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Thread: list etiquette ? - Re: Is this slider accessible
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Keith Parks
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:27PM
Subject: list etiquette ? - Re: Is this slider accessible
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On Dec 7, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Geof Collis wrote:
> Kind of ironic that a list devoted to accessibility poses
> accessibility barriers.
And extra ironic that your message had 7 levels of quoted "junk" at
the bottom.
I'm just sayin' ;^) (wink)
Other lists I've been on have been over the "top quote" versus "bottom
quote" debate many times, usually ending with everyone doing whatever
they want. Given this lists atypical audience, is there a recommended
way to do it with accessibility in mind, other than trimming quotes
judiciously?
******************************
Keith Parks
Graphic Designer/Web Designer
Student Affairs Communications Services
San Diego State University
San Diego, CA 92182-7444
(619) 594-1046
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.sa.sdsu.edu/communications
http://kparks.deviantart.com/gallery
----------------------------------------------------------
Yes We Can!*
*should not be interpreted to mean that we necessarily will
From: John Foliot
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:39PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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Keith Parks wrote:
>
>
> Other lists I've been on have been over the "top quote" versus "bottom
> quote" debate many times, usually ending with everyone doing whatever
> they want. Given this lists atypical audience, is there a recommended
> way to do it with accessibility in mind, other than trimming quotes
> judiciously?
It has been my experience that most daily users of screen readers prefer /
tend-to-use top posting, which of course pre-supposes that the discussion
thread is top-of-mind. However, for those users, it gets them to the
current information quickly, with little to no effort. However I suspect
for those with cognitive issues this could be a significant comprehension
issue - those users would likely benefit most from inter-woven responses
placed directly after judiciously edited prior comments. True "bottom
posting", especially without prior editing is both cumbersome and tiring
for many AT users - both screen readers but at times mobility impaired
users who must scroll all the way to the bottom of a lengthy posting -
heck I get annoyed with that.
So I guess you know which one I prefer right? The inter-woven response
method requires the most amount of work to the author, but IMHO it truly
is the best option for the majority of end users - and it certainly trains
frequent contributors to be both accurate and judicious in their writing -
a happy side-benefit which results in higher quality content for all
concerned. (And if I can further pipe in - leave your fancy HTML emails
for the family - 'business' emails are best written in plain text)
Just my $0.02
JF
===========================John Foliot
Program Manager
Stanford Online Accessibility Program
http://soap.stanford.edu
Stanford University
Tel: 650-862-4603
SOAP is a program directed by the
Vice Provost for Student Affairs
============================
From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:42PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette ? - Re: Is this slider accessible
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>Hi Keith
The junk is at the bottom, I dont have to wait for JAWS to stop
saying "greater" before I think I've found the response to
the email, I dont mind sifting through a couple of lines of
"greater signs" before I find the reply, that I can live with for
those who think bottom posting is the right way to go, can they say
the same about top posting?
cheers
Geof
Editor
Accessibility News
www.accessibilitynews.ca
Accessibility News International
www.accessibilitynewsinternational.com
From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:45PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette ? - Re: Is this slider accessible
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I know for me, having the quoted messages at the top is kind of a
pain. the way my mail program works, I can just hit enter and the
message is read. So I tend to just automatically delete them when they
start off with quotes messages I've read a million times. But, I'm the
one missing out by just automatically deleting, so I suppose it's my
own preference. If it's a topic I'm interested in, or can weigh in on,
I'll suffer through listening again and again. I could interact with
the message and arrow past it all, but I get so many emails from
different lists, that this takes too much time. The other lists I'm on
that are mostly blind and visually impaired all have quoted messages
at the bottom, or not at all. I think it might be in each individual
mail program. I don't mind them at the bottom. They are there if I
need to reference them, or I can ignore.
Just my two cents, but since I'm not a very active participant, I
never make a fuss.
-Randi
I'm not disabled, my eyes are.
http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
From: deblist@suberic.net
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 5:51PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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John,
As a mobility impaired user, I agree wholeheartedly with your
statement:
> True "bottom
> posting", especially without prior editing is both cumbersome and tiring
> for many AT users - both screen readers but at times mobility impaired
> users who must scroll all the way to the bottom of a lengthy posting -
> heck I get annoyed with that.
And I prefer interwoven replies with all irrelevant material cut.
But many years of experience with email lists tells me the odds
of changing an entire list culture to this method are slim.
-deborah
From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 6:09PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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Hi Deborah
But when I first joined this list Jared pointed out the protocols
for posting but it has gone down hill on accasion, especially today.
cheers
Geof
At 07:45 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>John,
>
>As a mobility impaired user, I agree wholeheartedly with your
>statement:
>
> > True "bottom
> > posting", especially without prior editing is both cumbersome and tiring
> > for many AT users - both screen readers but at times mobility impaired
> > users who must scroll all the way to the bottom of a lengthy posting -
> > heck I get annoyed with that.
>
>And I prefer interwoven replies with all irrelevant material cut.
>But many years of experience with email lists tells me the odds
>of changing an entire list culture to this method are slim.
>
>-deborah
>
From: John Foliot
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:15PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail listserves?
Geof Collis wrote:
>
> But when I first joined this list Jared pointed out the protocols
> for posting but it has gone down hill on occasion, especially today.
>
Like when you top posted just now Geof? (LOL). I'm just sayin...
Cheers!
JF
From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:24PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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Ok I'm all bumfuddled now. top posting and bottom posting, someone
explain this? I would think top posting is above the quotes?
~Randi
In the Center of the Roof
http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:33PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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Yes. Top posting is like this email, where the quote is at the bottom and
the response is at top. Most web developers seem to prefer it, which is
fine. Some web developers get annoyed to the point of insulting others when
they encounter it. That could be a sign of a generally unhappy person,
though :-)
>From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> Ok I'm all bumfuddled now. top posting and bottom posting, someone
> explain this? I would think top posting is above the quotes?
From: Randi
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 7:48PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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Ok, thank you. I prefer top posting then. Thank you for clarifying. I
will crawl into bed now :)
~Randi
Its an adventure, said Fred.
From: Geof Collis
Date: Mon, Dec 07 2009 8:03PM
Subject: Re: list etiquette
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Geof
cheers
you mean.
Not sure what
Hi John
>Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
>
>Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Editor
Accessibility News
www.accessibilitynews.ca
Accessibility News International
www.accessibilitynewsinternational.com
From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Tue, Dec 08 2009 12:09AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
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Yes, actually that is a setting that can be changed in each email program.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
> Jeff, I think it's the individual mail program, but not sure. I
> remember months ago talking about where quoted messages occur.
> ~Randi
>
> For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.
>
>
From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Tue, Dec 08 2009 12:12AM
Subject: Re: Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
← Previous message | No next message
for the purposes of time management list serves I think it is better to
present the newest messages first as all on the list have read the older
ones when they were received as emails or in the digest format. when
presented later they can be easily deleted or referred to as the the old
ones are still there at the bottom of the post in case anyone does need to
refer to them.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
> Hi Chuck
>
> Kind of ironic that a list devoted to accessibility poses
> accessibility barriers.
>
> cheers
>
> Geof
>
>
> At 06:14 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>>I was just thinking the same. It could be quite time consuming If I
>>listened
>>to all the > signs that JAWS would read if I would let it.
>>Chuck
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Geof Collis" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:49 AM
>>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is this slider accessible to screenreader users?
>>
>>
>> > Perhaps someone could direct their energies on making this email list
>> > more accessible for us screen reader users, I'm finding I've got to
>> > do a lotof searching just to find some of your answers amongst all
>> > the greater signs.
>> >
>> > cheers
>> >
>> > Geof
>> >
>> > At 12:39 PM 12/7/2009, you wrote:
>> >>Al Sparber wrote:
>> >> > From: "Christian Heilmann" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Keith Parks wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On Dec 7, 2009, at 8:53 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Hi Randi,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Try this page and let me know if you are able to read all of the
>> >> >>>> content:
>> >> >>>>
>> >>
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/horizontal-glider/accessibility/base.htm
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>> The "Poems" tab goes to Poems, but the "Novels" tab brings you to
>> >> >>> "Movies", and the "Movies" tab goes to nowhere, in Safari at
>> >> >>> least.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> But at least it *is* keyboard navigable.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> To a degree. It is tab-able but not really usable with a keyboard.
>> >> >> The
>> >> >> cursor keys is what makes it a proper tab control.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If we want to use ARIA and we want to build interfaces that are the
>> >> >> same
>> >> >> as rich client interfaces we also have to get away from the idea of
>> >> >> tabbing as the way to access data on the web. Todd Kloots did some
>> >> >> amazing research work in this area:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://ericmiraglia.com/blog/?p=132
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The roaming tabindex for example makes sure you can access a
>> >> >> massive
>> >> >> menu without tabbing 200 times:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#focus_tabindex
>> >> >> http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2009/02/23/managing-focus/
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > To be honest, we're not completely sold on ARIA at this point in
>> >> time. It's
>> >> > interesting to view as a future solution. Our accessibility
>> >> testing group is
>> >> > small, but comprised of people who have real disabilities and we
>> >> > tend
>> >> > to
>> >> > keep things as simple as possible. While our results tend to
>> >> sometimes be at
>> >> > odds with specifications authors, they do seem to work well for
>> >> > actual
>> >> > users. But then again we are not sold on AJAX either. If we were, we
>> >> > would
>> >> > likely be far more compelled to embrace ARIA and the like.
>> >> >
>> >> > Our "carousel" was just released so we are still fleshing out
>> >> > potential
>> >> > accessibility updates. Hopefully, any tweaks we make can be as
>> >> > simple
>> >> > as
>> >> > possible :-)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>Great. We throw all this information above out for free and write the
>> >>explanations for exactly that use case. There is not much sense in 40
>> >>people all doing the same research and arguing results. But then again
>> >>this is the impression I get of the accessibility world as a whole as
>> >>otherwise we'd have much more open source products.
>> >>
>> >>