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Thread: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
Number of posts in this thread: 5 (In chronological order)
From: Kilcommons,Cath
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 5:14PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
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Regarding using ALT and TITLE- remember that in IE, ALT will be displayed as a "tool tip" and TITLE will be read by JAWS (3.7 & 4.0)-- can't generalize that behavior to other browsers and screen readers, but that is how those two work.
Regards,
Cath
Cath Stager- Kilcommons
Assistive Technology Support and
Web Accessibility Coordinator
Assistive Technology Resource Center
<http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/ATRC>;
Colorado State University
970-491-6258
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
-----Original Message-----
From: John Foliot - bytown internet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 5:31 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
- ALT attribute is a brief descriptive of the image... in your case
"Products and Services" or at the most "Products and Services Page". Just
as the "button" generally offers no more explanation than that to the
sighted, so too the ALT text. Trust me, the non-sighted will understand
that this is a link to the Products and Services page(s). Try to avoid
over-compensation, it could inadvertanly become offensive, almost a "dumbing
down for the blind guy". (with no offence to anyone on this list) You could
try using the title attribute, but it's support over multiple browsers is
dodgy at best.
- You know that ALL images have ALT text, even if its <..ALT="">
- If the image in question requires more explanation than as mentioned
above, move to LONGDESC and or d-links (both are external files with text
descriptions of the image in question)
As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts, why not make
a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the accessibility
features you have provided, along with a list of the keyboard shortcuts?
Trying to make the ALT text serve multiple purposes is contrary to it's
intent and actually (as you have discovered) creates as many problems as it
attempts to solve.
As always, JMHO
JF
www.bytowninternet.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: March 12, 2002 5:48 PM
> To: Webaim-Forum
> Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> Dear All,
>
> I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the
> thorny issue of
> what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our Company
> site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times and
> thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the
> email below.
> Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to include,
> especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags as
> well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
>
> The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
> Many thanks in advance.
> Lisa
>
> Lisa Halabi
> Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
> Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
> www.usabilitybydesign.com
> Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Bunker
> Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
> To: Lisa Halabi
> Cc: Paul Chandler
> Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> Lisa,
>
> a slight complication.
>
> To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what
> can be found.
> For example for the products/services button it is "Details on
> the products
> and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
>
> Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
> (products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have to
> listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
> navigating to.
>
> Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the section,
> i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to
> listen to but
> provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
>
> We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the alt
> text to something like "Products: For usability products and services" -
> short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
> provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
>
> However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind
> users that a
> quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
> "Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do for
> you.
>
> Alt + 'P' to select"
>
> Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the shortcut
> key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
> impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
----
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Tue, Mar 12 2002 7:10PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | Next message →
Actually, in IE 6 the Title overrides the Alt text as the "tool tip"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kilcommons,Cath [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: March 12, 2002 7:15 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> Regarding using ALT and TITLE- remember that in IE, ALT will be
> displayed as a "tool tip" and TITLE will be read by JAWS (3.7 &
> 4.0)-- can't generalize that behavior to other browsers and
> screen readers, but that is how those two work.
>
> Regards,
> Cath
>
> Cath Stager- Kilcommons
> Assistive Technology Support and
> Web Accessibility Coordinator
> Assistive Technology Resource Center
> <http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/ATRC>;
> Colorado State University
> 970-491-6258
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Foliot - bytown internet [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 5:31 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
>
>
> - ALT attribute is a brief descriptive of the image... in your case
> "Products and Services" or at the most "Products and Services Page". Just
> as the "button" generally offers no more explanation than that to the
> sighted, so too the ALT text. Trust me, the non-sighted will understand
> that this is a link to the Products and Services page(s). Try to avoid
> over-compensation, it could inadvertanly become offensive, almost
> a "dumbing
> down for the blind guy". (with no offence to anyone on this list)
> You could
> try using the title attribute, but it's support over multiple browsers is
> dodgy at best.
>
> - You know that ALL images have ALT text, even if its <..ALT="">
>
> - If the image in question requires more explanation than as mentioned
> above, move to LONGDESC and or d-links (both are external files with text
> descriptions of the image in question)
>
> As for accessiblity "enhancements" such as keyboard short cuts,
> why not make
> a seperate page within your site which outlines all of the accessibility
> features you have provided, along with a list of the keyboard shortcuts?
> Trying to make the ALT text serve multiple purposes is contrary to it's
> intent and actually (as you have discovered) creates as many
> problems as it
> attempts to solve.
>
> As always, JMHO
>
> JF
> www.bytowninternet.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > Sent: March 12, 2002 5:48 PM
> > To: Webaim-Forum
> > Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
> >
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the
> > thorny issue of
> > what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make
> our Company
> > site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless
> times and
> > thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the
> > email below.
> > Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail
> to include,
> > especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags as
> > well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
> >
> > The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
> > Many thanks in advance.
> > Lisa
> >
> > Lisa Halabi
> > Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
> > Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
> > www.usabilitybydesign.com
> > Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gary Bunker
> > Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
> > To: Lisa Halabi
> > Cc: Paul Chandler
> > Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
> >
> >
> > Lisa,
> >
> > a slight complication.
> >
> > To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what
> > can be found.
> > For example for the products/services button it is "Details on
> > the products
> > and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
> >
> > Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
> > (products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have to
> > listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
> > navigating to.
> >
> > Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of
> the section,
> > i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to
> > listen to but
> > provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
> >
> > We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the alt
> > text to something like "Products: For usability products and services" -
> > short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
> > provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
> >
> > However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind
> > users that a
> > quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
> > "Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do for
> > you.
> >
> > Alt + 'P' to select"
> >
> > Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose
> the shortcut
> > key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
> > impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Thu, Mar 14 2002 11:49AM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | Next message →
Lisa,
To build further upon Jim's thoughts, my understanding of voice recognition
is that it uses the information in the ALT text as well. So, the ALT text
should reflect the stylised text in the graphic to help people using voice
recognition as well.
Tim
Tim Harshbarger
State Farm Insurance Companies
Phone: (309) 766-0154
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 4:14 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
Many thanks for your feedback Jim.
Much appreciated.
Lisa Halabi
Senior Usability Consultant
Usability by Design Ltd. London
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.UsabilityByDesign.com
Office: +44 (0)20 8938 6755
Mobile: +44 (0)7956 280 447
Fax: +44 (0)7092 080 153
[Opinions expressed are my own, not necessarily those of my employer]
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----------------- Original message follows -----------------
Date: 12/03/2002 - 11:00 p.m. (UTC)
From: Jim Thatcher < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
Think about what it is like to listen to the alt text. You chose "Products
and Services" for the text on the button. Then "Products and services"
should be the alt text. If you want to give more information for a
mouse-over, use the title attribute for stuff like, "Details on the products
and services we offer, and what they can do for you" - but please not all
that in the alt text. See the discussion of alt text style in the web
course, http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse2.htm .
Jim
Accessibility Consulting
There's a new book on Web Accessibility. For information:
http://jimthatcher.com .
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Halabi [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 4:48 PM
To: Webaim-Forum
Subject: FW: Complication of the alt text issue
Dear All,
I'm having difficulties trying to help a colleague solve the thorny issue of
what to put on Alt tags as part of a massive redesign to make our Company
site ultra accessible. I've seen this issue discussed countless times and
thought it was all clear and simple, but not so! Please see the email below.
Basically, we can't decide on the appropriate level of detail to include,
especially as we want to show the keyboard short cuts in the Alt tags as
well. I'd appreciate any comments you might have.
The url to the site is www.usabilitybydesign.com
Many thanks in advance.
Lisa
Lisa Halabi
Senior Usability & Accessibility Consultant
Events Coordinator - UK Usability Professionals Assoc.
www.usabilitybydesign.com
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Tel: +44 (0)7956 280 447
-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Bunker
Sent: 12 March 2002 15:16
To: Lisa Halabi
Cc: Paul Chandler
Subject: Complication of the alt text issue
Lisa,
a slight complication.
To sum up, current alt text is in a long form, explaining what can be found.
For example for the products/services button it is "Details on the products
and services we offer, and what they can do for you"
Problem being that they don't provide the actual name of the button
(products and services) and are quite long, so that blind users have to
listen to the entire alt text and then decide which section they are
navigating to.
Your initial proposal was to shorten them to just the name of the section,
i.e. "Products and services" - however that makes it easier to listen to but
provides no feedback on the content of the section being visited.
We had come to an agreement that the best approach is to shorten the alt
text to something like "Products: For usability products and services" -
short enough not to be too annoying to blind users but long enough to
provide some hint to sighted users of the content to be found.
However, we also currently use the alt text to explain to blind users that a
quick key is available. So the current alt text is actually
"Details on the products and services we offer, and what they can do for
you.
Alt + 'P' to select"
Obviously if we go with the solution we just proposed we lose the shortcut
key information - making it much harder for both sighted and visually
impaired users to learn those shortcuts.
Any suggestions?
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
----
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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Leo Smith
Date: Thu, Mar 14 2002 12:05PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | Next message →
Therefore allowing you to provide alt text that doesn't show up as a
tooltip in IE6 if the designer is *so* against that:
<img src="image.gif" width="180" height="39" alt="nothing will
show as a tooltip in IE6" title="">
Of course, this doesn't then allow you to use the title attribute for
useful content, as it must remain empty.
Leo.
On 12 Mar 2002, at 21:10, John Foliot - bytown internet wrote:
> Actually, in IE 6 the Title overrides the Alt text as the "tool tip"
Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774
----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
From: Mark Rew
Date: Thu, Mar 14 2002 12:23PM
Subject: Re: Complication of the alt text issue
← Previous message | No next message
I hope I'm not missing the point here with my following comments.
If an alt tag is empty (alt=" ") some type of color, yellow, or highlight
shows on the screen when the mouse is moved over the graphic? Well if the alt
tag is null (alt="") nothing should appear on the screen, but screen readers
will skip the graphic without trying to say the graphic file address.
I started out advising my developers to use NULL alt tags until a sighted
person told me there was value in using the empty alt tag to track when the
mouse is moving over the graphic.
Mark Rew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Smith" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: Complication of the alt text issue
> Therefore allowing you to provide alt text that doesn't show up as a
> tooltip in IE6 if the designer is *so* against that:
>
> <img src="image.gif" width="180" height="39" alt="nothing will
> show as a tooltip in IE6" title="">
>
> Of course, this doesn't then allow you to use the title attribute for
> useful content, as it must remain empty.
>
> Leo.
>
> On 12 Mar 2002, at 21:10, John Foliot - bytown internet wrote:
>
> > Actually, in IE 6 the Title overrides the Alt text as the "tool tip"
>
>
>
> Leo Smith
> Web Designer/Developer
> USM Office of Publications and Marketing
> University of Southern Maine
> 207-780-4774
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
----
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visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/