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Thread: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 3:20AM
Subject: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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On 4/21/06, Tim Beadle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> You can use the <button> element instead of <input type="submit">,
> which allows you to target it in your stylesheet in a more reliable
> way. (Note that you could use input[type="submit"] { /* styles */ }
> but IE wouldn't recognize this syntax).
>
>
> It's fine to use <input type="submit" class="button" /> but I would
> suggest looking into the <button> approach. See here:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.5
>
Are there any downsides to using buttons - for some reason I have
avoided them and have always used type="submit"
ben
From: Patrick Lauke
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 4:10AM
Subject: RE: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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> ben morrison
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.5
> >
>
> Are there any downsides to using buttons - for some reason I have
> avoided them and have always used type="submit"
If I remember correctly, Netscape Nav 4.7 and before didn't understand
the button element.
Not sure about Safari, but any other modern browsers should be able to
deal with it correctly nowadays.
One thing I did find, though, is that it looks odd in Lynx. If, for instance,
you have a button of type="submit" containing a few paragraphs of text, Lynx
will first display "(Submit)", followed by the actual text of the button...
P
________________________________
Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
________________________________
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
________________________________
From: ben morrison
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 7:00AM
Subject: Re: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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On 4/21/06, Patrick Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > ben morrison
> > Are there any downsides to using buttons - for some reason I have
> > avoided them and have always used type="submit"
>
> If I remember correctly, Netscape Nav 4.7 and before didn't understand
> the button element.
>
> Not sure about Safari, but any other modern browsers should be able to
> deal with it correctly nowadays.
>
> One thing I did find, though, is that it looks odd in Lynx. If, for instance,
> you have a button of type="submit" containing a few paragraphs of text, Lynx
> will first display "(Submit)", followed by the actual text of the button...
Thanks for this.
Did u test a button with paragraphs of text as its content? i take it
Lynx places the (submit) before any information included in the
button.
ben
From: Tim Beadle
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 7:20AM
Subject: Re: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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On 21/04/06, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I tested a page with the following
>
> <button type="submit">
> <p>This is the button...</p>
> <p>...with some paragraphs</p>
> </button>
>
> Which is rendered in Lynx as
>
> (Submit)
> This is the button...
> ...with some paragraphs
>
> and the focus is on the (Submit)...so I'm wondering how users with a
> combination of Lynx + braille display (or similar AT) would experience
> this, as it's not obvious that the content of (which effectively acts as
> a label for) the button follows the (Submit).
Isn't that a case of "just because you *can* do something doesn't mean
you should"?
Tim
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 7:30AM
Subject: Re: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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Quoting ben morrison < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> Did u test a button with paragraphs of text as its content? i take it
> Lynx places the (submit) before any information included in the
> button.
I tested a page with the following
<button type="submit">
<p>This is the button...</p>
<p>...with some paragraphs</p>
</button>
Which is rendered in Lynx as
(Submit)
This is the button...
...with some paragraphs
and the focus is on the (Submit)...so I'm wondering how users with a
combination of Lynx + braille display (or similar AT) would experience
this, as it's not obvious that the content of (which effectively acts as
a label for) the button follows the (Submit).
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
___________
re
From: Kynn Bartlett
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 8:30AM
Subject: Re: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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On 4/21/06, Patrick Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Not sure about Safari, but any other modern browsers should be able to
> deal with it correctly nowadays.
Safari doesn't have any problem with <button>. (I know this, because
I just finished writing a new chapter on styling forms for Teach
Yourself CSS in 24 Hours, Second Edition.)
--Kynn
--
Kynn Bartlett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Writer, Web Developer, Photographer, Game Designer
Tucson, Arizona
http://kynn.com
From: Kynn Bartlett
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 8:40AM
Subject: Re: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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On 4/21/06, Tim Beadle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Isn't that a case of "just because you *can* do something doesn't mean
> you should"?
It seems to me that putting several paragraphs in a <button> isn't all
that useful, yeah. :)
--Kynn
--
Kynn Bartlett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Writer, Web Developer, Photographer, Game Designer
Tucson, Arizona
http://kynn.com
From: smithj7
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 5:40PM
Subject: RE: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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With the population that I serve the button element is a BAD idea. It
has caused problems for some of my users (work for Florida Blind
Services). So I learned to use input - submit.
While I still am a "baby when it comes to accessible coding using CSS,
xhtml, xml", I am "blessed" with a group of people that use assistive
technology for persons who are blind that let me know when something
doesn't work.
Problems may related to two things:
1. Lack of access for persons with disabilities to get the same ability
to upgrade accessibility technology
2. Learning curve of users
Lack of access:
For example, speech access companies have been doing a good job at
trying to keep up with the newer technology, but often my users cannot
afford to keep up with updating their speech technology. Unfortunately,
while sighted folks can just update their browers for free, many of my
users who have access technology on home computers or work for small
businesses would have to pay big bucks to get the same access to the
state of the art speech technology. But when it comes to the button
element it isn't just cost; one person who told me not to use the button
element is actually using the Beta version of JAWS. While he doesn't
understand html, he was a programmer before becoming our MIS manager.
He is a high end JAWS user. He has the best technology.
Learning curve:
We also must keep in mind the learning curve of a person using access
technology. The way a person who is blind that uses such technology, is
totally different than a sighted person does. They have learned to
navigate using stuff like "input". Agencies like ours don't keep
upgrading training. When we - tech folks - change the rules, it
inadvertently IMH because a usability issue because the folks won't
trained to adapt to the new technological changes.
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Fri, Apr 21 2006 6:00PM
Subject: Re: Buttons vs Submit WAS: Drop down list, css, and xhtml
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> While I still am a "baby when it comes to accessible coding using CSS,
> xhtml, xml", I am "blessed" with a group of people that use assistive
> technology for persons who are blind that let me know when something
> doesn't work.
Can you please contribute here _a lot_ with that kind of information?
We had and have a lot of problems with assumptions or passed-on myths,
and I am not excluding myself there. It is great to have someone
around who can prove or bust these myths. A shame the list has no WIKI
though.
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/