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Thread: Semantic structure of 'Minutes of a Meeting'
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From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Wed, Aug 31 2005 7:20AM
Subject: Semantic structure of 'Minutes of a Meeting'
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Apologies for the cross posting...
Here's a question for the list. I've been handed a document that is
essentially the hand recorded minutes of a meeting. As presented, it
takes the format of:
Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"
Speaker 2: "more mumble here"
Speaker 1: "Response, etc."
Speaker 3: "interjection here"
...etc.
I am struggling over how I would mark this up semantically. To my
thinking I have a few choices:
1) Each Speaker's "note" is a separate paragraph, coded like this:
< p>Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"</ p>
< p>Speaker 2: "more mumble here"</ p>
2) Use a Definition list:
< dl>
< dt>Speaker 1:</ dt>
< dd>"blah blah blah"</ dd>
< dt>Speaker 12:</ dt>
< dd>"more mumble here"</ dd>
3) Use an Unordered List (as this *is* a transcript in jotted note
form):
<ul>
< li>Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"</ li>
< li>Speaker 2: "more mumble here"</ li>
</ ul>
4) Something else?
Thoughts and suggestions appreciated. Short time-lines... <grin>
Cheers!
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
From: Michael D. Roush
Date: Wed, Aug 31 2005 12:00PM
Subject: Re: Semantic structure of 'Minutes of a Meeting'
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John Foliot - WATS.ca wrote:
>Here's a question for the list. I've been handed a document that is
>essentially the hand recorded minutes of a meeting. As presented, it
>takes the format of:
>
>Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"
>
>Speaker 2: "more mumble here"
>
>Speaker 1: "Response, etc."
>
>Speaker 3: "interjection here"
>
>...etc.
>
>I am struggling over how I would mark this up semantically. To my
>thinking I have a few choices:
>
>1) Each Speaker's "note" is a separate paragraph, coded like this:
> < p>Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"</ p>
> < p>Speaker 2: "more mumble here"</ p>
>
>2) Use a Definition list:
> < dl>
> < dt>Speaker 1:</ dt>
> < dd>"blah blah blah"</ dd>
> < dt>Speaker 12:</ dt>
> < dd>"more mumble here"</ dd>
>
>3) Use an Unordered List (as this *is* a transcript in jotted note
>form):
> <ul>
> < li>Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"</ li>
> < li>Speaker 2: "more mumble here"</ li>
> </ ul>
>
>4) Something else?
>
>
>
Hmmm, a puzzler.... But, it strikes me that if this was indeed a
meeting where minutes were recorded, there ought to have been (or it
should be apparent that there was) some sort of an agenda. Each agenda
item would be a heading (whatever level you are at. Some people would
argue they can be < h1>s, some people clamor that a page shouldn't have
more than one < h1> on it, the logic of which eludes me).
Below the heading (say, < h2>Agenda Item< /h2>), I would include
subheadings such as:
< h2>Agenda Item< /h2>
< h3>Discussion< /h3>
< p>Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"< /p>
< p>Speaker 2: "more mumble here"< /p>
< p>Willy: "Mumbler!"< /p>
I think the dialog makes more sense as paragraphs than anything else.
They are, I suppose, a "list" of things that were said, but they are not
semantically an unordered list, because they must appear in the given
order for them to make sense. The thing about an ordered list that
wouldn't make sense is the appearance of numbering, but that's a layout
issue, not a content issue.
< blockquote> springs to mind as well, but if the entirity of the
minutes as given to you is verbatim accounts of discussion, your
document would be nothing but blockquotes. If there are (as there
probably should be) summary notes of motions, votes, etc, then <
blockquote> sections under a "discussion" heading seems to make the most
logical sense to me.
Michael
From: Michael Stenitzer
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2005 3:20AM
Subject: Re: Semantic structure of 'Minutes of a Meeting'
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> <h3>Speaker 1:</h3> <blockquote>"blah blah blah"</blockquote>
>
> <h3>Speaker 2:</h3> <blockquote>"more mumble here"</blockquote>
>
> <h3>Speaker 1:</h3> <blockquote>"Response, etc."</blockquote>
>
> <h3>Speaker 3:</h3> <blockquote>"interjection here"</blockquote>
>
improvement:
<h3><cite>Speaker 1</cite>:</h3> <blockquote>"Response, etc."</blockquote>
read more at tantek's presentation:
http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/03/elementsofxhtml/
regards/michael
--
Michael Stenitzer | WIENFLUSS information.design.solutions
www.wienfluss.net | linke wienzeile 178 / 3 / 142 | wien AT
fon ++43 650 wfluss 0 | fax ++43 1 4854200 31
From: L
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2005 4:00AM
Subject: RE: Semantic structure of 'Minutes of a Meeting'
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John Foliot - Wats wrote:
"Here's a question for the list. I've been handed a document that is essentially the hand recorded minutes of a meeting. As presented, it takes the format of:
Speaker 1: "blah blah blah"
Speaker 2: "more mumble here"
Speaker 1: "Response, etc."
Speaker 3: "interjection here"
...etc.
I am struggling over how I would mark this up semantically. To my thinking I have a few choices:
<SNIPPED>
Thoughts and suggestions appreciated. Short time-lines..."
Depending on the text appended to each speaker, would a combination of headings and blockquotes work?
Assuming that you've employed some combination of h1 and h2 earlier in the document, perhaps something like:
<h3>Speaker 1:</h3> <blockquote>"blah blah blah"</blockquote>
<h3>Speaker 2:</h3> <blockquote>"more mumble here"</blockquote>
<h3>Speaker 1:</h3> <blockquote>"Response, etc."</blockquote>
<h3>Speaker 3:</h3> <blockquote>"interjection here"</blockquote>
Higher level headings could then be used to indicate the agenda headings or threads of conversation within the meeting.
L
From: Gez Lemon
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2005 6:00AM
Subject: Re: Semantic structure of 'Minutes of a Meeting'
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On 01/09/05, Michael Stenitzer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > <h3>Speaker 1:</h3> <blockquote>"blah blah blah"</blockquote>
> >
> > <h3>Speaker 2:</h3> <blockquote>"more mumble here"</blockquote>
> >
> > <h3>Speaker 1:</h3> <blockquote>"Response, etc."</blockquote>
> >
> > <h3>Speaker 3:</h3> <blockquote>"interjection here"</blockquote>
> >
>
> improvement:
> <h3><cite>Speaker 1</cite>:</h3> <blockquote>"Response, etc."</blockquote>
The blockquote element also requires container elements such as
paragraphs, lists, etc, as it shouldn't contain plain text.
Headings before each entry is an interesting approach. I can see that
it could be valuable to some assistive technologies, as it would
provide a convenient means of navigating the document in headings
mode, but wonder about its semantic value. In a meeting where people
make short salient points in succession, you could end up with a
document overloaded with headings. It would also result in several
headings with the same text (as it's the speakers name), which whilst
not illegal, I wouldn't feel comfortable with.
Personally, I would have chosen a definition list, with just the
agenda items marked up as headings. The definition list would provide
the semantic association between the speaker and what they said, but
also affords the option of noting what they did as well as what they
said:
<h2 id="accesskeys">Access Keys</h2>
<dl>
<dt><cite>John Foliot</cite></dt>
<dd>John demonstrates accesskey collisions.</dd>
<dd><q>One of the problems ...</q></dd>
<dd><q>Another issue is ....</q></dd>
<dd>John demonstrates the other issue with consequence ...</dd>
<dt><cite>Grant Broome</cite></dt>
<dd><q>There are circumstances where ...</q></dd>
<dd><q>And so on ...</q></dd>
</dl>
<h2 id="nextitem">Next Item</h2>
<dl>
....
</dl>
Semantically, I would have thought that had more meaning that multiple
repeated headings. It would be interesting to know whether current
assistive technology handles definition lists correctly, and whether
they allow definition lists to be navigated easily.
Best regards,
Gez
--
_____________________________
Supplement your vitamins
http://juicystudio.com
From: L
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2005 8:00AM
Subject: RE: Semantic structure of 'Minutes of a Meeting'
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Jez Lemon wrote:
"Personally, I would have chosen a definition list, with just the agenda items marked up as headings. The definition list would provide the semantic association between the speaker and what they said, but also affords the option of noting what they did as well as what they
said:
<SNIPPED>
Semantically, I would have thought that had more meaning that multiple repeated headings. It would be interesting to know whether current assistive technology handles definition lists correctly, and whether they allow definition lists to be navigated easily."
For the screen reader faction of assistive technologies, I can't locate much information on Window Eyes historically, but know that version 5.0 supports definition lists and navigation through each list item of same.
Jaws has been capable of identifying definition lists, at least as far back as version 4.5. It does have distinct trouble navigating list items in such lists though. Jaws uses the quick navigation key I to move between list items, but up to and including version 6.2, this quick nav key fails to acknowledge definition list item pairs.
L