E-mail List Archives
Thread: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)
From: Despain, Dallas
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 8:20AM
Subject: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
No previous message | Next message →
Hi,
My company develops web self service websites and we are working to make our pages more accessible.
In our latest version, we are using more "web 2.0" technologies and it looks like we're running into a bit of a barrier. One example is our dialogs and alerts which, instead of using traditional window.open and window.alert methods, use div overlays styled to look like dialogs and alerts.
If you'd like to see an example try the
"Email this page" functionality (dialog for gathering emails - you can send one to yourself. then after it's sent there is an alert, which JAWS doesn't read at all) here:
http://canoncanada.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5949
I've added aria to the controls, and my tests in FF3 and IE8 are positive. The dialgos sound like dialgos, and the alerts sound like alerts. But when will we be able to release such technology with confidence that users will reap the benefits? We're planning on releasing in November. It sounds like IE8 will be out by then, but will many people be using it? Since the accessibility benefits of ARIA are so revolutionary, do we expect the adoption rate to be high? WAI-ARIA is in last call working draft, so we don't know how long that will take to finalize, but there seems to be good support for major browsers and major screen readers. The question is will it be soon enough?
Thanks,
Dallas
Dallas Despain | RightNow Technologies | Developer | 406-556-3454 | Salt Lake City, UT
From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 8:30AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Despain, Dallas wrote:
> But when will we be able to release such technology with confidence that users will reap the benefits?
Now! You lose nothing by implementing it now. If site visitors are
using an older screen reader or browser that does not utilize ARIA,
they don't get the enhanced accessibility. While you should do what
you can to make it accessible without ARIA, if you implement ARIA you
can only make things better for those that have compatible
technologies.
Based on our screen reader survey results, it appears that most screen
reader users have relatively up-to-date browsers and screen readers.
I'd say the vast majority of them have ARIA compatible user agents
now. An IE8 release with proper ARIA support will only increase
adoption.
Jared Smith
WebAIM
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 8:40AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Now. If nobody does it browser vendors will never bother. We have to
break the chicken and egg cycle.
The more important question is when will companies update their
infrastructure when new browsers come out. The big obstacle to *any*
innovation in the web right now is IE6 and the companies that don't
upgrade because they painted themselves in a corner with really
shortsighted development five years ago.
From: Peter Krantz
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 8:50AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 16:19, Despain, Dallas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> The question is will it be soon enough?
Tool-makers (of e.g. screen readers and browsers) need pressure from
their customers to adopt new standards. If more sites use WAI-ARIA
adoption rates will increase. By being an early adopter you are
contributing to making the web and assistive devices better so I say
go for it!
Peter Krantz
www.standards-schmandards.com
From: Al Sparber
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 11:25AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Jared Smith wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Despain, Dallas wrote:
>> But when will we be able to release such technology with confidence
>> that users will reap the benefits?
>
> Now! You lose nothing by implementing it now. If site visitors are
> using an older screen reader or browser that does not utilize ARIA,
> they don't get the enhanced accessibility. While you should do what
> you can to make it accessible without ARIA, if you implement ARIA you
> can only make things better for those that have compatible
> technologies.
Hi Jared,
I have been testing various aria techniques, as well as online test cases,
in Jaws 10 with very mixed results. Granted, I am not blind, but trying to
leave Jaws to its own devices (and default settings) the results do not seem
very good. Consider this example page in Firefox 3 using Jaws 10:
http://codetalks.org/source/widgets/tabpanel/tabpanel1.html
I find myself "trapped" in the tab widget and unable to intuitively get to
the content that comes after it. Moreover, if the tab panel contents were
simply text content, instead of form controls, Jaws will not read it on its
own.
And of course, it's pretty much unusable in IE7.
I know far less about Jaws than you do, so perhaps I'm missing something? Is
there another way to approach the testing?
> Based on our screen reader survey results, it appears that most screen
> reader users have relatively up-to-date browsers and screen readers.
> I'd say the vast majority of them have ARIA compatible user agents
> now. An IE8 release with proper ARIA support will only increase
> adoption.
Do you think that in the real world, the majority of Jaws (or Window Eyes)
users are running Firefox?
It would seem to me that ARIA is being used by Ajax developers to mitigate
some accessibility questions, while leaving many more wide open - such as
sighted users with script disabled, which might number higher than blind
users, when the real need is for a solution to semantically correct and
valid client-side widgets that utilize display: none. For that, there seems
no clearer solution than Eric Meyer's "plea" from a few years ago:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/06/27/dont-read-speak/
That approach would, in my opinion, solve everything and leave Ajax
developers to come up with a logical solution for their widgets, which have
far more serious accessibility limitations - going far beyond the realm of
blindness.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
From: Al Sparber
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 11:30AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Christian Heilmann wrote:
> Now. If nobody does it browser vendors will never bother. We have to
> break the chicken and egg cycle.
>
> The more important question is when will companies update their
> infrastructure when new browsers come out. The big obstacle to *any*
> innovation in the web right now is IE6 and the companies that don't
> upgrade because they painted themselves in a corner with really
> shortsighted development five years ago.
Good point. But with respect to ARIA, IE7 is an equally daunting roadblock
and one that will likely not be cleared for several years.
From: Despain, Dallas
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 11:35AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks everyone including Jared, Christian and Peter for the encouragement. There's an exciting time coming for accessibility. Now I need to present my findings to management and convince them that it's best to start implementing now. The question they will ask is will it help us certify compliant? That's where I'm less sure. In the real world can companies trust that disabled users are able to access content? I hope so. In the end, our only other choice besides implementing aria is going back to controls that aren't nearly as rich which isn't really an option if we want to move forward is it?
Dallas Despain | RightNow Technologies | Developer | 406-556-3454 | Salt Lake City, UT
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Peter Krantz
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:50 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 16:19, Despain, Dallas < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> The question is will it be soon enough?
Tool-makers (of e.g. screen readers and browsers) need pressure from
their customers to adopt new standards. If more sites use WAI-ARIA
adoption rates will increase. By being an early adopter you are
contributing to making the web and assistive devices better so I say
go for it!
Peter Krantz
www.standards-schmandards.com
From: Despain, Dallas
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 11:40AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Al,
How are you going to implement rich desktop-type controls without aria? Using display:none? I don't think that will get you very far withsomething simple like an alert dialog not to speak of something complicated like a treeview.
I also don't buy that the number of users with scripting off outnumbers the number of blind users.
Dallas Despain | RightNow Technologies | Developer | 406-556-3454 | Salt Lake City, UT
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:19 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
Jared Smith wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Despain, Dallas wrote:
>> But when will we be able to release such technology with confidence
>> that users will reap the benefits?
>
> Now! You lose nothing by implementing it now. If site visitors are
> using an older screen reader or browser that does not utilize ARIA,
> they don't get the enhanced accessibility. While you should do what
> you can to make it accessible without ARIA, if you implement ARIA you
> can only make things better for those that have compatible
> technologies.
Hi Jared,
I have been testing various aria techniques, as well as online test cases,
in Jaws 10 with very mixed results. Granted, I am not blind, but trying to
leave Jaws to its own devices (and default settings) the results do not seem
very good. Consider this example page in Firefox 3 using Jaws 10:
http://codetalks.org/source/widgets/tabpanel/tabpanel1.html
I find myself "trapped" in the tab widget and unable to intuitively get to
the content that comes after it. Moreover, if the tab panel contents were
simply text content, instead of form controls, Jaws will not read it on its
own.
And of course, it's pretty much unusable in IE7.
I know far less about Jaws than you do, so perhaps I'm missing something? Is
there another way to approach the testing?
> Based on our screen reader survey results, it appears that most screen
> reader users have relatively up-to-date browsers and screen readers.
> I'd say the vast majority of them have ARIA compatible user agents
> now. An IE8 release with proper ARIA support will only increase
> adoption.
Do you think that in the real world, the majority of Jaws (or Window Eyes)
users are running Firefox?
It would seem to me that ARIA is being used by Ajax developers to mitigate
some accessibility questions, while leaving many more wide open - such as
sighted users with script disabled, which might number higher than blind
users, when the real need is for a solution to semantically correct and
valid client-side widgets that utilize display: none. For that, there seems
no clearer solution than Eric Meyer's "plea" from a few years ago:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/06/27/dont-read-speak/
That approach would, in my opinion, solve everything and leave Ajax
developers to come up with a logical solution for their widgets, which have
far more serious accessibility limitations - going far beyond the realm of
blindness.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
From: Al Sparber
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 11:55AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Despain, Dallas wrote:
> Al,
>
> How are you going to implement rich desktop-type controls without
> aria? Using display:none? I don't think that will get you very far
> withsomething simple like an alert dialog not to speak of something
> complicated like a treeview.
>
>
> I also don't buy that the number of users with scripting off
> outnumbers the number of blind users.
Hi Dallas,
I wasn't trying to be argumentative or challenging. Sorry if it came off
that way :-) I am deeply concerned about accessibility. Rich desktop
controls are one thing and I agree they need to be accessible. Personally,
that's not what I do. As far as Ajax goes, I think any implementation cannot
be deemed accessible unless it is accessible not just to blind users, but to
motor-impaired users, and to any user that has script disabled. I certainly
don't know if there are actually more surfers running with script disabled
than there are blind surfers, though it might at the least be pretty close -
and it certainly must be a key issue in any accessibility discussion.
As for display: none, ARIA is being touted as a potential solution for it,
regardless of whether the deployment is Ajax or non-Ajax DOM scripting, and
I'm not clear (based on my testing) if ARIA is a viable solution for today.
I want to learn - and I want someone to show me how deploying ARIA today
will make a widget (be it Ajax or not) accessible today. If there is a
solution I certainly don't want to fight it.
From: Randall Pope
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 3:05PM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
In regards to the percent of web surfers using JavaScript, I dug up a user
statistic report at http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp.
Take care.
With Warm Regards,
Randall "Randy" Pope
American Association of the Deaf-Blind
Website: http://www.aadb.org
301 495-4402 VP/TTY
301 495-4403 Voice
301 495-4404 Fax
AIM: RandyAADB
Want to keep up with the latest news in the Deaf-Blind Community? Consider
subscribing to the monthly newsletter, "AADB Today" at http://aadb.org. It's
free and AADB membership is not required.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Despain, Dallas
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:37 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
Al,
How are you going to implement rich desktop-type controls without aria?
Using display:none? I don't think that will get you very far withsomething
simple like an alert dialog not to speak of something complicated like a
treeview.
I also don't buy that the number of users with scripting off outnumbers the
number of blind users.
Dallas Despain | RightNow Technologies | Developer | 406-556-3454 | Salt
Lake City, UT
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:19 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
Jared Smith wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Despain, Dallas wrote:
>> But when will we be able to release such technology with confidence
>> that users will reap the benefits?
>
> Now! You lose nothing by implementing it now. If site visitors are
> using an older screen reader or browser that does not utilize ARIA,
> they don't get the enhanced accessibility. While you should do what
> you can to make it accessible without ARIA, if you implement ARIA you
> can only make things better for those that have compatible
> technologies.
Hi Jared,
I have been testing various aria techniques, as well as online test cases,
in Jaws 10 with very mixed results. Granted, I am not blind, but trying to
leave Jaws to its own devices (and default settings) the results do not seem
very good. Consider this example page in Firefox 3 using Jaws 10:
http://codetalks.org/source/widgets/tabpanel/tabpanel1.html
I find myself "trapped" in the tab widget and unable to intuitively get to
the content that comes after it. Moreover, if the tab panel contents were
simply text content, instead of form controls, Jaws will not read it on its
own.
And of course, it's pretty much unusable in IE7.
I know far less about Jaws than you do, so perhaps I'm missing something? Is
there another way to approach the testing?
> Based on our screen reader survey results, it appears that most screen
> reader users have relatively up-to-date browsers and screen readers.
> I'd say the vast majority of them have ARIA compatible user agents
> now. An IE8 release with proper ARIA support will only increase
> adoption.
Do you think that in the real world, the majority of Jaws (or Window Eyes)
users are running Firefox?
It would seem to me that ARIA is being used by Ajax developers to mitigate
some accessibility questions, while leaving many more wide open - such as
sighted users with script disabled, which might number higher than blind
users, when the real need is for a solution to semantically correct and
valid client-side widgets that utilize display: none. For that, there seems
no clearer solution than Eric Meyer's "plea" from a few years ago:
http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/06/27/dont-read-speak/
That approach would, in my opinion, solve everything and leave Ajax
developers to come up with a logical solution for their widgets, which have
far more serious accessibility limitations - going far beyond the realm of
blindness.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
From: Al Sparber
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 4:30PM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Randall Pope wrote:
> In regards to the percent of web surfers using JavaScript, I dug up a
> user statistic report at
> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp. Take care.
Thanks much, Randy.
From: dean@bushidodesigns.net
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 5:10PM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Those statistics are not representative of the general population, they
are representative of code geeks like us that visit that site.
As far as I've been able to gather, the percentage of people with
javascript disabled is actually closer to 10% these days.
> From: "Randall Pope" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> In regards to the percent of web surfers using JavaScript, I dug up a user
> statistic report at http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp.
> Take care.
From: Al Sparber
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 6:55PM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
From: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Those statistics are not representative of the general population, they
> are representative of code geeks like us that visit that site.
>
> As far as I've been able to gather, the percentage of people with
> javascript disabled is actually closer to 10% these days.
It could very likely be close to 10%, which seems like a much higher
percentage than the number of people who are visually impaired to the extent
that they need to use an assistive reader.
From: Despain, Dallas
Date: Wed, Mar 04 2009 7:30PM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Al,
Sorry if I came off argumentative too :)
I agree there are a lot of roadblocks.
Dallas Despain | RightNow Technologies | Developer | 406-556-3454 | Salt Lake City, UT
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
Despain, Dallas wrote:
> Al,
>
> How are you going to implement rich desktop-type controls without
> aria? Using display:none? I don't think that will get you very far
> withsomething simple like an alert dialog not to speak of something
> complicated like a treeview.
>
>
> I also don't buy that the number of users with scripting off
> outnumbers the number of blind users.
Hi Dallas,
I wasn't trying to be argumentative or challenging. Sorry if it came off
that way :-) I am deeply concerned about accessibility. Rich desktop
controls are one thing and I agree they need to be accessible. Personally,
that's not what I do. As far as Ajax goes, I think any implementation cannot
be deemed accessible unless it is accessible not just to blind users, but to
motor-impaired users, and to any user that has script disabled. I certainly
don't know if there are actually more surfers running with script disabled
than there are blind surfers, though it might at the least be pretty close -
and it certainly must be a key issue in any accessibility discussion.
As for display: none, ARIA is being touted as a potential solution for it,
regardless of whether the deployment is Ajax or non-Ajax DOM scripting, and
I'm not clear (based on my testing) if ARIA is a viable solution for today.
I want to learn - and I want someone to show me how deploying ARIA today
will make a widget (be it Ajax or not) accessible today. If there is a
solution I certainly don't want to fight it.
From: Mark Magennis
Date: Tue, Mar 10 2009 8:50AM
Subject: Re: When will developers be able to rely on ARIA?
← Previous message | No next message
On 4 Mar 2009, at 15:30, Jared Smith wrote:
> Based on our screen reader survey results, it appears that most screen
> reader users have relatively up-to-date browsers and screen readers.
> I'd say the vast majority of them have ARIA compatible user agents
> now.
This probably varies from population to population. From what I can
gather from our technology support call logs and the experiences of
support staff here at the National Council for the Blind of Ireland
(NCBI), the breakdown of versions used by Jaws users is roughly as
follows:
Jaws versions 5 to 7 = 65%.
Jaws versions 6 to 8 = 25%.
Jaws versions 9 or 10 = 10%.
I'm not familiar with which versions are ARIA compatible. Perhaps
someone could enlighten me.
If we class a Screen Reader as Just Speech, Jaws accounts for 99.9% of
NCBI sales.
If we class a Screen Reader as Speech with Magnification, Jaws
accounts for 52%, Zoomtext Mag/Reader for 25% and Supernova for 23%.
Almost nobody in Ireland uses Window Eyes.
Mark
Dr. Mark Magennis
Director of the Centre for Inclusive Technology (CFIT)
NCBI (National Council for the Blind of Ireland)
Whitworth Road, Dublin 9, Republic of Ireland
Tel: +353 (0)71 914 7464
www.cfit.ie
********************************************************************
NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any attachments
is confidential and may be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient you should not use, disclose, distribute or copy any of
the content of it or of any attachment; you are requested to notify
the sender immediately of your receipt of the email and then to
delete it and any attachments from your system.
NCBI endeavours to ensure that emails and any attachments generated
by its staff are free from viruses or other contaminants. However,
it cannot accept any responsibility for any such which are
transmitted. We therefore recommend you scan all attachments.
Please note that the statements and views expressed in this email
and any attachments are those of the author and do not necessarily
represent the views of NCBI
********************************************************************