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Thread: Separating adjacent links
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Pony Smith
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2005 1:27PM
Subject: Separating adjacent links
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Hello everybody,
I've got a question about separating adjacent links.
The WCAG 1.0 states as a level 3 priority:
"10.5 Until user agents (including assistive
technologies) render adjacent links distinctly,
include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by
spaces) between adjacent links."
I've done this using the vertical bar character, which
from what I've seen is a fairly conventional usage.
However, when I asked a JAWS user to review the site,
he told me that the repetition of 'vertical bar' on a
long list of links (a list of alphabetical jump links
targeting anchors further down the page for example)
is very disruptive and unnecessary.
What's the convention then? Is it better to create a
vertical bar image and give it alt="" even though that
may not be considered a 'printable character'?
Pony Smith
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From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2005 2:01PM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
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Pony Smith wrote:
> "10.5 Until user agents (including assistive
> technologies) render adjacent links distinctly,
> include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by
> spaces) between adjacent links."
Depends on the situation. You can mark up lists of links as actual lists
and add a right-hand border to give the appearance of a vertical bar...
--
Patrick H. Lauke
___________
re
From: Andrew Arch
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2005 4:54PM
Subject: RE: Separating adjacent links
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Hi Pony,
Our staff at Vision Australia using screen readers (JAWS, WindowEyes and
HAL) reckon they just tune that sound out - it becomes like another space
between words. However, HPR requires the audible separator as otherwise it
just runs the links together. If you want to accommodate your JAWS users
better, try using a character that that JAWS reads as a one-syllable word.
Cheers, Andrew
_________________________________
Dr Andrew Arch
Accessible Information Solutions, NILS
Ph +613 9864 9282; Fax +613 9864 9370
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/
National Information and Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of Pony Smith
Sent: Thursday, 28 July 2005 5:28 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Separating adjacent links
Hello everybody,
I've got a question about separating adjacent links.
The WCAG 1.0 states as a level 3 priority:
"10.5 Until user agents (including assistive
technologies) render adjacent links distinctly,
include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by
spaces) between adjacent links."
I've done this using the vertical bar character, which
from what I've seen is a fairly conventional usage.
However, when I asked a JAWS user to review the site,
he told me that the repetition of 'vertical bar' on a
long list of links (a list of alphabetical jump links
targeting anchors further down the page for example)
is very disruptive and unnecessary.
What's the convention then? Is it better to create a
vertical bar image and give it alt="" even though that
may not be considered a 'printable character'?
Pony Smith
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From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2005 5:21PM
Subject: RE: Separating adjacent links
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Andrew wrote:
> However, HPR requires the audible separator as otherwise it just runs
> the links together.
Hi Andrew - I don't agree with that. If you are reading with HPR in links
mode you hear links one at a time, In item reading mode they are just as
strung together as they would be with a screen reader except the screen
reader puts the word "link" in front of each. If you have a separation
character, then HPR puts a low pitch "bar" (or what ever the character is)
between each, but it is not _required_ because you have links reading mode.
Jim
Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931
From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2005 5:24PM
Subject: RE: Separating adjacent links
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Andrew,
Does a list [vertical or horizontal] with the bullet hidden work for those
using HPR?
Glenda
Glenda Watson Hyatt, Principal
Soaring Eagle Communications
Accessible websites. Accessible content. Accessible solutions.
www.webaccessibility.biz
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of Andrew Arch
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 3:55 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Separating adjacent links
Hi Pony,
Our staff at Vision Australia using screen readers (JAWS, WindowEyes and
HAL) reckon they just tune that sound out - it becomes like another space
between words. However, HPR requires the audible separator as otherwise it
just runs the links together. If you want to accommodate your JAWS users
better, try using a character that that JAWS reads as a one-syllable word.
Cheers, Andrew
_________________________________
Dr Andrew Arch
Accessible Information Solutions, NILS
Ph +613 9864 9282; Fax +613 9864 9370
http://www.nils.org.au/ais/
National Information and Library Service
A subsidiary of RBS.RVIB.VAF Ltd.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of Pony Smith
Sent: Thursday, 28 July 2005 5:28 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Separating adjacent links
Hello everybody,
I've got a question about separating adjacent links.
The WCAG 1.0 states as a level 3 priority:
"10.5 Until user agents (including assistive
technologies) render adjacent links distinctly,
include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by
spaces) between adjacent links."
I've done this using the vertical bar character, which
from what I've seen is a fairly conventional usage.
However, when I asked a JAWS user to review the site,
he told me that the repetition of 'vertical bar' on a
long list of links (a list of alphabetical jump links
targeting anchors further down the page for example)
is very disruptive and unnecessary.
What's the convention then? Is it better to create a
vertical bar image and give it alt="" even though that
may not be considered a 'printable character'?
Pony Smith
___
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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for me
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From: Terrence Wood
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2005 5:44PM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
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Andrew, can you suggest some characters please?
On 28 Jul 2005, at 10:55 AM, Andrew Arch wrote:
> try using a character that that JAWS reads as a one-syllable word.
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 1:07AM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
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Hello,
Is not Comma a good choice (or maybe Semi-colon or Colon)?
Also, can somebody point to an Web article that review different characters (for example , : ; | - >) for separating links?
Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terrence Wood"
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 11:45:40 +1200
>
> Andrew, can you suggest some characters please?
>
>
> On 28 Jul 2005, at 10:55 AM, Andrew Arch wrote:
> > try using a character that that JAWS reads as a one-syllable word.
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From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 1:09AM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
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Thomas Jedenfelt wrote:
> Also, can somebody point to an Web article that review different characters (for example , : ; | - >) for separating links?
The only article of this kind I can think of is
http://www.standards-schmandards.com/?2004/11/06/6-the-sound-of-the-accessible-title-tag-separator
--
Patrick H. Lauke
___________
re
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 1:20AM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
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Patrick,
Thanks for link!
Regards,
Thomas (Patrik) Jedenfelt
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick H. Lauke"
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:10:33 +0100
>
> Thomas Jedenfelt wrote:
> > Also, can somebody point to an Web article that review different
> > characters (for example , : ; | - >) for separating links?
>
> The only article of this kind I can think of is
> http://www.standards-schmandards.com/?2004/11/06/6-the-sound-of-the-accessible-title-tag-separator
>
> -- Patrick H. Lauke
--
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From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 2:18AM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
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On 7/28/05, Thomas Jedenfelt < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Is not Comma a good choice (or maybe Semi-colon or Colon)?
>
> Also, can somebody point to an Web article that review different characters (for example , : ; | - >) for separating links?
I am not sure, but do you think hearing "colon" 20 times on your site
gives a wrong impression?
What is wrong with using a list for links? I always thought just using
a list does make it fine for screen reader users. Visually you can
use a background image or a border to separate them.
From: Tim Beadle
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 2:24AM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
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On 7/28/05, Christian Heilmann < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> What is wrong with using a list for links? I always thought just using
> a list does make it fine for screen reader users. Visually you can
> use a background image or a border to separate them.
There's nothing wrong with it, it's just that (I suspect) not everyone
is drinking the CSS-layout kool-aid (yet).
For those that need more info re: styling lists:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/
HTH,
Tim
From: Jan Eric Hellbusch
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 2:52AM
Subject: RE: Separating adjacent links
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Hello,
> What is wrong with using a list for links? I always thought just using
> a list does make it fine for screen reader users. Visually you can
> use a background image or a border to separate them.
I think the problem is not the visual form of display. Rather there was a
major problem in older screen readers being used with braille displays. If a
charakter was omitted between links the braille display would show
Link1Link2Link3
and image what a complete navigation mechanism would look like. That also
explains the necessity for a space between the link and the character.
Lists were not supported properly by screen readers untill a couple of years
ago.
Remark: The assistive technology I am talking about doesn't even know what
CSS is.
The last time I tested this was three or four years ago. At the time we were
using JAWS 3.4 or JAWS 3.7.
Current screen readers have the option something of the like "Show links on
a single line" which separates the links on a braille display.
So, if you ask me, 10.5 is obsolete, especially since screen readers now
support lists.
Regs
Jan
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From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Thu, Jul 28 2005 3:06AM
Subject: Re: Separating adjacent links
← Previous message | No next message
> > What is wrong with using a list for links? I always thought just using
> > a list does make it fine for screen reader users. Visually you can
> > use a background image or a border to separate them.
>
> I think the problem is not the visual form of display. Rather there was a
> major problem in older screen readers being used with braille displays. If a
> charakter was omitted between links the braille display would show
Cheers for that. However, a visual separator also helps low vision
users and those with cognitive problems.
In any case, IMHO adding extra content and markup to cater for these
old user agents is like spending another 40 hours to create a Netscape
4.x style sheet. If you really want to, do it, by all means, but there
are better ways to make your site more accessible and usable.