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Thread: Re: SPAM?: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

Number of posts in this thread: 42 (In chronological order)

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:15AM
Subject: Re: SPAM?: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
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It seems to work pretty well, particularly when activating the links or navigating by headers with a screen reader. A person who uses a screen reader and a magnifier in combination may have problems if they attempt to navigate by heading because the article remains partially obscured after navigating to the heading.

Mike Moore
(512) 424-4159

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Loremy
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:58 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: SPAM?:[WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

Hello,

Could anybody please tell me if the slider on the linked page is accessible to the screenreader
users among you?

http://jqueryfordesigners.com/demo/coda-slider.html

In its present form -- with ul.navigation a:focus set to "outline:none" -- you can't even reach the
tabs for tabbed browsing, which can be easily changed, though.

But what about you screenreader users? I checked the page with the Firefox add-on FANGS and all the
text is mentioned in the output window, as well as all the headings and links. But I doubt that
screenreader users would know where exactly they are on the page? Any comments will be greatly
appreciated.

In case it's not accessible for screenreaders, would anybody know how to get this accomplished in
this example?

Thank you very much for any help.

Loremy

From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:27AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

There's a slider on the page? :O)

cheers

GeofAt 08:58 AM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Could anybody please tell me if the slider on the linked page is
>accessible to the screenreader
>users among you?
>
>http://jqueryfordesigners.com/demo/coda-slider.html
>
>In its present form -- with ul.navigation a:focus set to
>"outline:none" -- you can't even reach the
>tabs for tabbed browsing, which can be easily changed, though.
>
>But what about you screenreader users? I checked the page with the
>Firefox add-on FANGS and all the
>text is mentioned in the output window, as well as all the headings
>and links. But I doubt that
>screenreader users would know where exactly they are on the page?
>Any comments will be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>In case it's not accessible for screenreaders, would anybody know
>how to get this accomplished in
>this example?
>
>Thank you very much for any help.
>
>Loremy
>
>

From: Loremy
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:36AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Randi,

> I went to the page, but didn't find anything called a slider. Maybe
> it's my novice, but what am I looking for? Sounds like some foreign
> language and links, but nothing called a slider. There is an unlabeled
> image, could that be it? Not sure what to look for. I'm using
> Voiceover with Leopard and Safari.

my fault, sorry, I should have given some details about the page.
It's an example for one of the so-called sliders, where you can slide text or images without going
to another page.
This one looks like a file card with tabs at the top, where the tabs are links to the different
"slides" with Lorem ipsum text (just placeholder text in pseudo Latin) on each of them. As soon
as a mouse user clicks on a tab, the text or image slides off and the next one
follows.

I am wondering how accessible this is for screenrader users.

Thank you very much for checking this out.

Loremy

From: Loremy
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:39AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Michael,

> It seems to work pretty well, particularly when activating the links or navigating
> by headers with a screen reader. A person who uses a screen reader and a
> magnifier in combination may have problems if they attempt to navigate by
> heading because the article remains partially obscured after navigating to the heading.

Thank you very much for these details!
It will be interesting to hear the opinion of several among you -- as Randi's post showed, there are
different experiences even among screenreader users.

Loremy

From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:42AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh! Haha I was imagining a volume slider type idea lol!
~Randi

One Day at a Time

From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:48AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Ok, now that I know what I'm looking at, I like it. I think the word
slider really through me off. I'm thinking this is a visual technique,
like you described?

The thing I like about it though, is that if I click on a link, my
screen reader says "heading level 2 books" or something, so I know the
link has initialized. Often times the fancy stuff doesn't indicate
that anything has happened. So in this case, I like that my reader is
telling me what's going on. I think from a Voiceover perspective, it's
a winner. And now I know what a slider is. Oh, I like that it keeps
all the content on one page, too. That is really really nice.

*Randi

Doggy Diaries and other ramblings at:
http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:57AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Loremy wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
>
>> It seems to work pretty well, particularly when activating the links or navigating
>> by headers with a screen reader. A person who uses a screen reader and a
>> magnifier in combination may have problems if they attempt to navigate by
>> heading because the article remains partially obscured after navigating to the heading.
>>
>
> Thank you very much for these details!
> It will be interesting to hear the opinion of several among you -- as Randi's post showed, there are
> different experiences even among screenreader users.
>
> Loremy
>
The other big issue is that there is no keyboard access for this slider.
We've recently released a blog post on how we made the carousels on the
Yahoo homepage keyboard and screen reader accessible using YUI. Check
this out:

http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/10/accessible_tabs.html

More information of the YUI3 implementation in detail:
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/examples/node-focusmanager/node-focusmanager-2.html

If you are dead set on jQuery, here's a solution using this framework:
http://blog.ginader.de/archives/2009/02/07/jQuery-Accessible-Tabs-How-to-make-tabs-REALLY-accessible.php

Also, I'd be very wary of people's personal experiences with this. I
work with three different blind developers and each of them sees my
solutions in varying states of usefulness.

regards,

Chris

From: Loremy
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 8:06AM
Subject: Re: SPAM?: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

From: Loremy
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 8:15AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Randi,

> The thing I like about it though, is that if I click on a link, my
> screen reader says "heading level 2 books" or something, so I know the
> link has initialized. Often times the fancy stuff doesn't indicate
> that anything has happened. So in this case, I like that my reader is
> telling me what's going on. I think from a Voiceover perspective, it's
> a winner. And now I know what a slider is. Oh, I like that it keeps
> all the content on one page, too. That is really really nice.

Glad that you like it, because I had my doubts as regards accessibility for screenreaders.

Geof's comment
> There's a slider on the page? :O)
shows there still are concerns over this kind of technique.

It would be useful if anybody providing info on their experiences could mention the type of
assistive technology they are using.

So you are using Voiceover with Leopard and Safari.
I guess Michael is using JAWS.

I hope to get even more feedback, also from those who think it is not really accessible.

Loremy

From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 8:21AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

As far as navigation, it seems accessible. It's hard to say for sure,
since I can't understand the content, being a foreign language, but it
makes sense. Keep in mind though, that i didn't know what I was
looking for at first. I would wonder what someone would think if the
stumbled upon a page with this. Since I knew what I should look for
after you described it, I wasn't lost. But it might confuse someone too.

~Randi

In the Center of the Roof

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 8:24AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Loremy

I'm using JAWS 10.0 with IE 8 and I dont experience anything, nothing
on the page changes when I clikc the links.

cheers

Geof

At 10:09 AM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Randi,
>
> > The thing I like about it though, is that if I click on a link, my
> > screen reader says "heading level 2 books" or something, so I know the
> > link has initialized. Often times the fancy stuff doesn't indicate
> > that anything has happened. So in this case, I like that my reader is
> > telling me what's going on. I think from a Voiceover perspective, it's
> > a winner. And now I know what a slider is. Oh, I like that it keeps
> > all the content on one page, too. That is really really nice.
>
>Glad that you like it, because I had my doubts as regards
>accessibility for screenreaders.
>
>Geof's comment
> > There's a slider on the page? :O)
>shows there still are concerns over this kind of technique.
>
>It would be useful if anybody providing info on their experiences
>could mention the type of
>assistive technology they are using.
>
>So you are using Voiceover with Leopard and Safari.
>I guess Michael is using JAWS.
>
>I hope to get even more feedback, also from those who think it is
>not really accessible.
>
>Loremy
>
>

From: Loremy
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 8:48AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Geof,

> I'm using JAWS 10.0 with IE 8 and I dont experience anything, nothing
> on the page changes when I clikc the links.

Thanks a lot for your feeedback -- that's really a pity, since I can image that JAWS 10 with IE 8
might be quite common a combination among screenreader users.
I would love to use such a slider, but there seem to be quite a few drawbacks.

Unfortunately, the text on each slide is the same Lorem Ipsum filler text, so any blind tester
couldn't really tell for sure whether anything actually changed to boot.

Loremy

From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 8:54AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

HI Loremy

That might be the problem. If you could give some indication that
something had changed it might not seem as inaccessible as you think. :O)

cheers

Geof

At 10:45 AM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>Hi Geof,
>
> > I'm using JAWS 10.0 with IE 8 and I dont experience anything, nothing
> > on the page changes when I clikc the links.
>
>Thanks a lot for your feeedback -- that's really a pity, since I can
>image that JAWS 10 with IE 8
>might be quite common a combination among screenreader users.
>I would love to use such a slider, but there seem to be quite a few drawbacks.
>
>Unfortunately, the text on each slide is the same Lorem Ipsum filler
>text, so any blind tester
>couldn't really tell for sure whether anything actually changed to boot.
>
>Loremy
>
>

From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 9:09AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Sliders should be using ARIA and keyboard support:

ARIA:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#slider

DHTML Style Guide:
http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide#slider

Examples:
http://test.cita.illinois.edu/aria/slider
http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/Set_of_ARIA_Test_Cases#Slider

Jon

---- Original message ----
>Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 14:55:15 +0000
>From: Christian Heilmann < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
>To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>Loremy wrote:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>>
>>> It seems to work pretty well, particularly when activating the links or navigating
>>> by headers with a screen reader. A person who uses a screen reader and a
>>> magnifier in combination may have problems if they attempt to navigate by
>>> heading because the article remains partially obscured after navigating to the heading.
>>>
>>
>> Thank you very much for these details!
>> It will be interesting to hear the opinion of several among you -- as Randi's post showed, there are
>> different experiences even among screenreader users.
>>
>> Loremy
>>
>The other big issue is that there is no keyboard access for this slider.
>We've recently released a blog post on how we made the carousels on the
>Yahoo homepage keyboard and screen reader accessible using YUI. Check
>this out:
>
>http://developer.yahoo.net/blog/archives/2009/10/accessible_tabs.html
>
>More information of the YUI3 implementation in detail:
>http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/3/examples/node-focusmanager/node-focusmanager-2.html
>
>
>If you are dead set on jQuery, here's a solution using this framework:
>http://blog.ginader.de/archives/2009/02/07/jQuery-Accessible-Tabs-How-to-make-tabs-REALLY-accessible.php
>
>
>Also, I'd be very wary of people's personal experiences with this. I
>work with three different blind developers and each of them sees my
>solutions in varying states of usefulness.
>
>regards,
>
>Chris
>
>

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 9:18AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Jon Gunderson wrote:
> Sliders should be using ARIA and keyboard support:
>
erm, these do?

From: Loremy
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 9:42AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jon,

> Sliders should be using ARIA and keyboard support:
> ARIA:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/#slider

Thanks, but I am not talking about a slider in this sense
"A user input where the user selects a value from within a given range."

I was asking about this web page
http://jqueryfordesigners.com/demo/coda-slider.html

As I said in an earlier posting,

> It's an example for one of the so-called sliders, where you can slide
> text or images without going to another page. This one looks like a file card
> with tabs at the top, where the tabs are links to the different "slides" with
> Lorem ipsum text (just placeholder text in pseudo Latin) on each of them.
> As soon as a mouse user clicks on a tab, the text or image slides off and
> the next one follows.
> I am wondering how accessible this is for screenrader users.

Loremy

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 9:51AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

> Thanks, but I am not talking about a slider in this sense
> "A user input where the user selects a value from within a given range."
>
> I was asking about this web page
> http://jqueryfordesigners.com/demo/coda-slider.html
>
> As I said in an earlier posting,
>
Yes, this is called a carousel:

http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/selection/carousel.html

From: Keith Parks
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:03AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:

> Hi Randi,
>
> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
> content:
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
>

The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
"Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.

But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.

******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications

http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------

Proud member of D/d.U.T.R.T.W.O.C.H.S.
(Designers/developers United To Rid The Web Of "Click Here" Syndrome)

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:06AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, this is called a carousel:

http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/selection/carousel.html

Is it a carousel because it animates in from the sides or a tab set because all of the options are in view at the top?
http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/navigation/tabs/moduletabs.html

And, more importantly, is there a semantic difference?
AWK

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:09AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Randi,

Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the content:
http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

> Hi there,
>
> I went to the page, but didn't find anything called a slider. Maybe
> it's my novice, but what am I looking for? Sounds like some foreign
> language and links, but nothing called a slider. There is an unlabeled
> image, could that be it? Not sure what to look for. I'm using
> Voiceover with Leopard and Safari.

From: Loremy
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:12AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for your great hints.
At the moment, I have a lot of road work ahead, so, unfortunately, don't find the time to get into
YUI3.
Also thanks for pointing me to Dirk Ginader's accessible tabs, which seem to be very useful,
although it's not a slider/carousel and I am not enough of a developer to implement these tabs into
the carousel we are talking about.

Randi said:

> The thing I like about it though, is that if I click on a link, my
> screen reader says "heading level 2 books" or something, so I know the
> link has initialized. Often times the fancy stuff doesn't indicate
> that anything has happened. So in this case, I like that my reader is
> telling me what's going on.

So obviously, even with the ul.navigation a:focus set to "outline:none", which could easily be
changed, Randi was told that heading level 2 "books" was "initialized", i.e. brought into focus.

After reading your suggestions, I think you are saying it wouldn't even be enough to take away the
outline:none.
I did this and now have perfect keyboard access (for tab key navigation), but I guess what you are
driving at is that we are talking two kinds of keyboard access -- the one I have as a non-user of
AT, and the keyboard access that users of some AT still wouldn't have, even when taking away the
"outline:none" ?
Is that correct?

> Also, I'd be very wary of people's personal experiences with this. I
> work with three different blind developers and each of them sees my
> solutions in varying states of usefulness.

Yes, that seems to be a big "caveat" one has to bear in mind with these accessibility efforts.

Thanks again,

Loremy

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:15AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Keith Parks wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Randi,
>>
>> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
>> content:
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
>>
>>
>
> The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
> "Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.
>
> But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
>
>
To a degree. It is tab-able but not really usable with a keyboard. The
cursor keys is what makes it a proper tab control.

If we want to use ARIA and we want to build interfaces that are the same
as rich client interfaces we also have to get away from the idea of
tabbing as the way to access data on the web. Todd Kloots did some
amazing research work in this area:

http://ericmiraglia.com/blog/?p=132

The roaming tabindex for example makes sure you can access a massive
menu without tabbing 200 times:

http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#focus_tabindex
http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/02/23/managing-focus/

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:18AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
> Yes, this is called a carousel:
>
> http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/selection/carousel.html
>
> Is it a carousel because it animates in from the sides or a tab set because all of the options are in view at the top?
> http://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/navigation/tabs/moduletabs.html
>
> And, more importantly, is there a semantic difference?
> AWK
>
It is tricky, and dependent on the content. As we select in between
Lorem Ipsum and Lorem Ipsum here that is tricky :)

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:33AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

> Keith Parks wrote:
>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Randi,
>>>
>>> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
>>> content:
>>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
>> "Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.
>>
>> But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
>>
>>
> To a degree. It is tab-able but not really usable with a keyboard. The
> cursor keys is what makes it a proper tab control.
>
> If we want to use ARIA and we want to build interfaces that are the same
> as rich client interfaces we also have to get away from the idea of
> tabbing as the way to access data on the web. Todd Kloots did some
> amazing research work in this area:
>
> http://ericmiraglia.com/blog/?p=132
>
> The roaming tabindex for example makes sure you can access a massive
> menu without tabbing 200 times:
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#focus_tabindex
> http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/02/23/managing-focus/

To be honest, we're not completely sold on ARIA at this point in time. It's
interesting to view as a future solution. Our accessibility testing group is
small, but comprised of people who have real disabilities and we tend to
keep things as simple as possible. While our results tend to sometimes be at
odds with specifications authors, they do seem to work well for actual
users. But then again we are not sold on AJAX either. If we were, we would
likely be far more compelled to embrace ARIA and the like.

Our "carousel" was just released so we are still fleshing out potential
accessibility updates. Hopefully, any tweaks we make can be as simple as
possible :-)

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:39AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Al Sparber wrote:
> From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
>> Keith Parks wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Randi,
>>>>
>>>> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
>>>> content:
>>>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
>>> "Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.
>>>
>>> But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> To a degree. It is tab-able but not really usable with a keyboard. The
>> cursor keys is what makes it a proper tab control.
>>
>> If we want to use ARIA and we want to build interfaces that are the same
>> as rich client interfaces we also have to get away from the idea of
>> tabbing as the way to access data on the web. Todd Kloots did some
>> amazing research work in this area:
>>
>> http://ericmiraglia.com/blog/?p=132
>>
>> The roaming tabindex for example makes sure you can access a massive
>> menu without tabbing 200 times:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#focus_tabindex
>> http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/02/23/managing-focus/
>>
>
>
> To be honest, we're not completely sold on ARIA at this point in time. It's
> interesting to view as a future solution. Our accessibility testing group is
> small, but comprised of people who have real disabilities and we tend to
> keep things as simple as possible. While our results tend to sometimes be at
> odds with specifications authors, they do seem to work well for actual
> users. But then again we are not sold on AJAX either. If we were, we would
> likely be far more compelled to embrace ARIA and the like.
>
> Our "carousel" was just released so we are still fleshing out potential
> accessibility updates. Hopefully, any tweaks we make can be as simple as
> possible :-)
>
>
Great. We throw all this information above out for free and write the
explanations for exactly that use case. There is not much sense in 40
people all doing the same research and arguing results. But then again
this is the impression I get of the accessibility world as a whole as
otherwise we'd have much more open source products.

From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:51AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Perhaps someone could direct their energies on making this email list
more accessible for us screen reader users, I'm finding I've got to
do a lotof searching just to find some of your answers amongst all
the greater signs.

cheers

Geof

At 12:39 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>Al Sparber wrote:
> > From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >
> >
> >> Keith Parks wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hi Randi,
> >>>>
> >>>> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
> >>>> content:
> >>>>
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
> >>> "Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.
> >>>
> >>> But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> To a degree. It is tab-able but not really usable with a keyboard. The
> >> cursor keys is what makes it a proper tab control.
> >>
> >> If we want to use ARIA and we want to build interfaces that are the same
> >> as rich client interfaces we also have to get away from the idea of
> >> tabbing as the way to access data on the web. Todd Kloots did some
> >> amazing research work in this area:
> >>
> >> http://ericmiraglia.com/blog/?p=132
> >>
> >> The roaming tabindex for example makes sure you can access a massive
> >> menu without tabbing 200 times:
> >>
> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#focus_tabindex
> >> http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/02/23/managing-focus/
> >>
> >
> >
> > To be honest, we're not completely sold on ARIA at this point in
> time. It's
> > interesting to view as a future solution. Our accessibility
> testing group is
> > small, but comprised of people who have real disabilities and we tend to
> > keep things as simple as possible. While our results tend to
> sometimes be at
> > odds with specifications authors, they do seem to work well for actual
> > users. But then again we are not sold on AJAX either. If we were, we would
> > likely be far more compelled to embrace ARIA and the like.
> >
> > Our "carousel" was just released so we are still fleshing out potential
> > accessibility updates. Hopefully, any tweaks we make can be as simple as
> > possible :-)
> >
> >
>Great. We throw all this information above out for free and write the
>explanations for exactly that use case. There is not much sense in 40
>people all doing the same research and arguing results. But then again
>this is the impression I get of the accessibility world as a whole as
>otherwise we'd have much more open source products.
>
>

From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:54AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

I dont experience anything on these pages, I get 3 links that do
nothing and 3 headings with text in them and that is before I even
start clicking on the links. It tells me that if the test was
successful I would have read all the explanations but I did without
doing anything.

cheers

Geof

At 12:02 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:

>On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
> > Hi Randi,
> >
> > Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
> > content:
> >
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
> >
>
>The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
>"Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.
>
>But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
>
>******************************
>Keith Parks
>Graphic Designer/Web Designer
>Student Affairs Communications Services
>San Diego State University
>San Diego, CA 92182-7444
>(619) 594-1046
>mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
>
>http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>Proud member of D/d.U.T.R.T.W.O.C.H.S.
>(Designers/developers United To Rid The Web Of "Click Here" Syndrome)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 10:57AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

>> To be honest, we're not completely sold on ARIA at this point in time.
>> It's
>> interesting to view as a future solution. Our accessibility testing group
>> is
>> small, but comprised of people who have real disabilities and we tend to
>> keep things as simple as possible. While our results tend to sometimes be
>> at
>> odds with specifications authors, they do seem to work well for actual
>> users. But then again we are not sold on AJAX either. If we were, we
>> would
>> likely be far more compelled to embrace ARIA and the like.
>>
>> Our "carousel" was just released so we are still fleshing out potential
>> accessibility updates. Hopefully, any tweaks we make can be as simple as
>> possible :-)
>>
>>
> Great. We throw all this information above out for free and write the
> explanations for exactly that use case. There is not much sense in 40
> people all doing the same research and arguing results. But then again
> this is the impression I get of the accessibility world as a whole as
> otherwise we'd have much more open source products.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Please do understand that I don't
want to be adversarial. We put a lot of thought into accessibility and we
firmly believe that no solution is ever perfect. The holy grail, at least to
us, is finding the best compromise for the times :-)

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

"Geof Collis" wrote:
I dont experience anything on these pages, I get 3 links that do nothing and
3 headings with text in them and that is before I even start clicking on the
links. It tells me that if the test was successful I would have read all the
explanations but I did without doing anything.

Hi Geof,

I removed the greater than symbols :-)

So you actually read all of the content. The confusion is in the trigger
links that actuate the content panels for sighted users. This is something
we are still working on. Most of our blind testers are used to "same-page"
links or set their readers, 90+% JAWS, to simply read readings. There is no
doubt confusion to one extent or another with these "links" and we are
working on that. The greater problem, however, is that accessibility
researchers within the web development community are trying to develop
solutions that work around the absence of features within assistive readers
that could easily enable web developers to hide things or tailor a document
to "show" only that which is necessary for a blind person's device to "see".

Sadly, I've yet to see a movement or an effort to get JAWS, and the like, to
implement tools that developers can use to make accessibility simple.

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 11:15AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Most of our blind testers are used to "same-page" links or set their
readers, 90+% JAWS, to simply read readings.

Sorry for the typo. The last word in the above sentence should have been:

"headings"

From: Don Mauck
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 11:24AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Not sure what you mean by setting your reader to simply read Headings. Certainly look for headings on every page I go to but there is no specific setting to do that.

-----Original Message-----
From: Al Sparber [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:15 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

Most of our blind testers are used to "same-page" links or set their
readers, 90+% JAWS, to simply read readings.

Sorry for the typo. The last word in the above sentence should have been:

"headings"

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 12:18PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

"Not sure what you mean by setting your reader to simply read Headings.
Certainly look for headings on every page I go to but there is no specific
setting to do that."

I meant pressing "H" to navigate through page headings.

From: Carin Headrick
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 12:24PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

In JAWS, you can bring up a heading list with insert f6. I don't know about all the others.

Carin
----- Original Message -----
From: Al Sparber
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

"Not sure what you mean by setting your reader to simply read Headings.
Certainly look for headings on every page I go to but there is no specific
setting to do that."

I meant pressing "H" to navigate through page headings.

From: Don Mauck
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 12:39PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes of course but I don't think that's what was meant.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carin Headrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:23 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

In JAWS, you can bring up a heading list with insert f6. I don't know about all the others.

Carin
----- Original Message -----
From: Al Sparber
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

"Not sure what you mean by setting your reader to simply read Headings.
Certainly look for headings on every page I go to but there is no specific
setting to do that."

I meant pressing "H" to navigate through page headings.

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 1:12PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

From: "Don Mauck" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

> Yes of course but I don't think that's what was meant.

I meant that one can navigate a page by moving from heading to heading.
There are various ways of accomplishing that in various accessibility apps.
All you had to do was ask me to state my point with added clarity :-)

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 3:27PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

I am using JAWS 11 and while it read the page with the links showing it was
confusing in that I wasn't what was actually the slider that you were
inquiring about. I am also guessing from the way that the page was being
read that much of it was not in English.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Loremy" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 5:58 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

> Hello,
>
> Could anybody please tell me if the slider on the linked page is
> accessible to the screenreader
> users among you?
>
> http://jqueryfordesigners.com/demo/coda-slider.html
>
> In its present form -- with ul.navigation a:focus set to "outline:none" --
> you can't even reach the
> tabs for tabbed browsing, which can be easily changed, though.
>
> But what about you screenreader users? I checked the page with the Firefox
> add-on FANGS and all the
> text is mentioned in the output window, as well as all the headings and
> links. But I doubt that
> screenreader users would know where exactly they are on the page? Any
> comments will be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> In case it's not accessible for screenreaders, would anybody know how to
> get this accomplished in
> this example?
>
> Thank you very much for any help.
>
> Loremy
>
>

From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 3:33PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Jeff,

I have to agree. I'm just deleting all the messages with prior
messages quoted at the beginning of the message. I know this is off
the topic of the slider, but I have to say I'm missing stuff because
of all the quoted messages at the top of the messages.

Al, I haven't had a chance to look at that page, but I will, as I like
this stuff. Just brain dead at the moment, and all the quoting isn't
helping ;)

-Randi

I'm not disabled, my eyes are.
http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 4:00PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

I like the layout and format of this page. It was totally accessible with
JAWS 11 and IE8.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Sparber" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

> Hi Randi,
>
> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the content:
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
>
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
>
>
>
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I went to the page, but didn't find anything called a slider. Maybe
>> it's my novice, but what am I looking for? Sounds like some foreign
>> language and links, but nothing called a slider. There is an unlabeled
>> image, could that be it? Not sure what to look for. I'm using
>> Voiceover with Leopard and Safari.
>
>

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 4:15PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

I was just thinking the same. It could be quite time consuming If I listened
to all the > signs that JAWS would read if I would let it.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?

> Perhaps someone could direct their energies on making this email list
> more accessible for us screen reader users, I'm finding I've got to
> do a lotof searching just to find some of your answers amongst all
> the greater signs.
>
> cheers
>
> Geof
>
> At 12:39 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>>Al Sparber wrote:
>> > From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Keith Parks wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hi Randi,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
>> >>>> content:
>> >>>>
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>> The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
>> >>> "Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.
>> >>>
>> >>> But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> To a degree. It is tab-able but not really usable with a keyboard. The
>> >> cursor keys is what makes it a proper tab control.
>> >>
>> >> If we want to use ARIA and we want to build interfaces that are the
>> >> same
>> >> as rich client interfaces we also have to get away from the idea of
>> >> tabbing as the way to access data on the web. Todd Kloots did some
>> >> amazing research work in this area:
>> >>
>> >> http://ericmiraglia.com/blog/?p=132
>> >>
>> >> The roaming tabindex for example makes sure you can access a massive
>> >> menu without tabbing 200 times:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#focus_tabindex
>> >> http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/02/23/managing-focus/
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > To be honest, we're not completely sold on ARIA at this point in
>> time. It's
>> > interesting to view as a future solution. Our accessibility
>> testing group is
>> > small, but comprised of people who have real disabilities and we tend
>> > to
>> > keep things as simple as possible. While our results tend to
>> sometimes be at
>> > odds with specifications authors, they do seem to work well for actual
>> > users. But then again we are not sold on AJAX either. If we were, we
>> > would
>> > likely be far more compelled to embrace ARIA and the like.
>> >
>> > Our "carousel" was just released so we are still fleshing out potential
>> > accessibility updates. Hopefully, any tweaks we make can be as simple
>> > as
>> > possible :-)
>> >
>> >
>>Great. We throw all this information above out for free and write the
>>explanations for exactly that use case. There is not much sense in 40
>>people all doing the same research and arguing results. But then again
>>this is the impression I get of the accessibility world as a whole as
>>otherwise we'd have much more open source products.
>>
>>

From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:00PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Chuck wrote:
"I like the layout and format of this page. It was totally accessible with
JAWS 11 and IE8."

Thanks Chuck. That confirms fairly well the concensus amongst our testers.
We'll still be trying to make it better if we can - without getting overly
complex.

Thanks again.

--
Al Sparber

From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:09PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Chuck

Kind of ironic that a list devoted to accessibility poses
accessibility barriers.

cheers

Geof

At 06:14 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>I was just thinking the same. It could be quite time consuming If I listened
>to all the > signs that JAWS would read if I would let it.
>Chuck
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:49 AM
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
>
>
> > Perhaps someone could direct their energies on making this email list
> > more accessible for us screen reader users, I'm finding I've got to
> > do a lotof searching just to find some of your answers amongst all
> > the greater signs.
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > Geof
> >
> > At 12:39 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
> >>Al Sparber wrote:
> >> > From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Keith Parks wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> Hi Randi,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
> >> >>>> content:
> >> >>>>
> >>
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
> >> >>> "Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at least.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >> To a degree. It is tab-able but not really usable with a keyboard. The
> >> >> cursor keys is what makes it a proper tab control.
> >> >>
> >> >> If we want to use ARIA and we want to build interfaces that are the
> >> >> same
> >> >> as rich client interfaces we also have to get away from the idea of
> >> >> tabbing as the way to access data on the web. Todd Kloots did some
> >> >> amazing research work in this area:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://ericmiraglia.com/blog/?p=132
> >> >>
> >> >> The roaming tabindex for example makes sure you can access a massive
> >> >> menu without tabbing 200 times:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#focus_tabindex
> >> >> http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/02/23/managing-focus/
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > To be honest, we're not completely sold on ARIA at this point in
> >> time. It's
> >> > interesting to view as a future solution. Our accessibility
> >> testing group is
> >> > small, but comprised of people who have real disabilities and we tend
> >> > to
> >> > keep things as simple as possible. While our results tend to
> >> sometimes be at
> >> > odds with specifications authors, they do seem to work well for actual
> >> > users. But then again we are not sold on AJAX either. If we were, we
> >> > would
> >> > likely be far more compelled to embrace ARIA and the like.
> >> >
> >> > Our "carousel" was just released so we are still fleshing out potential
> >> > accessibility updates. Hopefully, any tweaks we make can be as simple
> >> > as
> >> > possible :-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >>Great. We throw all this information above out for free and write the
> >>explanations for exactly that use case. There is not much sense in 40
> >>people all doing the same research and arguing results. But then again
> >>this is the impression I get of the accessibility world as a whole as
> >>otherwise we'd have much more open source products.
> >>
> >>

From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:12PM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | No next message

Jeff, I think it's the individual mail program, but not sure. I
remember months ago talking about where quoted messages occur.
~Randi

For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.