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Thread: When alt=""
Number of posts in this thread: 4 (In chronological order)
From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Sun, Mar 22 2009 10:50PM
Subject: When alt=""
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When Jared announced the initial results of WebAIM's survey of people who rely on us to make sure they have access to the Web, I was struck by the strong and disparate positions on when an alt attribute should be empty. Lots of people had good reasons for wanting the photo next to a name or an image added to provide a splash of color to have an alt tag. In particular, I was struck by the responses along the lines of, "I have partial vision, so I can tell that *something* is there. Why can't I tell what it is on my own?"
Out of the blue, a possible solution hit me: What if we always populate longdesc when alt is empty?
For example, a key point of contention in the discussion that ran on back then was whether Jared's photo next to his name on his blog should have an empty alt tag--and, if not, what the content of the tag should be. If we were to adopt "populate longdesc when alt is empty" as a standard practice, then the coding could be:
<img src="sourcepath/sourcefile.jpg" alt="" longdesc="author's photo" />
Presumably, people who don't care to know what images with empty alt tags are could set their readers to ignore longdesc when alt="" and people who wanted to know everything could adjust their readers to always read longdesc to them. (I'll admit ignorance on what is and what isn't possible in the adjustment of screen readers. Still, it seems to me that vendors could easily make this possible if it isn't already.)
Yes, it would be using an attribute for something other than its original purpose, but I think this sticks with the spirit of the purpose for having longdesc. And it would give the user complete control over what they hear.
Am I missing something? Or does this make sense?
Cliff Tyllick
Web development coordinator
Agency Communications Division
Texas Commission on Environmental Quality
512-239-4516
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Sven Jenzer
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 2:00AM
Subject: Re: When alt=""
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Hi Cliff
Your idea doesn't work, because longdesc needs an URI, a simple link to
a html-document or also a textfile.
See spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-longdesc-IMG
My opinion and our experience here, with hundreds of accessibility-tests
each year, each one with participation of people with disabilites, is:
Images for decoration or layout-purposes, whitout content-relevance,
should have an empty alt-attribut and no longdesc-attribute.
alt=""
Sven Jenzer
Swiss Foundation Access for all
www.access-for-all.ch
Cliff Tyllick schrieb:
> When Jared announced the initial results of WebAIM's survey of people who rely on us to make sure they have access to the Web, I was struck by the strong and disparate positions on when an alt attribute should be empty. Lots of people had good reasons for wanting the photo next to a name or an image added to provide a splash of color to have an alt tag. In particular, I was struck by the responses along the lines of, "I have partial vision, so I can tell that *something* is there. Why can't I tell what it is on my own?"
>
> Out of the blue, a possible solution hit me: What if we always populate longdesc when alt is empty?
>
> For example, a key point of contention in the discussion that ran on back then was whether Jared's photo next to his name on his blog should have an empty alt tag--and, if not, what the content of the tag should be. If we were to adopt "populate longdesc when alt is empty" as a standard practice, then the coding could be:
>
> <img src="sourcepath/sourcefile.jpg" alt="" longdesc="author's photo" />
>
> Presumably, people who don't care to know what images with empty alt tags are could set their readers to ignore longdesc when alt="" and people who wanted to know everything could adjust their readers to always read longdesc to them. (I'll admit ignorance on what is and what isn't possible in the adjustment of screen readers. Still, it seems to me that vendors could easily make this possible if it isn't already.)
>
> Yes, it would be using an attribute for something other than its original purpose, but I think this sticks with the spirit of the purpose for having longdesc. And it would give the user complete control over what they hear.
>
> Am I missing something? Or does this make sense?
>
> Cliff Tyllick
> Web development coordinator
> Agency Communications Division
> Texas Commission on Environmental Quality
> 512-239-4516
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 9:25AM
Subject: Re: When alt=""
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Thanks, Sven. I suspected that the idea might be too easy to be viable.
I've worked with very few people with disabilities, but a number of them expected to find informative alt tags where I considered the image to be decorative. The photo or avatar of a person next to an entry in their blog or their comment in an online forum seems to be where this difference of perspective turns up most often.
I do write my code as you suggest, but I was hoping to find a middle ground.
Oh, well--we can't please everybody all of the time, can we?
Cliff
>>> Sven Jenzer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 3/23/2009 2:57 AM >>>
Hi Cliff
Your idea doesn't work, because longdesc needs an URI, a simple link to
a html-document or also a textfile.
See spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-longdesc-IMG
My opinion and our experience here, with hundreds of accessibility-tests
each year, each one with participation of people with disabilites, is:
Images for decoration or layout-purposes, whitout content-relevance,
should have an empty alt-attribut and no longdesc-attribute.
alt=""
Sven Jenzer
Swiss Foundation Access for all
www.access-for-all.ch
Cliff Tyllick schrieb:
> When Jared announced the initial results of WebAIM's survey of people who rely on us to make sure they have access to the Web, I was struck by the strong and disparate positions on when an alt attribute should be empty. Lots of people had good reasons for wanting the photo next to a name or an image added to provide a splash of color to have an alt tag. In particular, I was struck by the responses along the lines of, "I have partial vision, so I can tell that *something* is there. Why can't I tell what it is on my own?"
>
> Out of the blue, a possible solution hit me: What if we always populate longdesc when alt is empty?
>
> For example, a key point of contention in the discussion that ran on back then was whether Jared's photo next to his name on his blog should have an empty alt tag--and, if not, what the content of the tag should be. If we were to adopt "populate longdesc when alt is empty" as a standard practice, then the coding could be:
>
> <img src="sourcepath/sourcefile.jpg" alt="" longdesc="author's photo" />
>
> Presumably, people who don't care to know what images with empty alt tags are could set their readers to ignore longdesc when alt="" and people who wanted to know everything could adjust their readers to always read longdesc to them. (I'll admit ignorance on what is and what isn't possible in the adjustment of screen readers. Still, it seems to me that vendors could easily make this possible if it isn't already.)
>
> Yes, it would be using an attribute for something other than its original purpose, but I think this sticks with the spirit of the purpose for having longdesc. And it would give the user complete control over what they hear.
>
> Am I missing something? Or does this make sense?
>
> Cliff Tyllick
> Web development coordinator
> Agency Communications Division
> Texas Commission on Environmental Quality
> 512-239-4516
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 11:45AM
Subject: Re: When alt=""
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Cliff Tyllick wrote:
> Lots of people had good reasons for wanting the photo next
> to a name or an image added to provide a splash of color to have an
> alt tag. In particular, I was struck by the responses along the lines
> of, "I have partial vision, so I can tell that *something* is there.
> Why can't I tell what it is on my own?"
That's a very good point. There is a wide range of variation in vision, from
absolute blindness to abnormally sharp vision. We should not assume that
seeing an image is an on/off issue.
Yet, "the alt attribute specifies alternate text that is rendered when the
image cannot be displayed", as the HTML 4.01 specification puts it. The
formulation is loose, but the point is that it's really an alternative to
the image. Thus, it should not be used to convey information needed for
understanding the image, as the two normally shouldn't both be presented to
the user at the same time.
> Out of the blue, a possible solution hit me: What if we always
> populate longdesc when alt is empty?
The approach, though interesting, doesn't work, as the longdesc attribute
was poorly designed and has mostly not been implemented.
A more practical approach would be to use the title="..." attribute, but it
is much of a hack. There is no clear definition of the meaning of this
attribute, beyond the vague expression "advisory title". In practice, it is
mostly used to specify a tooltip. This might be tolerably compatible with
your intended usage.
But most importantly, if an image needs a textual explanation, why not
present it in a manner that is accessible to all? That is, in normal textual
content, e.g. as a caption or as an explanatory paragraph. The only drawback
is that such text is mostly noise to people who have no way of seeing the
image or just don't want to see it.
So if you think an image really needs a longish explanation (e.g. to people
who don't see the image sharply enough), you might consider putting it
behind a link.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/