attribute?
Awaiting response.
Regards,
Mamta Tandel
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 12:23AM
Subject: Re: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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> I advise clients to use TH and scope but darn it, it is redundant and
> unnecessary even silly!
Is that the same logic that makes people use attributes without quotes
and not close tags? Most modern browsers display that fine, why
bother then? :-)
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 2:01AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Jim,
Technically speaking, HTML 4.01 Spec. says:
'TH is for headers, TD for data, but for cells acting as both use TD'.
So, the below code would be preferred:
(capital letters and no closing tags used for clarity)
<TR>
<TH scope="col">Column A
<TH scope="col">Column B
<TR>
<TD scope="row">1 A
<TD>1 B
<TR>
<TD scope="row">2 A
<TD>2 B
Regarding User Agent's (UA) behaviour,
I do not know whether:
1) <TD scope="row">
2) <TH scope="row">
3) <TH>
are rendered differently (in benefit for the user).
As for your clients:
Tell them that Section 508 (1194.22) suggests using
<TH scope="col"> and <TD scope="row">. [1]
I'm sure your clients will accept '508' as authority, whether or not '508' is in fact correct (technically/UA behaviour).
Also, the more complex something is, the more your clients will view you as an expert, to your credit <smile>.
Finally, 'scope' might become (more?) useful in future UAs/browsers (compare HTML vs. XHTML).
Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt
[1]
http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(g)
Further reading:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#adef-scope
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html#h-11.4
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns
http://www.webaim.org/techniques/tables/2#scope
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Thatcher"
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:35:19 -0500
> This is a very troubling question for me. Today screen readers assume the
> first row and the first column are headers with no markup whatsoever. Well,
> to be good citizens, we add TH's on those table cells that are headers even
> though the screen readers don't need them. But the scope attribute? I
> believe the ONLY cell that needs a scope attribute is the cell in the first
> row and first column, cell 1,1, because that corner cell could either be a
> row header or a column header (or neither). What scope could the TH in row
> 1, column 7 have besides scope="col".
>
> I advise clients to use TH and scope - but darn it, it is redundant and
> unnecessary - even silly!
>
>
> Jim
> Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
--
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From: Cathy Mar
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 2:02AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute? (Out-of-Office)
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Thank you,
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From: Stephane Deschamps
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 2:06AM
Subject: Re: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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On 7/19/05, Jim Thatcher wrote:
>
> This is a very troubling question for me. Today screen readers assume the
> first row and the first column are headers with no markup whatsoever. Well,
> to be good citizens, we add TH's on those table cells that are headers even
> though the screen readers don't need them. But the scope attribute? I
> believe the ONLY cell that needs a scope attribute is the cell in the first
> row and first column, cell 1,1, because that corner cell could either be a
> row header or a column header (or neither). What scope could the TH in row
> 1, column 7 have besides scope="col".
>
>
>
> I advise clients to use TH and scope but darn it, it is redundant and
> unnecessary even silly!
I'm wondering how this would apply to headers-of-headers, namely
headers that span several columns. Would the screen reader understand
the structure as clearly without the attributes?
--
Stephane Deschamps
personal: http://nota-bene.org/
org: http://evolt.org/
french org: http://pompage.net/
From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Tue, Jul 19 2005 8:59AM
Subject: RE: Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
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Christian Heilmann wrote:
>> I advise clients to use TH and scope - but darn it, it is redundant
>> and unnecessary - even silly!
>
> Is that the same logic that makes people use attributes without quotes and
not close tags?
> Most modern browsers display that fine, why bother then? :-)
I don't think it is quite the same because attributes without quotes won't
validate. It is invalid code. A situation for accessibility that is
comparable to quoted attributes is alt-text on "formatting" images. With no
alt-text or with alt="" they are ignored by screen readers but alt="" is
required in order to be valid HTML - so though it makes no difference to
screen readers it still must be done.
And Stephane Deschamps:
> I'm wondering how this would apply to headers-of-headers, namely headers
that span
> several columns. Would the screen reader understand the structure as
clearly without
> the attributes?
I am talking about the simplest of simple tables - headings in row 1 and
column 1. As soon as there is any variation in that I think th's are not
redundant; though scope is debatable.
Jim
Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931
-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Heilmann [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 1:25 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Why do we need 'Scope' attribute?
> I advise clients to use TH and scope - but darn it, it is redundant
> and unnecessary - even silly!
Is that the same logic that makes people use attributes without quotes and
not close tags? Most modern browsers display that fine, why bother then?
:-)
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/