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Thread: Accessibility issues and AJAX

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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 7:40AM
Subject: Accessibility issues and AJAX
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At the risk of sounding a bit ignorant, does anyone have any thoughts or
observations on accessibility issues and AJAX?

There is a pretty good article about it at:
http://www.forbes.com/2005/11/22/microsoft-google-yahoo-cx_tt_1123straightup
.html?partner=smallbusiness_newsletter

Sincerely,

Mike Burks





From: Tim Beadle
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 8:20AM
Subject: Re: Accessibility issues and AJAX
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On 30/11/05, Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> How would AJAX function with scripting disabled?

Ajax itself wouldn't, as it uses JavaScript. However, the application
should still function without JavaScript enabled, if it's done right.
Unfortunately a lot of Ajax apps are done wrong, their authors
ignoring progressive enhancement principles in the rush to be the
latest kewl Web 2.0 app.

Tim




From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 9:40AM
Subject: RE: Accessibility issues and AJAX
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Tim,

We have seen that rush before...yes?

Sincerely,

Mike Burks

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tim Beadle
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:59 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibility issues and AJAX

On 30/11/05, Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> How would AJAX function with scripting disabled?

Ajax itself wouldn't, as it uses JavaScript. However, the application
should still function without JavaScript enabled, if it's done right.
Unfortunately a lot of Ajax apps are done wrong, their authors
ignoring progressive enhancement principles in the rush to be the
latest kewl Web 2.0 app.

Tim








From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 11:40AM
Subject: RE: Accessibility issues and AJAX
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Yes.

I figure that it is moving closer to the analogy of command-line vs. GUI
applications such as the example on Linux of applications that run in a
shell _AND_ GUI. I make that analogy because of the issue with scripting
and Section 508 requirements that applications still function without
scripting. How would AJAX function with scripting disabled?

Regards,


Norman

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
Burks
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:08 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessibility issues and AJAX


At the risk of sounding a bit ignorant, does anyone have any thoughts or
observations on accessibility issues and AJAX?

There is a pretty good article about it at:
http://www.forbes.com/2005/11/22/microsoft-google-yahoo-cx_tt_1123straig
htup
.html?partner=smallbusiness_newsletter

Sincerely,

Mike Burks








From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 12:20PM
Subject: RE: Accessibility issues and AJAX
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Norman,

That is a great question. One of my concerns is this seems to be catching
on, and I have not seem much about it, and how to make it accessible.
Excellent things can be done with this, and as it is not really new
technology, but mostly a combination of existing technologies, I would think
there would be some things that would help to make some of the things it
does accessible. Hopefully WebAIM is looking at this and will come up with
something like the terrific paper they produced on JavaScript!

Disabling the scripting is not just an accessiblity issue, but these days it
is also a security issue to prevent things like Phishing...

Sincerely,

Mike Burks

-----Original Message-----
From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:46 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Accessibility issues and AJAX

Yes.

I figure that it is moving closer to the analogy of command-line vs. GUI
applications such as the example on Linux of applications that run in a
shell _AND_ GUI. I make that analogy because of the issue with scripting
and Section 508 requirements that applications still function without
scripting. How would AJAX function with scripting disabled?

Regards,


Norman

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
Burks
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:08 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessibility issues and AJAX


At the risk of sounding a bit ignorant, does anyone have any thoughts or
observations on accessibility issues and AJAX?

There is a pretty good article about it at:
http://www.forbes.com/2005/11/22/microsoft-google-yahoo-cx_tt_1123straig
htup
.html?partner=smallbusiness_newsletter

Sincerely,

Mike Burks









From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 1:40PM
Subject: RE: Accessibility issues and AJAX
← Previous message | Next message →

> "(l) When pages utilize scripting languages to display
> content, or to create interface elements, the information
> provided by the script shall be identified with functional
> text that can be read by assistive technology."
>
> The key phrase there IMHO is "or to create interface
> elements". We feel that script-only links comprise interface
> elements, and there should, at minimum be equivalent paths to
> the same linked pages if scripting is off. Perhaps one can
> view the strict language of 508 in a limited way as to not
> require this, but it feels wrong and not in the spirit of
> accessibility.

508 isn't about the spirit of accessibility. If you are concerned with
the spirit of accessibility you probably don't need to worry too much
about 508 since you're likely to be already attending to access issues.

If you create an interface element with a script, that's perfectly OK
under 508 so long as the information created by the script is accessible
to assistive technologies. You won't find anything in 508 that says that
it needs to work when scipts are disabled...

AWK




From: ben morrison
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 2:20PM
Subject: Re: Accessibility issues and AJAX
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On 11/30/05, Michael R. Burks < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> At the risk of sounding a bit ignorant, does anyone have any thoughts or
> observations on accessibility issues and AJAX?

A lot of people are currently researching this, here's a good pointer:

http://www.standards-schmandards.com/index.php?2005/03/01/16-ajax-and-accessibility

ben




From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 3:00PM
Subject: RE: Accessibility issues and AJAX
← Previous message | Next message →

Norman wrote:
> that analogy because of the issue with scripting and Section
> 508 requirements that applications still function without
> scripting. How would AJAX function with scripting disabled?

What section 508 requirement is that? Scripting is OK in 508, but it
must result in "functional text", unless you're reading things
differently than I do.

Heavyweight DOM scripting, as is common in AJAX, doesn't need to result
in inaccessible content, but often the events used are mouse-specific
and changes to the page are not always announced to users. The result
might be perfectly accessible new content on a page, but a screen reader
user may not know that the new content exists or even if the user knows
that it exists he probably doesn't know where to find it on the page.

Another difficulty often occurs when developers make things that look
like controls on a page, but the information needed by assistive
technologies is not present, and the accessibility and user experience
for disabled users suffers.

AWK




From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 4:20PM
Subject: RE: Accessibility issues and AJAX
← Previous message | Next message →

Andrew,

I was indirectly referencing 1194.22(l); "When pages utilize scripting
languages to display content, or to create interface elements, the
information provided by the script shall be identified with functional
text that can be read by assistive technology".

Although it isn't a 508 requirement that web based applications function
without scripting, in combination with section (d) "Documents shall be
organized so they are readable without requiring an associated style
sheet." I have found the lowest common denominator to be disable
scripting and see how the application degrades. Much of the application
information should be provided to the user. Not a perfect test, but one
I'm also partial to using when I have portables such as my cell phone
that don't do scripting!

Again, not a hard line on Section 508 but more in the spirit of
usability. I would further say that even if there isn't a specific
provision in the Section 508 accessibility standards, the _functional_
requirements still apply (1194.31
http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/standards.htm#Subpart_c) and we
should figure out how we can best support this technology with our
existing screen readers.

I also find the interplay of the specific web-based intranet and
internet information and applications standards being considered a
subset of software applications and operating systems standards
interesting. If this was a software application I would take exception
with 1194.21 (c) "A well-defined on-screen indication of the current
focus shall be provided that moves among interactive interface elements
as the input focus changes. The focus shall be programmatically exposed
so that assistive technology can track focus and focus changes." and a
few others as well.

Regards,


Norman Robinson


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andrew
Kirkpatrick
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:26 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Accessibility issues and AJAX


Norman wrote:
> that analogy because of the issue with scripting and Section
> 508 requirements that applications still function without
> scripting. How would AJAX function with scripting disabled?

What section 508 requirement is that? Scripting is OK in 508, but it
must result in "functional text", unless you're reading things
differently than I do.

Heavyweight DOM scripting, as is common in AJAX, doesn't need to result
in inaccessible content, but often the events used are mouse-specific
and changes to the page are not always announced to users. The result
might be perfectly accessible new content on a page, but a screen reader
user may not know that the new content exists or even if the user knows
that it exists he probably doesn't know where to find it on the page.

Another difficulty often occurs when developers make things that look
like controls on a page, but the information needed by assistive
technologies is not present, and the accessibility and user experience
for disabled users suffers.

AWK




From: Randy Pearson
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2005 5:40PM
Subject: RE: Accessibility issues and AJAX
← Previous message | No next message

AWK wrote:

>> that analogy because of the issue with scripting and Section
>> 508 requirements that applications still function without
>> scripting. How would AJAX function with scripting disabled?

> What section 508 requirement is that? Scripting is OK in 508, but it
> must result in "functional text", unless you're reading things
> differently than I do.

508 includes this:

"(l) When pages utilize scripting languages to display content, or to create
interface elements, the information provided by the script shall be
identified with functional text that can be read by assistive technology."

The key phrase there IMHO is "or to create interface elements". We feel that
script-only links comprise interface elements, and there should, at minimum
be equivalent paths to the same linked pages if scripting is off. Perhaps
one can view the strict language of 508 in a limited way as to not require
this, but it feels wrong and not in the spirit of accessibility.

-- Randy