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Thread: Best practice for warning users of opening window
Number of posts in this thread: 22 (In chronological order)
From: Paul Collins
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Best practice for warning users of opening window
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Hello all,
WAI guidelines 10.1 (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-avoid-pop-ups) state that you shouldn't use pop ups until user agents allow people to turn them off, they also state that you shouldn't change the current window without warning the user first.
Although this guideline could be open to debate, if you were to open content in a new window, could anyone suggest the best way of warning the user without making the warning visible on the page? Most screen readers don't announce titles when there is content in the HREF, is there any other way?
Thanks,
Paul
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> Tooltips are not the same as popup windows. While it is true that you
> can replace a lot of oldschool help popups with this kind of popunders
> the implementation of this library on the above page is horrible. You
> effectively make help information reliant on JavaScript, and that is
> never a good plan. Furthermore, you make it dependent on a mouse.
> Possibly you can use this library in an unobtrusive manner, but the
> way it is advertised here I would avoid it and push it far away with a
> big stick.
A very big stick indeed :)
There are better solutions for tool-tips
http://nslog.com/archives/2003/02/16/fun_with_css_link_tooltips.php
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
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On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Paul Collins wrote:
> WAI guidelines 10.1
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-avoid-pop-ups) state
> that you shouldn't use pop ups until user agents allow people to turn
> them off, they also state that you shouldn't change the current window
> without warning the user first.
This is one of the poorly formulated among the guidelines. (Of course,
"poorly formulated" is just a mildly diplomatic way of spelling
"misguided and misguiding".)
The "until user agents..." condition does not belong here. Some guidelines
with such a condition have become obsolete, and indeed harmful to
accessibility, since the condition has basically become false but people
don't know that or authors are using rules or checkers that behave as if
the condition had not ever been there.
In this case, however, the condition should not have been there. Ever. The
accessibility guideline should simply say "don't use popups". They are
irritating even to the majority, and extra risky to many groups of
disabled people.
> Although this guideline could be open to debate,
It indeed is. But think about accessibility, not guidelines. It is so
_evident_ that popups need to be avoided that anyone caring about
accessibility would immediately see this, if he just stopped thinking
about guidelines and thought about people using a page.
> if you were to open content in a new window, could anyone suggest the
> best way of warning the user without making the warning visible on the
> page?
At times we need to make compromises, so let us assume that we have been
forced to use popups.
Then the obvious solution is to include a warning (before the link, of
course, since the document might be "consumed" in a linear fashion).
If you care about accessibility, you ask how to make the warning clearly
observable to all, including sighted users using a visual browser.
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
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On 8/12/05, Michael Moore < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> One method that you could consider would be to include a small graphic
> in the link with alt="opens in a new window."
Wikipedia has a good image example of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_V_rocket
ben
From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> Paul Collins
> The line of code I am using is:
> <a onclick="popUp(this.href,'fixedscroll');return false;"
It shouldn't just return false. It should check whether or not a
new window popped up successfully, and only return false if that's the
case. Even in the "javascript on" scenario, a popup blocker may have
prevented the popUp function from working...if you then return
false under the assumption that it did work, you've effectively disabled
the link.
Depending on how your popUp function works, the change should just be
minimal though. Essentially, you want popUp to return whether or not
the call to window.open was successful.
function popUp(...) {
...
return window.open(...);
}
and in your link
onclick="return !popUp(...);"
Patrick
___________
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
___________
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
___________
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> I think using the image thing isn't a bad idea at all. Using the same
> principle, as suggested earlier, we could add a span with the text inside,
> but hidden off the page, eliminating the use of a graphic.
How does that help sighted users? I like to know that its a popup - I
may choose to open in a tab instead.
From: Paul Collins
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
>> Add to that scenario that people like myself block ALL popups (I use
>> Firefox and adblock) and it makes sense to consider your audience.
>> How does that help sighted users? I like to know that its a popup - I
>> may choose to open in a tab instead.
Very good points,
The popup scripting has been added to the "onclick" function and not the HREF, which seems to work in the instances of having Javascript turned off as well as right clicking and opening the window in a new tab through my testing. The line of code I am using is:
<a onclick="popUp(this.href,'fixedscroll');return false;" href="thepage.html" title="the page - this link will open in a new window if your browser allows popups"></a>
Using this method, I assumed the fallback if you had popups turned off would be the same as having Javascript turned off, meaning it would simply open in the same window.
If I am incorrect here please let me know.
Thanks again for your good points.
----- Original Message -----
From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Best practice for warning users of opening window
Add to that scenario that people like myself block ALL popups (I use
Firefox and adblock) and it makes sense to consider your audience.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of ben morrison
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 10:31 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for warning users of opening window
> I think using the image thing isn't a bad idea at all. Using the same
> principle, as suggested earlier, we could add a span with the text
> inside, but hidden off the page, eliminating the use of a graphic.
How does that help sighted users? I like to know that its a popup - I
may choose to open in a tab instead.
Address list
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> Although this guideline could be open to debate, if you were
> to open content in a new window, could anyone suggest the
> best way of warning the user without making the warning
> visible on the page? Most screen readers don't announce
> titles when there is content in the HREF, is there any other way?
Why wouldn't you want it visible? Even perfectly abled sighted visitors
will appreciate knowing when you're taking over their browser behavior.
Not sure what you mean by 'the design of the site doesn't allow for
this'. This is very much a part of the design. Fight for it! ;o)
As for the image issue, again, this isn't really helping anyone that
uses a visual browser. Don't fall into the mistake of assuming
accessibility = screen reader. If you do use an image, make it at least
big enough where you could make it a visual icon to indicate a pop-up.
(I've used icons like the Wikipedia example for a while).
-Darrel
From: Paul Collins
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi all,
Although best practice is not to use popups, there are some circumstances where it is a necessary evil unfortunately. So during those rare occasions, there must be a responsible way of doing so.
I think using the image thing isn't a bad idea at all. Using the same principle, as suggested earlier, we could add a span with the text inside, but hidden off the page, eliminating the use of a graphic.
Thanks for your comments
----- Original Message -----
From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Best practice for warning users of opening window
Paul Collins Sent a message on Friday, August 12, 2005 7:45 AM asking
for Best practice for warning users of opening window. His question: "if
you were to open content in a new window, could anyone suggest the best
way of warning the user without making the warning visible on the page?"
Well, you specifically asked how but I will start with saying don't do
pop-ups. Backup and reassess the need for a popup. To suggest a solution
to your crafted problem, how about a link that uses an image with alt
text stating "Link to new content (this will pop open a new window)".
You asked for suggestions. I didn't say it was a *good* suggestion.
Regards,
Norman Robinson
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> Add to that scenario that people like myself block ALL popups (I use
> Firefox and adblock) and it makes sense to consider your audience.
Which is not an accessibility issue. A good popup script should check
if a window was opened and then not return to the link, otherwise it
should follow the link in the same window, which caters for your
scenario, too.
You _chose_ to stop popups, if that is an accessibility issue then I
could also claim discrimination towards companies that have web sites
that fail to deliver me their secrets when I turn my monitor off.
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Christian Heilmann wrote:
>> Add to that scenario that people like myself block ALL popups (I use
>> Firefox and adblock) and it makes sense to consider your audience.
>
> Which is not an accessibility issue.
It is. One thing that makes people's browsing situations different is the
decisions they make. Accessibility isn't just accessibility to the
disabled. Besides, turning security settings to a maximum may well be a
symptom of a mental disability - though most security specialists think
that "paranoia is good". As content providers, we cannot and we need not
distinguish the effects of sound and recommended paranoia (in the
figurative sense) from those of paranoia as an abnormal state of mind.
> A good popup script should check
> if a window was opened and then not return to the link, otherwise it
> should follow the link in the same window,
Certainly.
> which caters for your scenario, too.
It still does not make the popup thing accessible. If the author has taken
precautions, the popup won't hurt when popups are disabled. But the popup
is still there, and it will hurt when it "works". How much would you like
to distract a user who has severe problems in dealing _one_ thing at a
time? (Actually, any one of us is such a user in some situations.)
> You _chose_ to stop popups, if that is an accessibility issue then I
> could also claim discrimination towards companies that have web sites
> that fail to deliver me their secrets when I turn my monitor off.
You could indeed. Accessible sites are accessible without a monitor, e.g.
using a speech browser.
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> Jukka K. Korpela
> At times we need to make compromises, so let us assume that
> we have been
> forced to use popups.
>
> Then the obvious solution is to include a warning (before the
> link, of
> course, since the document might be "consumed" in a linear fashion).
Or even, I'd say, as part of a link, as a user may have just been tabbing
from link to link, rather than reading the page sequentially and in full...
Patrick
___________
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
___________
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
___________
From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
> Add to that scenario that people like myself block ALL popups (I use
> Firefox and adblock) and it makes sense to consider your audience.
If coded properly, the links would still work despite popup blocking,
provided that the javascript used checks for the return value of the
window.open call a la
<a href="blah.html" onclick="return !window.open(this.href,...)">
Also: would FF/adblock prevent the link from working even if the popup
was triggered by an explicit user action (activating a link, rather
than an onload event on the page body)?
Patrick
___________
Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
___________
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
___________
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
> WAI guidelines 10.1
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-avoid-pop-ups)
> state that you shouldn't use pop ups until user agents allow people to turn
> them off, they also state that you shouldn't change the current window
> without warning the user first.
>
> Although this guideline could be open to debate, if you were to open content
> in a new window, could anyone suggest the best way of warning the user
> without making the warning visible on the page? Most screen readers don't
> announce titles when there is content in the HREF, is there any other way?
"Warning" and "not visible" in the same sentence is an interesting
approach to accessibility.
And no, there is no practical way. You _could_ add the (opens in a new
window) message in a span and hide it dynamically or via "accessible"
CSS, but why hide it at all? Sighted users might want to know they get
a popup, too.
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Paul Collins
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
Good point, unfortunately the design of the site doesn't allow for this and I don't get to have much input on that side of things. I'm trying to do best with what I have.
I think adding a span in the link might be the best idea. Thanks for your advice
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Christian Heilmann
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for warning users of opening window
> WAI guidelines 10.1
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-avoid-pop-ups)
> state that you shouldn't use pop ups until user agents allow people to turn
> them off, they also state that you shouldn't change the current window
> without warning the user first.
>
> Although this guideline could be open to debate, if you were to open content
> in a new window, could anyone suggest the best way of warning the user
> without making the warning visible on the page? Most screen readers don't
> announce titles when there is content in the HREF, is there any other way?
"Warning" and "not visible" in the same sentence is an interesting
approach to accessibility.
And no, there is no practical way. You _could_ add the (opens in a new
window) message in a span and hide it dynamically or via "accessible"
CSS, but why hide it at all? Sighted users might want to know they get
a popup, too.
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Conyers, Dwayne
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
The Overlib JavaScript library offers creative means for popup messages.
http://www.bosrup.com/web/overlib
Hope that helps.
--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
On 8/12/05, Conyers, Dwayne < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> The Overlib JavaScript library offers creative means for popup messages.
> http://www.bosrup.com/web/overlib
Tooltips are not the same as popup windows. While it is true that you
can replace a lot of oldschool help popups with this kind of popunders
the implementation of this library on the above page is horrible. You
effectively make help information reliant on JavaScript, and that is
never a good plan. Furthermore, you make it dependent on a mouse.
Possibly you can use this library in an unobtrusive manner, but the
way it is advertised here I would avoid it and push it far away with a
big stick.
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Michael Moore
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
One method that you could consider would be to include a small graphic
in the link with alt="opens in a new window."
Mike
Paul Collins wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> WAI guidelines 10.1
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/wai-pageauth.html#tech-avoid-pop-ups) state
> that you shouldn't use pop ups until user agents allow people to turn
> them off, they also state that you shouldn't change the current
> window without warning the user first.
>
> Although this guideline could be open to debate, if you were to open
> content in a new window, could anyone suggest the best way of warning
> the user without making the warning visible on the page? Most screen
> readers don't announce titles when there is content in the HREF, is
> there any other way?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:12AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
Add to that scenario that people like myself block ALL popups (I use
Firefox and adblock) and it makes sense to consider your audience.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of ben morrison
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 10:31 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for warning users of opening window
> I think using the image thing isn't a bad idea at all. Using the same
> principle, as suggested earlier, we could add a span with the text
> inside, but hidden off the page, eliminating the use of a graphic.
How does that help sighted users? I like to know that its a popup - I
may choose to open in a tab instead.
Address list
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:11AM
Subject: Re: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
On 8/12/05, Paul Collins < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Good point, unfortunately the design of the site doesn't allow for this and
> I don't get to have much input on that side of things. I'm trying to do best
> with what I have.
>
> I think adding a span in the link might be the best idea. Thanks for your
> advice
If you are accountable for the accessibility of the product and the
design is just not catered for accessibility then escalate it to your
line manager, otherwise you will be the scapegoat when there are
problems.
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:11AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | Next message →
Paul Collins Sent a message on Friday, August 12, 2005 7:45 AM asking
for Best practice for warning users of opening window. His question: "if
you were to open content in a new window, could anyone suggest the best
way of warning the user without making the warning visible on the page?"
Well, you specifically asked how but I will start with saying don't do
pop-ups. Backup and reassess the need for a popup. To suggest a solution
to your crafted problem, how about a link that uses an image with alt
text stating "Link to new content (this will pop open a new window)".
You asked for suggestions. I didn't say it was a *good* suggestion.
Regards,
Norman Robinson
From: Conyers, Dwayne
Date: Fri, Aug 12 2005 11:48AM
Subject: RE: Best practice for warning users of opening window
← Previous message | No next message
ben morrison wrote:
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:53 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for warning users of opening
window
>
> > Tooltips are not the same as popup windows. While it is true that
you
> > can replace a lot of oldschool help popups with this kind of
popunders
> > the implementation of this library on the above page is horrible.
You
> > effectively make help information reliant on JavaScript, and that is
> > never a good plan. Furthermore, you make it dependent on a mouse.
> > Possibly you can use this library in an unobtrusive manner, but the
> > way it is advertised here I would avoid it and push it far away with
a
> > big stick.
>
> A very big stick indeed :)
>
> There are better solutions for tool-tips
Perhaps, and admittedly the Overlib home page doesn't demonstrate the
rich features of the library (which has been extended by other
programmers to achieve a number of augmentation, including database
connectivity).
I appreciate the link you provided -- looks like another useful tool to
add to the repertoire. However, I've been able to do some very useful
things with Overlib. But, to each their own...
---
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com