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Thread: Can you believe this?
Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)
From: pmr@bodley.ox.ac.uk
Date: Sat, Nov 18 2006 9:00AM
Subject: Can you believe this?
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I contacted the web team of our local village newsletter to point out that
it had scrolling text which a) was not accessible; and b) used the
proprietary IE <marquee> tag and therefore the text wasn't visible at all
to users of oter browsers. I thought that I was polite about it; I
thought that I was being helpful.
From: pmr@bodley.ox.ac.uk
Date: Sat, Nov 18 2006 9:10AM
Subject: Can you believe this? part 2!
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Oops... using webmail... forgot and used tab which sent the dratted thing!
Quick recap: local village site has scrolling text that used <marquee>
tag. I wrote (nicely I thought) to point out that it didnt work in non-IE
browsers and that the scrolling was also against accessibility guidelines.
Now on with the story...
I received the following reply from the web master:
"Whilst what you say is correct we will not change the site to work with
Firefox. Irrespective of W3 standards the de facto standard for web
design is Internet explorer and Firefox Opera etc are such a tiny minority
as to be irrelevant."
Aaaargh! I'm speechless. And cross! Not only does he dismiss Firefox
and other non-IE users; not only does he dismiss the W3C: he completely
*ignored* the accessibility issue! (He did concede another accessibility
point that his "click here" links needed changing... ).
OK: rant over. Thanks for listening.
Penny
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Sat, Nov 18 2006 9:20AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this?
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= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> I contacted the web team of our local village newsletter to point out that
> it had scrolling text which a) was not accessible; and b) used the
> proprietary IE <marquee> tag and therefore the text wasn't visible at all
> to users of oter browsers. I thought that I was polite about it; I
> thought that I was being helpful.
You missed out the second part which presumably goes along the lines of
"they told me to mind my own business, and that everybody uses IE anyway".
It's the usual story: you can take a horse to water...
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
___________
re
From: Rimantas Liubertas
Date: Sat, Nov 18 2006 9:30AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this?
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> b) used the
> proprietary IE <marquee> tag and therefore the text wasn't visible at all
> to users of oter browsers.
The funny thing is that <marguee> despite being proprietary (and
avoidable) ir pretty
much visible and even works in other browsers (at least Gecko based and Opera).
Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Mon, Nov 20 2006 7:20AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
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> Aaaargh! I'm speechless. And cross! Not only does he
> dismiss Firefox and other non-IE users; not only does he
> dismiss the W3C: he completely
> *ignored* the accessibility issue!
Yep. Web development is a lot like software development. The industry is
rife with incompetant developers. Sadly, a lot of customers tolerate it.
You might want to mention to him that if his own site stats show an
'insignificant' amount of Firefox users, it's quite possible it's due to
the fact that their inability to care about it has driven all the
Firefox users away.
Web stats, unfortunately, are used often as self-fulfilling
prophecies...only 5% of our visitors use FF? Well, let's not
bother.--Oh, your site doesn't work in Firefox? I guess I won't bother
visiting.--Oh! Now our site only has 2% FF users...see! We were right!
-Darrel
From: Gareth Dart
Date: Mon, Nov 20 2006 7:30AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
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It's probably worthwhile pointing out to them that as owners of a non-DDA compliant website, they are opening themselves to possible legal action. The village council or whoever is holding the purse strings ought to care about that, even if the developer doesn't. Is there not also a village rag to whom a sternly worded letter may be addressed? Disability discrimination is _NOT_ irrelevant.
The reply is also just plain rude, btw.
In the meantime, there's always IE Tab -> https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1419/
G
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Saturday 18 November 2006 16:06
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
Oops... using webmail... forgot and used tab which sent the dratted thing!
Quick recap: local village site has scrolling text that used <marquee>
tag. I wrote (nicely I thought) to point out that it didnt work in non-IE
browsers and that the scrolling was also against accessibility guidelines.
Now on with the story...
I received the following reply from the web master:
"Whilst what you say is correct we will not change the site to work with
Firefox. Irrespective of W3 standards the de facto standard for web
design is Internet explorer and Firefox Opera etc are such a tiny minority
as to be irrelevant."
Aaaargh! I'm speechless. And cross! Not only does he dismiss Firefox
and other non-IE users; not only does he dismiss the W3C: he completely
*ignored* the accessibility issue! (He did concede another accessibility
point that his "click here" links needed changing... ).
OK: rant over. Thanks for listening.
Penny
_______________
This incoming email was virus scanned for HESA by MessageLabs.
_______________
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Mon, Nov 20 2006 7:40AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
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> Sounds a lot link "We do not need any ramps, no people in
> wheel chairs come in here" or "We do not need any TTY's no
> deaf people call us"...
In the podunk town I grew up in, there were groups of people that had
tried for decades to get funding for a new school.
One of the not-so-uncommon replies to this (I'm not kidding) was "Why do
we need to build a swimming pool at the new school? We don't have a swim
team."
For a lot of people, that logic makes perfect sense. ;o)
-Darrel
From: Gareth Dart
Date: Mon, Nov 20 2006 7:50AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
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There is indeed - The Disability Discrimination Act. Unfortunately, there has not yet been a major test case based on the provisions of the Act, and the Act itself is somewhat hazy on the specifics.
G
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of Michael R.
Burks
Sent: Monday 20 November 2006 14:29
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
Sounds a lot link "We do not need any ramps, no people in wheel chairs come
in here" or "We do not need any TTY's no deaf people call us"...
Is there not a law in the UK about this?
Mike Burks
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Austin, Darrel
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:17 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
> Aaaargh! I'm speechless. And cross! Not only does he
> dismiss Firefox and other non-IE users; not only does he
> dismiss the W3C: he completely
> *ignored* the accessibility issue!
Yep. Web development is a lot like software development. The industry is
rife with incompetant developers. Sadly, a lot of customers tolerate it.
You might want to mention to him that if his own site stats show an
'insignificant' amount of Firefox users, it's quite possible it's due to
the fact that their inability to care about it has driven all the
Firefox users away.
Web stats, unfortunately, are used often as self-fulfilling
prophecies...only 5% of our visitors use FF? Well, let's not
bother.--Oh, your site doesn't work in Firefox? I guess I won't bother
visiting.--Oh! Now our site only has 2% FF users...see! We were right!
-Darrel
_______________
This incoming email was virus scanned for HESA by MessageLabs.
_______________
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Mon, Nov 20 2006 8:00AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
← Previous message | Next message →
Sounds a lot link "We do not need any ramps, no people in wheel chairs come
in here" or "We do not need any TTY's no deaf people call us"...
Is there not a law in the UK about this?
Mike Burks
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Austin, Darrel
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:17 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
> Aaaargh! I'm speechless. And cross! Not only does he
> dismiss Firefox and other non-IE users; not only does he
> dismiss the W3C: he completely
> *ignored* the accessibility issue!
Yep. Web development is a lot like software development. The industry is
rife with incompetant developers. Sadly, a lot of customers tolerate it.
You might want to mention to him that if his own site stats show an
'insignificant' amount of Firefox users, it's quite possible it's due to
the fact that their inability to care about it has driven all the
Firefox users away.
Web stats, unfortunately, are used often as self-fulfilling
prophecies...only 5% of our visitors use FF? Well, let's not
bother.--Oh, your site doesn't work in Firefox? I guess I won't bother
visiting.--Oh! Now our site only has 2% FF users...see! We were right!
-Darrel
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Mon, Nov 20 2006 8:10AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
← Previous message | Next message →
I assume the term "logic" is in quotes! ROTFL
It is pretty bizarre that is for sure!
Mike Burks
919 870 8788 - Office
703-254-3881 - Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Austin, Darrel
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:32 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
> Sounds a lot link "We do not need any ramps, no people in
> wheel chairs come in here" or "We do not need any TTY's no
> deaf people call us"...
In the podunk town I grew up in, there were groups of people that had
tried for decades to get funding for a new school.
One of the not-so-uncommon replies to this (I'm not kidding) was "Why do
we need to build a swimming pool at the new school? We don't have a swim
team."
For a lot of people, that logic makes perfect sense. ;o)
-Darrel
From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Mon, Nov 20 2006 8:30AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
← Previous message | Next message →
As was suggested earlier maybe there is a local newspaper you can get on
your side. There is little or no appeal on the judgments made in the court
of public opinion...
Mike Burks
919 870 8788 - Office
703-254-3881 - Cell
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gareth Dart
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
There is indeed - The Disability Discrimination Act. Unfortunately, there
has not yet been a major test case based on the provisions of the Act, and
the Act itself is somewhat hazy on the specifics.
G
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]On Behalf Of Michael R.
Burks
Sent: Monday 20 November 2006 14:29
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
Sounds a lot link "We do not need any ramps, no people in wheel chairs come
in here" or "We do not need any TTY's no deaf people call us"...
Is there not a law in the UK about this?
Mike Burks
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Austin, Darrel
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:17 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Can you believe this? part 2!
> Aaaargh! I'm speechless. And cross! Not only does he
> dismiss Firefox and other non-IE users; not only does he
> dismiss the W3C: he completely
> *ignored* the accessibility issue!
Yep. Web development is a lot like software development. The industry is
rife with incompetant developers. Sadly, a lot of customers tolerate it.
You might want to mention to him that if his own site stats show an
'insignificant' amount of Firefox users, it's quite possible it's due to
the fact that their inability to care about it has driven all the
Firefox users away.
Web stats, unfortunately, are used often as self-fulfilling
prophecies...only 5% of our visitors use FF? Well, let's not
bother.--Oh, your site doesn't work in Firefox? I guess I won't bother
visiting.--Oh! Now our site only has 2% FF users...see! We were right!
-Darrel
_______________
This incoming email was virus scanned for HESA by MessageLabs.
_______________
From: Penny Roberts
Date: Tue, Nov 21 2006 3:20AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
← Previous message | Next message →
Gareth Dart wrote:
> It's probably worthwhile pointing out to them that as owners of a
> non-DDA compliant website, they are opening themselves to possible
> legal action.
Tried that! The answer was that removing the scrolling text for the
benefit of a minority would be like removing all the stairs to put in
wheelchair ramps. I haven't written back yet but I intend to point out
that the trick is to provide both stairs *and* access ramps.
The village council or whoever is holding the purse
> strings ought to care about that, even if the developer doesn't.
I sent the original e-mail to the editorial team rather than the
developer himself in the hope that they might have something to say
about it; but either they didn't see the e-mail or they really don't
have any idea.
> there not also a village rag to whom a sternly worded letter may be
> addressed? Disability discrimination is _NOT_ irrelevant.
There is a village newsletter and they are pushing the website so it
might be worth writing (of course there is no guarantee they will
publish the letter).
> The reply is also just plain rude, btw.
I thought so. When I replied to it I had to rewrite several times to
calm down from "your attitude is old fashioned, arrogant and
blinkered..." to "you must agree that a village website should be
accessible to all members of the village regardless of ability or
disability?" :-)
Penny
From: Penny Roberts
Date: Tue, Nov 21 2006 3:40AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
← Previous message | Next message →
Gareth Dart wrote:
> There is indeed - The Disability Discrimination Act. Unfortunately,
> there has not yet been a major test case based on the provisions of
> the Act, and the Act itself is somewhat hazy on the specifics.
Yes, it's really annoying. I've been trawling sites like the Disability
Rights Commission in the hope of finding something short and to the
point that I can quote to him but there just isn't anything specific
enough.
Thank goodness for the RNIB's Web Access Centre: at least I was able to
quote from there "(WCAG) are generally accepted as the definitive
guidelines on web accessibility and accessible design techniques" to
counter his dismissal of W3C standards.
Penny
From: Penny Roberts
Date: Tue, Nov 21 2006 4:10AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this?
← Previous message | Next message →
Rimantas Liubertas wrote:
>> b) used the
>> proprietary IE <marquee> tag and therefore the text wasn't visible at all
>> to users of oter browsers.
>
> The funny thing is that <marguee> despite being proprietary (and
> avoidable) ir pretty
> much visible and even works in other browsers (at least Gecko based and Opera).
Here's a strange thing: it didn't work for me in Firefox. Works for
other people. Why not for me? I'd got JavaScript disabled! But there
is no JavaScript in that code, only <marquee>.
I didn't know that disabling JavaScript stops <marquee> from working
but I've just written a test page and by golly it does!
Is this something that everyone else knew about all along?
Penny
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Wed, Nov 22 2006 7:50AM
Subject: Re: Can you believe this? part 2!
← Previous message | No next message
> The answer was that removing the scrolling text
> for the benefit of a minority would be like removing all the
> stairs to put in wheelchair ramps.
The answer to that is: exactly! That's a good thing!
Stairs are fine, but 'wheelchair ramps' are so much more. Obviously,
those in wheelchairs like them. As do Mom's and Dad's with
strollers...Teens with inline skates...elderly with canes and
walkers...skaterboarders...delivery folks with two-wheeled carts...bike
commuters with their 12-speeds...the moving crew...
Physical analogies to web sites don't usually hold much weight, but I
love the ramp analogy. It's the perfect example of how the mindset of
accomodating 'the minority' is actually accomodating the majority.
-Darrel