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Thread: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)
From: Lisa Halabi
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 3:48PM
Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
No previous message | Next message →
Dear All,
I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the thorny issue of
what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our Company
site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times and
thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the email below.
Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to include,
especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags as
well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
Many thanks in advance.
Lisa
Lisa Halabi
Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
www.usabilitybydesign.com
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Bunker
Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
To: Lisa Halabi
Cc: Paul Chandler
Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
Lisa,
a slight complication.
To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what can be found.
For example for the products/services button it is "Details on the products
and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
(products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have to
listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
navigating to.
Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the section,
i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to listen to but
provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the alt
text to something like "Products: For usability products and services" -
short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind users that a
quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
"Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do for
you.
Alt + 'P' to select"
Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the shortcut
key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
Any suggestions?
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 4:00PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | Next message →
Think about what it is like to listen to the alt text. You chose "Products
and Services" for the text on the button. Then "Products and services"
should be the alt text. If you want to give more information for a
mouse-over, use the title attribute for stuff like, "Details on the products
and services we offer, and what they can do for you" - but please not all
that in the alt text. See the discussion of alt text style in the web
course, http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse2.htm.
Jim
Accessibility Consulting
There's a new book on Web Accessibility. For information:
http://jimthatcher.com.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 4:48 PM
To: Webaim-Forum
Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
Dear All,
I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the thorny issue of
what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our Company
site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times and
thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the email below.
Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to include,
especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags as
well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
Many thanks in advance.
Lisa
Lisa Halabi
Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
www.usabilitybydesign.com
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Bunker
Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
To: Lisa Halabi
Cc: Paul Chandler
Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
Lisa,
a slight complication.
To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what can be found.
For example for the products/services button it is "Details on the products
and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
(products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have to
listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
navigating to.
Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the section,
i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to listen to but
provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the alt
text to something like "Products: For usability products and services" -
short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind users that a
quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
"Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do for
you.
Alt + 'P' to select"
Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the shortcut
key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
Any suggestions?
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 4:30PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | Next message →
- ALT attribute is a brief descriptive of the image... in your case
"Products and Services" or at the most "Products and Services Page". Just
as the "button" generally offers no more explanation than that to the
sighted, so too the ALT text. Trust me, the non-sighted will understand
that this is a link to the Products and Services page(s). Try to avoid
over-compensation, it could inadvertanly become offensive, almost a "dumbing
down for the blind guy". (with no offence to anyone on this list) You could
try using the title attribute, but it's support over multiple browsers is
dodgy at best.
- You know that ALL images have ALT text, even if its <..ALT="">
- If the image in question requires more explanation than as mentioned
above, move to LONGDESC and or d-links (both are external files with text
descriptions of the image in question)
As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts, why not make
a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the accessibility
features you have provided, along with a list of the keyboard shortcuts?
Trying to make the ALT text serve multiple purposes is contrary to it's
intent and actually (as you have discovered) creates as many problems as it
attempts to solve.
As always, JMHO
JF
www.bytowninternet.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: March 12, 2002 5:48 PM
> To: Webaim-Forum
> Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the
> thorny issue of
> what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our Company
> site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times and
> thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the
> email below.
> Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to include,
> especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags as
> well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
>
> The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
> Many thanks in advance.
> Lisa
>
> Lisa Halabi
> Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
> Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
> www.usabilitybydesign.com
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Bunker
> Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
> To: Lisa Halabi
> Cc: Paul Chandler
> Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> Lisa,
>
> a slight complication.
>
> To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what
> can be found.
> For example for the products/services button it is "Details on
> the products
> and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
>
> Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
> (products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have to
> listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
> navigating to.
>
> Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the section,
> i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to
> listen to but
> provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
>
> We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the alt
> text to something like "Products: For usability products and services" -
> short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
> provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
>
> However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind
> users that a
> quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
> "Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do for
> you.
>
> Alt + 'P' to select"
>
> Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the shortcut
> key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
> impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Kim Grinfeder
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 4:40PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | Next message →
"As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts, why not
make a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the
accessibility features you have provided,"
This is a good idea. I would like to learn more about keyboard shortcuts
and how to implement them is there a site I could learn more about this?
Also, I have never seen a site that has a separate page dedicated to
keyboards shortcuts, does you know a URL of where I can see an example?
And while I am writing to the list and we are talking about alt tags, I
had to remove all alt tags from images because our designer (I am a
developer) did not want them showing up when the mouse was over the
images, I replaced the alt tags with longdesc tags. Is this helpful at
all or bad form?
Thanks,
Kim
-----Original Message-----
From: John Foliot - bytown internet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:31 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
- ALT attribute is a brief descriptive of the image... in your case
"Products and Services" or at the most "Products and Services Page".
Just
as the "button" generally offers no more explanation than that to the
sighted, so too the ALT text. Trust me, the non-sighted will understand
that this is a link to the Products and Services page(s). Try to avoid
over-compensation, it could inadvertanly become offensive, almost a
"dumbing
down for the blind guy". (with no offence to anyone on this list) You
could
try using the title attribute, but it's support over multiple browsers
is
dodgy at best.
- You know that ALL images have ALT text, even if its <..ALT="">
- If the image in question requires more explanation than as mentioned
above, move to LONGDESC and or d-links (both are external files with
text
descriptions of the image in question)
As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts, why not
make
a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the accessibility
features you have provided, along with a list of the keyboard shortcuts?
Trying to make the ALT text serve multiple purposes is contrary to it's
intent and actually (as you have discovered) creates as many problems as
it
attempts to solve.
As always, JMHO
JF
www.bytowninternet.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: March 12, 2002 5:48 PM
> To: Webaim-Forum
> Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the
> thorny issue of
> what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our
Company
> site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times
and
> thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the
> email below.
> Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to
include,
> especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags
as
> well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
>
> The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
> Many thanks in advance.
> Lisa
>
> Lisa Halabi
> Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
> Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
> www.usabilitybydesign.com
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Bunker
> Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
> To: Lisa Halabi
> Cc: Paul Chandler
> Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> Lisa,
>
> a slight complication.
>
> To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what
> can be found.
> For example for the products/services button it is "Details on
> the products
> and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
>
> Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
> (products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have
to
> listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
> navigating to.
>
> Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the
section,
> i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to
> listen to but
> provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
>
> We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the
alt
> text to something like "Products: For usability products and services"
-
> short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
> provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
>
> However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind
> users that a
> quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
> "Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do
for
> you.
>
> Alt + 'P' to select"
>
> Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the
shortcut
> key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
> impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 5:04PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Kim,
For some more info on accesskeys, check out
http://www.webaccessguides.org/accessguide/question9.htm#5.
I'll let someone else answer your latest question re alt v longdesc. My
diplomacy is wearing thin <GRIN>. Is it quiting time yet?
Anyway, good on you Kim for being aware of the accessibility issues. Keep
asking questions.
Cheers,
Glenda
*********
Glenda Watson Hyatt
Soaring Eagle Communications
"Creating freedom and power through accessible communications"
E Mail: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Website: http://www.eaglecom.bc.ca
Want to know how to make your website accessible to more people?
Subscribe to our FREE newsletter by emailing
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
*********
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kim Grinfeder [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 3:40 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
>
>
> "As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts, why not
> make a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the
> accessibility features you have provided,"
>
> This is a good idea. I would like to learn more about keyboard shortcuts
> and how to implement them is there a site I could learn more about this?
> Also, I have never seen a site that has a separate page dedicated to
> keyboards shortcuts, does you know a URL of where I can see an example?
>
> And while I am writing to the list and we are talking about alt tags, I
> had to remove all alt tags from images because our designer (I am a
> developer) did not want them showing up when the mouse was over the
> images, I replaced the alt tags with longdesc tags. Is this helpful at
> all or bad form?
>
> Thanks,
> Kim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Foliot - bytown internet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:31 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
>
> - ALT attribute is a brief descriptive of the image... in your case
> "Products and Services" or at the most "Products and Services Page".
> Just
> as the "button" generally offers no more explanation than that to the
> sighted, so too the ALT text. Trust me, the non-sighted will understand
> that this is a link to the Products and Services page(s). Try to avoid
> over-compensation, it could inadvertanly become offensive, almost a
> "dumbing
> down for the blind guy". (with no offence to anyone on this list) You
> could
> try using the title attribute, but it's support over multiple browsers
> is
> dodgy at best.
>
> - You know that ALL images have ALT text, even if its <..ALT="">
>
> - If the image in question requires more explanation than as mentioned
> above, move to LONGDESC and or d-links (both are external files with
> text
> descriptions of the image in question)
>
> As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts, why not
> make
> a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the accessibility
> features you have provided, along with a list of the keyboard shortcuts?
> Trying to make the ALT text serve multiple purposes is contrary to it's
> intent and actually (as you have discovered) creates as many problems as
> it
> attempts to solve.
>
> As always, JMHO
>
> JF
> www.bytowninternet.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: March 12, 2002 5:48 PM
> > To: Webaim-Forum
> > Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the
> > thorny issue of
> > what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our
> Company
> > site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times
> and
> > thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the
> > email below.
> > Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to
> include,
> > especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags
> as
> > well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
> >
> > The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
> > Many thanks in advance.
> > Lisa
> >
> > Lisa Halabi
> > Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
> > Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
> > www.usabilitybydesign.com
> > Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary Bunker
> > Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
> > To: Lisa Halabi
> > Cc: Paul Chandler
> > Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
> >
> >
> > Lisa,
> >
> > a slight complication.
> >
> > To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what
> > can be found.
> > For example for the products/services button it is "Details on
> > the products
> > and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
> >
> > Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
> > (products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have
> to
> > listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
> > navigating to.
> >
> > Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the
> section,
> > i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to
> > listen to but
> > provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
> >
> > We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the
> alt
> > text to something like "Products: For usability products and services"
> -
> > short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
> > provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
> >
> > However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind
> > users that a
> > quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
> > "Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do
> for
> > you.
> >
> > Alt + 'P' to select"
> >
> > Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the
> shortcut
> > key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
> > impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 7:40PM
Subject: replaced the alt tags with longdesc tags (was: Complication of the alt text issue)
← Previous message | Next message →
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kim Grinfeder [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: March 12, 2002 6:40 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> And while I am writing to the list and we are talking about alt tags, I
> had to remove all alt tags from images because our designer (I am a
> developer) did not want them showing up when the mouse was over the
> images, I replaced the alt tags with longdesc tags. Is this helpful at
> all or bad form?
WHAT??????????? No no no no no no no!!!!!! (no no)
Tell your graphic designer that you'll take away the alt tags if he gives
you a black and white only web design. That way it will be equally
restrictive to everybody. ALT text is not a "nicety" to add or remove at
will, it is a very neccessary part of developing your site so that ALL
USERS, not just the blind, can access INFORMATION from your web site. Text
browsers, PDA's, heck next years toaster for all I know. How dare he
presume that what he sees (gets) is what everybody else should see (get).
Ask him if he's prepared to buy me a nice big monitor like he has too, so
that I can "experience" all of his vision exactly as he sees it at his desk.
Now if it's the infamous "spacer.gif" (and yes, I still will use them...
because) or some equally useless imagery, then it's <..ALT="">. That way
there is no "tool tip". But if the image conveys real information important
to the overall web page, then put those ALT tags back in and go fight it out
with the designer and the boss, and tell the boss that there are compelling
reasons why you should win, and if you can't think of them all then call me
and I'll tell him. (you can always drop the words "customer service" and
"lawsuit"... either usually gets a response)
Everybody, repeat after me... "web sites are DEVELOPED, not designed..."
"web sites are DEVELOPED, not designed"
JF (grumpy)
www.bytowninternet.com
> Thanks,
> Kim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Foliot - bytown internet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:31 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
>
> - ALT attribute is a brief descriptive of the image... in your case
> "Products and Services" or at the most "Products and Services Page".
> Just
> as the "button" generally offers no more explanation than that to the
> sighted, so too the ALT text. Trust me, the non-sighted will understand
> that this is a link to the Products and Services page(s). Try to avoid
> over-compensation, it could inadvertanly become offensive, almost a
> "dumbing
> down for the blind guy". (with no offence to anyone on this list) You
> could
> try using the title attribute, but it's support over multiple browsers
> is
> dodgy at best.
>
> - You know that ALL images have ALT text, even if its <..ALT="">
>
> - If the image in question requires more explanation than as mentioned
> above, move to LONGDESC and or d-links (both are external files with
> text
> descriptions of the image in question)
>
> As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts, why not
> make
> a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the accessibility
> features you have provided, along with a list of the keyboard shortcuts?
> Trying to make the ALT text serve multiple purposes is contrary to it's
> intent and actually (as you have discovered) creates as many problems as
> it
> attempts to solve.
>
> As always, JMHO
>
> JF
> www.bytowninternet.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: March 12, 2002 5:48 PM
> > To: Webaim-Forum
> > Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the
> > thorny issue of
> > what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our
> Company
> > site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times
> and
> > thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the
> > email below.
> > Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to
> include,
> > especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags
> as
> > well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
> >
> > The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
> > Many thanks in advance.
> > Lisa
> >
> > Lisa Halabi
> > Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
> > Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
> > www.usabilitybydesign.com
> > Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary Bunker
> > Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
> > To: Lisa Halabi
> > Cc: Paul Chandler
> > Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
> >
> >
> > Lisa,
> >
> > a slight complication.
> >
> > To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what
> > can be found.
> > For example for the products/services button it is "Details on
> > the products
> > and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
> >
> > Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
> > (products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have
> to
> > listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
> > navigating to.
> >
> > Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the
> section,
> > i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to
> > listen to but
> > provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
> >
> > We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the
> alt
> > text to something like "Products: For usability products and services"
> -
> > short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
> > provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
> >
> > However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind
> > users that a
> > quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
> > "Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do
> for
> > you.
> >
> > Alt + 'P' to select"
> >
> > Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the
> shortcut
> > key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
> > impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
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> >
> >
>
>
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From: Kristin Evenson Hirst
Date: Wed, Mar 13 2002 7:17AM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
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At 06:40 PM 3/12/02 -0500, Kim Grinfeder < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>And while I am writing to the list and we are talking about alt tags, I
>had to remove all alt tags from images because our designer (I am a
>developer) did not want them showing up when the mouse was over the
>images, I replaced the alt tags with longdesc tags. Is this helpful at
>all or bad form?
Your designer should go back to and stick to print, where one can totally
control the final image. Web pages are developed, not designed, and the
best one can do about appearance is to suggest it. If your designer gets
all huffy, try running a few of his pages through an HTML validator --
http://validator.w3.org/ -- and ask questions like
Why are there four references to an external stylesheet (with the first two
being invalid)?
<LINK href="ubd.css" type=text/css rel=stylesheet>
<LINK href="Untitled Document_files/ubd.css" type=text/css rel=stylesheet>
<link rel="stylesheet" href="ubd.css" type="text/css">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="ubd.css" type="text/css">
Why specify font color repeatedly when there's a stylesheet that could be used?
See http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/alt/alt-text.html for a useful
discussion of ALT text.
See also
Web Pages aren't Printed on Paper
Or how I gave up trying to "control" web pages and discovered adaptability
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/not_paper/index.html
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From: iris
Date: Wed, Mar 13 2002 4:07PM
Subject: Re: replaced the alt tags with longdesc tags (was: Complication of the alt text issue)
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--- John Foliot - bytown internet
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Now if it's the infamous "spacer.gif" (and yes, I
> still will use them...
> because) or some equally useless imagery, then it's
> <..ALT="">. That way
> there is no "tool tip". But if the image conveys
> real information important
> to the overall web page, then put those ALT tags
> back in and go fight it out
<snip>
don't forget that the alt attribute is not actually
meant to pop up. it is not meant as a tool tip.
that's the title attribute. unfortunately this is
only done correctly in the latest standard compliant
browsers. but we have to think about forward
compatibility too.
also, just how difficult is it to move the mouse away
from the image again? i don't really understand what
the fuss is about. users know by now that if they
want additional information they should hover their
mouse over the image.
and such additional information should be provided by
the title attribute.
title = tooltip = additional
alt = alternative = instead of image
iris
download the latest mozilla build
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