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Thread: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?

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From: Sinead Hogan
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2005 10:00AM
Subject: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
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Hello,

I'm developing e learning / assessment software using Flash. I'm having trouble with reading order for screen readers. The solution I'm currently working on is to change the 'standard' layout of the objects on screen so that they are read out in a more sensible order. However, this results in a less intuitive and somewhat ugly visual screen. Does this matter? I guess my question essentially comes down to uses of screen readers for users other than the blind.
If a screen reader is not in use when the page loads, the screen will default to the 'standard' layout.

Many thanks,

Sinead.




From: Sinead Hogan
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2005 10:40AM
Subject: RE: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
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Yes I have tried defining a tab order but its a bit of a nightmare for the particular app I'm working on. This problem has arisen with only one interaction type. Thankfully, the default tab/read order that Flash determines has worked very well for all of the other assessment/interaction types. I may eventually have to define the tab order and all that entails, but if this quick solution could work, it would be a lot easier.

Regarding your comment on keyboard users; The default tab order is turning out to be different from the default read order. The tab order when a screen reader is not active will remain in the main content swf, before moving up to the host swf. When a screen reader is active all elements are read out according to their screen layout regardless of which swf they're in. So for keyboard use - though not ideal - the default tab order works well enough.

Still hoping my quick fix will do... ?

Thanks again,
Sinead.




-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = on behalf of Andrew Kirkpatrick
Sent: Tue 25/10/2005 09:43
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Cc:
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?



Sinead,
Have you tried modifying the taborder? The reading order for screen readers is derived from the tab order, so if you set the taborder for different objects:

thisobject.tabIndex = 1;
tahtobject.tabIndex = 2;

you'll get the desired behavior without resorting to a separate version.

A keyboard-only user will not necessarily use a screen reader (most screen reader users are keyboard users, and most keyboard users are not screen reader users), but will certainly benefit from good tab order.

AWK




From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2005 11:20AM
Subject: RE: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
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Joshue,

> Again think twice before using "tabindex" - as it must be
> done correctly or it is counter productive.

I agree wholeheartedly with your advice in HTML, but not in Flash.
Flash tabindex and HTML tabindex are different things. The Flash
application reading order is controlled by the tabindex along with the
order of tabbable objects. In HTML the reading order is separate from
the tabindex, which creates the issue you're referring to.

AWK




From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2005 12:40PM
Subject: Re: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
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Sinead,

I don't wish to confuse you regarding Andrews advice for "tabindex" but
I would add a word of caution. We only recommend using "tabindex" for
form navigation, if at all. So be careful how you implement it if you do
use "tabindex". A screen reader user may navigate the page by using
headings (h1, h1 etc) so mark up your content correctly to facilitate
this. I feel this is a better approach. Also many screen reader users
actually bypass all this by extracting links from the page and navigate
by using them, or a combination of both headings and link extraction. So
give special attention to naming links well, especially when read out of
context.

Again think twice before using "tabindex" - as it must be done correctly
or it is counter productive.

Joshue O Connor

Web Accessibility Consultant

**Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)* *
National Council for the Blind of Ireland

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = +353 1 8821915



Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:

> Sinead,
> Have you tried modifying the taborder? The reading order for screen
> readers is derived from the tab order, so if you set the taborder for
> different objects:
>
> thisobject.tabIndex = 1;
> tahtobject.tabIndex = 2;
>
> you'll get the desired behavior without resorting to a separate version.
>
> A keyboard-only user will not necessarily use a screen reader (most
> screen reader users are keyboard users, and most keyboard users are
> not screen reader users), but will certainly benefit from good tab order.
>
> AWK
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>





From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2005 1:20PM
Subject: RE: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Sinead,
Have you tried modifying the taborder? The reading order for screen
readers is derived from the tab order, so if you set the taborder for
different objects:

thisobject.tabIndex = 1;
tahtobject.tabIndex = 2;

you'll get the desired behavior without resorting to a separate version.

A keyboard-only user will not necessarily use a screen reader (most
screen reader users are keyboard users, and most keyboard users are not
screen reader users), but will certainly benefit from good tab order.

AWK



From: Joshue O Connor
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2005 3:20PM
Subject: Re: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Andrew,

>Flash tabindex and HTML tabindex are different things. The Flash
>application reading order is controlled by the tabindex along with the
>order of tabbable objects.
>
I wasn't aware of that. That's a useful distinction for future reference.
I can see then how "Flash tabindex" could be useful in the creation of
accessible SWF's where the developer can guide the user through their
interface.

In my last post I was referring to awful "tabbing loops" that I have
come across, due to incorrect use of tabindex in HTML.

Thanks for that

Josh


Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:

>Joshue,
>
>
>
>>Again think twice before using "tabindex" - as it must be
>>done correctly or it is counter productive.
>>
>>
>
>I agree wholeheartedly with your advice in HTML, but not in Flash.
>Flash tabindex and HTML tabindex are different things. The Flash
>application reading order is controlled by the tabindex along with the
>order of tabbable objects. In HTML the reading order is separate from
>the tabindex, which creates the issue you're referring to.
>
>AWK
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Tue, Oct 25 2005 4:40PM
Subject: RE: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Regarding your comment on keyboard users; The default tab order
is turning out to be different from the default read order. The tab
order when a screen reader is not active will remain in the main content
swf, before moving up to the host swf. When a screen reader is active
all elements are read out according to their screen layout regardless of
which swf they're in. So for keyboard use - though not ideal - the
default tab order works well enough.

The reason the screen reader tab order is different is because you
haven't set the tabindex for all objects.

In player 8 there is a change that makes it possible to set the tab
order for a subset of the tabbable objects, so you could just set a tab
order for the main content swf and let the host swf fall into place.


Still hoping my quick fix will do... ?

I have reservations about it. Someone using a screen reader and
magnifier together will notice the difference.

AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Principal Accessibility Engineer, Macromedia
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =





From: Sinead Hogan
Date: Mon, Nov 07 2005 12:29PM
Subject: RE: Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?
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Since I was in the unfortunate position of having to retro-fit accessibility in this case, I persevered without defining the tab order with actionscript. The best solution for me in the end was to make duplicates of the objects on screen, set their alpha to 0 (making them invisible), and place them on screen in positions that would read out sensibly using Flash's default read ordering. Then I hid their duplicate visible objects on screen from screen readers. This was pretty flexible and simple. The only disadvantage I found was that in order to alpha out text, I needed to embed a font, which added to the file size.
Well you can see how successful you think this attempt turned out. I just posted a list of different assessment types to the list. The two relevant to this discussion are:
http://www.officecompetition.com/feedback/MatchListsText.html - where I changed the visible layout when a screen reader is detected, and
http://www.officecompetition.com/feedback/MatchListsImages.html - where I made the invisible duplicates and moved them around.

Grateful for any feedback,
Sinead.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = on behalf of Andrew Kirkpatrick
Sent: Tue 25/10/2005 11:17
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Cc:
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Does visual layout matter for screen reader users?



Regarding your comment on keyboard users; The default tab order
is turning out to be different from the default read order. The tab
order when a screen reader is not active will remain in the main content
swf, before moving up to the host swf. When a screen reader is active
all elements are read out according to their screen layout regardless of
which swf they're in. So for keyboard use - though not ideal - the
default tab order works well enough.

The reason the screen reader tab order is different is because you
haven't set the tabindex for all objects.

In player 8 there is a change that makes it possible to set the tab
order for a subset of the tabbable objects, so you could just set a tab
order for the main content swf and let the host swf fall into place.


Still hoping my quick fix will do... ?

I have reservations about it. Someone using a screen reader and
magnifier together will notice the difference.

AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Principal Accessibility Engineer, Macromedia
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =