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Thread: Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
Number of posts in this thread: 6 (In chronological order)
From: Robison, Cole [EISU]
Date: Wed, May 06 2009 9:30AM
Subject: Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
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I'm looking for some insight in how to best optimize the representation
of large dollar figures in alt text, particularly with respect to how
screen readers typically handle the various alternatives.
I've been presented with a proposed alt attribute value containing a
familiar shorthand representation like:
$508M
I assume that the "M" for "million" could be confusing, and that
spelling it out would be better:
$508 million
But I wonder how this compares to doing so numerically:
$508,000,000
Is one approach preferred over the other?
(And if the full numerical representation is used, is it better to
include or exclude the commas?)
I also wonder about the dollar sign: is it read before the number, as
written, or do screen readers make the adjustment to read it as the word
"dollars" after the number? (And if they do, would the number, followed
by a space, followed by the word "million" trip it up? That is, would
"$508 million" become "five hundred eight dollars million"?) In short,
would it be better to replace the dollar sign with the word "dollars"
after the figure?
These, then, are the various possibilities:
a) $508 M
b) $508 million
c) $508,000,000
d) $508000000
e) 508 M dollars
f) 508 million dollars
g) 508,000,000 dollars
h) 508000000 dollars
Which is best?
Thanks,
Cole Robison
Director of Statewide Web/IT Accessibility
Division of Information Systems and Communications
State of Kansas
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(785) 291-3016
From: Travis Roth
Date: Wed, May 06 2009 10:00AM
Subject: Re: Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
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JAWS' default reading reads the dollar sign ($) first:
$508,000,000 = "dollar five hundred eight million."
JAWS can be set to spell out numbers via digits. I am not sure if you can
get it to change the reding order of the dollar sign.
As for if "$508m" is confusing: I think it depends on the context. If the
article is giving the numbers in this fashion for all readers and it says
something like "numbers are in millions" then it is no more confusing for a
screen reader user than anyone else.
If numbers in the text are being used in their entireity then I suggest
using the same approach in the Alt text.
Lastly, as for using commas. Yes please include the commas. It does not
impact the speech output generally. However, it does improve the readability
for Braille users, and for if the user decides to read the number one
character at a time.
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Robison, Cole
[EISU]
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 10:31 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
I'm looking for some insight in how to best optimize the representation
of large dollar figures in alt text, particularly with respect to how
screen readers typically handle the various alternatives.
I've been presented with a proposed alt attribute value containing a
familiar shorthand representation like:
$508M
I assume that the "M" for "million" could be confusing, and that
spelling it out would be better:
$508 million
But I wonder how this compares to doing so numerically:
$508,000,000
Is one approach preferred over the other?
(And if the full numerical representation is used, is it better to
include or exclude the commas?)
I also wonder about the dollar sign: is it read before the number, as
written, or do screen readers make the adjustment to read it as the word
"dollars" after the number? (And if they do, would the number, followed
by a space, followed by the word "million" trip it up? That is, would
"$508 million" become "five hundred eight dollars million"?) In short,
would it be better to replace the dollar sign with the word "dollars"
after the figure?
These, then, are the various possibilities:
a) $508 M
b) $508 million
c) $508,000,000
d) $508000000
e) 508 M dollars
f) 508 million dollars
g) 508,000,000 dollars
h) 508000000 dollars
Which is best?
Thanks,
Cole Robison
Director of Statewide Web/IT Accessibility
Division of Information Systems and Communications
State of Kansas
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(785) 291-3016
From: Patrick Burke
Date: Wed, May 06 2009 10:05AM
Subject: Re: Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
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With standard settings in Jaws 10 (at least I don't think I changed
anything), options A and E read incorrectly. All the others read the
same way ("Five hundred eight million dollars").
There are several user-changeable settings (for punctuation
filtering, number processing etc.) that can affect the speech
rendering by a given screen reader or speech synthesis engine. This
is well beyond the control of the content author to predict exact behavior.
So, I would suggest sticking with one of the numbers-only options
(commas or no doesn't seem to matter, though the European usage of .
to divide up numbers will confuse American screen readers). The M for
"million" abbreviation seems to be the only really tricky version.
Patrick
At 08:30 AM 5/6/2009, Robison, Cole [EISU] wrote:
>I'm looking for some insight in how to best optimize the representation
>of large dollar figures in alt text, particularly with respect to how
>screen readers typically handle the various alternatives.
>
>I've been presented with a proposed alt attribute value containing a
>familiar shorthand representation like:
>
>$508M
>
>I assume that the "M" for "million" could be confusing, and that
>spelling it out would be better:
>
>$508 million
>
>But I wonder how this compares to doing so numerically:
>
>$508,000,000
>
>Is one approach preferred over the other?
>
>(And if the full numerical representation is used, is it better to
>include or exclude the commas?)
>
>I also wonder about the dollar sign: is it read before the number, as
>written, or do screen readers make the adjustment to read it as the word
>"dollars" after the number? (And if they do, would the number, followed
>by a space, followed by the word "million" trip it up? That is, would
>"$508 million" become "five hundred eight dollars million"?) In short,
>would it be better to replace the dollar sign with the word "dollars"
>after the figure?
>
>These, then, are the various possibilities:
>
>a) $508 M
>b) $508 million
>c) $508,000,000
>d) $508000000
>e) 508 M dollars
>f) 508 million dollars
>g) 508,000,000 dollars
>h) 508000000 dollars
>
>Which is best?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Cole Robison
>Director of Statewide Web/IT Accessibility
>Division of Information Systems and Communications
>State of Kansas
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>(785) 291-3016
>
>
>
From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, May 06 2009 10:40AM
Subject: Re: Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
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On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Robison, Cole [EISU] wrote:
> I'm looking for some insight in how to best optimize the representation
> of large dollar figures in alt text
I'd almost universally recommend presenting the alt text in the same
format it is presented visually. If the image displays "$508M" then
the alt text should be "$508M". If sighted users are expected to know
what "$508M" is, why expect something less from users just because
they don't happen to use a screen reader?
But if you have full control over the presentation, then the other
comments here have given good insight into better options for
everybody.
Jared Smith
WebAIM
From: Randi
Date: Wed, May 06 2009 10:55AM
Subject: Re: Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
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Hi there,
As a user of Voiceover, the dollar sign is always read before the
number. So it says, "Dollar 508. I would be able to understand it any
way it is written, if you do the M for million. As Patrick pointed
out, there are individual settings for how numbers are written. I have
mine set to read each number individually, because if I have it set to
say five hundred and eight million, phone numbers and ID numbers are
read that ways as well. So I would hear "Dollar five zero eight zero
zero zero etc". It does help if there are coma's because then my
reader pauses between each set of zeros rather than rattling them off
so that I must interact to count, or count really fast.
So I would vote for Dollar sign number and zeros, but using the M
makes sense as well. I don't think you need to worry about where the
dollar sign is.
HTH,
Randi
On 5/6/09, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Robison, Cole [EISU] wrote:
>> I'm looking for some insight in how to best optimize the representation
>> of large dollar figures in alt text
>
> I'd almost universally recommend presenting the alt text in the same
> format it is presented visually. If the image displays "$508M" then
> the alt text should be "$508M". If sighted users are expected to know
> what "$508M" is, why expect something less from users just because
> they don't happen to use a screen reader?
>
> But if you have full control over the presentation, then the other
> comments here have given good insight into better options for
> everybody.
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM
>
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, May 06 2009 2:45PM
Subject: Re: Large numbers and currency symbols in screen readers
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Jared Smith wrote:
> I'd almost universally recommend presenting the alt text in the same
> format it is presented visually.
I'd almost universally recommend just the opposite: forget the visual
presentation, since you are primarily dealing with something to be presented
to people who cannot see the image. Hence, you should first think of aural
rendering. It is true that in some modes of browsing, it is nice to have a
compact textual presentation. But there is a difference between necessity
and niceness.
> If the image displays "$508M" then
> the alt text should be "$508M". If sighted users are expected to know
> what "$508M" is, why expect something less from users just because
> they don't happen to use a screen reader?
Partly because they might not be familiar with such notations, as they don't
read newspapers etc. the same way as sighted people so often do; partly
because the software they use might, for all that we can know, render the
notation in some clumsy or even cryptic way.
So I would say that the best alt text would be "five hundred and eight
million dollars". Then it does not matter how the software handles digits
and special notations.
I don't expect authors to take trouble as a rule, though.
But I wonder why one would use an image to represent text like "$508M". This
is the crucial question.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/