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Thread: Re: Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Tue, Oct 05 2010 9:51PM
Subject: Re: Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
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Better yet. Why not send those subsidies to opensource AT developers so that people around the world can have Free access to quality assistive technology?
Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca
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On 2010-10-05, at 11:38 PM, Bevi Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
> I often wonder if a two-pronged approached to accessibility might give the
> best results for all stakeholders, both A.T. users and those of us who
> develop information technology products (websites, office documents, PDFs,
> multimedia, etc.).
>
> First prong is, of course, what we discuss here: making our websites and
> other information accessible to A.T. users.
>
> But what if government grants or other funding could go directly to A.T.
> users to subsidize their technologies?
>
> As a teacher and developer with many clients, family members, and friends
> with various disabilities, I run into 2 situations that undermine my best
> efforts to make my products accessible:
>
> 1) Most of the disabled people I know do not have the money to keep their
> software and hardware A.T. up to date, and therefore, don't have the best
> tools for their needs.
>
> 2) Most of them also haven't had sufficient training in how to use the A.T.
> that they do have, so they end up stumbling through a website that actually
> is accessible.
>
> Here in the U.S., for example, our Medicare program subsidizes wheelchairs
> and motorized scooters for our disabled citizens.
>
> Why can't we have a similar program of subsidies for computer A.T. too? That
> sure would make my developer life a lot easier! <grin>
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
> : : : : : : : : : : : : :
> Bevi Chagnon | PubCom | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | 301-585-8805
> Government publishing specialists, trainers, consultants | print, press,
> web, Acrobat PDF & 508
> Online at the blog: It's 2010. Where's your career heading?
> www.pubcom.com/newsletter
>
>
From: Denis Boudreau
Date: Tue, Oct 05 2010 10:06PM
Subject: Re: The cost of accessibility
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Hi Lon,
On 2010-10-05, at 8:18 PM, Waltenberger, Lon (LNI) wrote:
> US Dept of Justice (they, along with at least the Dept of Education, administer the ADA) expects websites to be tested at least annually by people with disabilities. DoJ responds to complaints and self-initiates inspections through it's Project Civic Access. See http://www.ada.gov/civicfac.htm.
This is great, but is this enforced in any way? Is there any kind of accountability related to this?
> 1. WEB-BASED SERVICES AND PROGRAMS
> E. Periodically (at least annually) enlist people with disabilities to test its pages for ease of use.
I think it's awesome that point E. found it's way into this document. But again, is this enforced in any way? I would hope so, otherwise, I'm afraid most organization wouldn't bother with it.
> And from the settlement with McNeese State University, USA: http://www.ada.gov/mcneese.htm
>
> 24. Modifications to the University´s Web Site:
> 5. Periodically (at least annually) enlist people with disabilities to test its pages for ease of use.
Same concern here.
Thanks. I will definitely try to get something like this in our standards. It's a fantastic idea.
/Denis
From: Denis Boudreau
Date: Tue, Oct 05 2010 10:12PM
Subject: Re: Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
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Hi Everett,
On 2010-10-05, at 11:47 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:
> Better yet. Why not send those subsidies to opensource AT developers so that people around the world can have Free access to quality assistive technology?
This is exactly what I thought. It's hard to upgrade and maintain some of the tools made available like Jaws, but others are free and are becoming increasingly usable as versions come out. Yes, I'm pointing at you NVDA! <grin>
That being said, I work closely with people who have visual disabilities and as it turns out, most of them are reluctant to go from Jaws to NVDA because old habits die hard.
/Denis
From: Denis Boudreau
Date: Tue, Oct 05 2010 10:33PM
Subject: Re: The cost of accessibility
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Hi Iza,
On 2010-10-05, at 8:57 PM, Iza Bartosiewicz wrote:
> Hi Denis,
>
> Looks like you've started a very interesting discussion! :)
Thank, you, thank you. <grin>
> It may be worth getting in touch with Mike Davies [1], who worked on redevelopment of Legal & General (UK) website. That site became 'famous' few years ago for generating a considerable ROI from accessibility improvements, so Mike should know about the costs involved in making this happen.
An interesting idea, yes.
I had read about the case a while back, but never thought of contacting Mike to check that out.
It's certainly worth looking into. Thanks.
> His presentation about this project [2] might be of interest to you too. One thing that caught my eye was his statement that accessibility improvements focussed 'Particularly [on] the use of simple language' (the good old checkpoint 14.1), with great benefits. It is unfortunate then that WCAG 2.0 made this requirement optional. I brought this up, because any 'fully-skilled and experienced' team should include web developers as well as web writers (as Dey Alexander aptly put it: "Don't forget the 'C' in WCAG" [3]).
>
> The Legal & General website project was also discussed by MicroAngelo [4] and on Accessify Forum [5].
>
> Are you also considering the ongoing costs of maintaining accessible website?
Yes, we are considering this as well, but it's way too soon to conclude on anything at this point.
We've asked government organizations to evaluate the costs of accessibility: most tend to overestimate the costs and underestimate the benefits. A perfectly human reaction I guess.
/Denis
>
> [1] http://www.isolani.co.uk/
> [2] http://www.isolani.co.uk/presentations/wsg/wsg-webaccessibility.pdf
> [3] http://www.deyalexander.com.au/blog/2009/12/a-resolution-for-the-new-year-dont-forget-the-c-in-wcag/
> [4] http://www.microangelo.co.uk/2006/apr/news/pas78.php
> [5] http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4798
>
> cheers
>
> Iza Bartosiewicz
> www.linkedin.com/in/izabartosiewicz
> twitter.com/mr0wka18
From: Waltenberger, Lon (LNI)
Date: Wed, Oct 06 2010 1:30PM
Subject: Re: The cost of accessibility
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Hi Denis,
At http://www.ada.gov/mcneese.htm, see Jurisdiction, Section B Paragraph 9:
"...the United States agrees to refrain from filing civil suit in this matter during the term of this Agreement, except as provided in Section D below."
Section D Enforcement and Reporting clearly outlines requirements and timelines for reporting back to DoJ.
Hope this helps.
From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Wed, Oct 06 2010 2:18PM
Subject: Re: Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
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As a screen reader I can only say don't get too excited yet as NVDA
while being able to perform basic functions cannot do all the complex
functions that advanced computer users need from a screen reader. I'm not
sure how effective it is when dealing with inaccessible flash content that
is all in an image format.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denis Boudreau" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
> Hi Everett,
>
> On 2010-10-05, at 11:47 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:
>
>> Better yet. Why not send those subsidies to opensource AT developers so
>> that people around the world can have Free access to quality assistive
>> technology?
>
> This is exactly what I thought. It's hard to upgrade and maintain some of
> the tools made available like Jaws, but others are free and are becoming
> increasingly usable as versions come out. Yes, I'm pointing at you NVDA!
> <grin>
>
> That being said, I work closely with people who have visual disabilities
> and as it turns out, most of them are reluctant to go from Jaws to NVDA
> because old habits die hard.
>
> /Denis
>
From: E.J. Zufelt
Date: Wed, Oct 06 2010 10:42PM
Subject: Re: Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
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I'm not sure how well any screen-reader works with "inaccessible Flash content". There are definitely many areas in which NVDA could improve. Let's get the government subsidies flowing to NV Access so that it can happen :)
That being said, I use NVDA almost every day to assist me in places where JAWS fails hard, like working with Firebug.
HTH,
Everett Zufelt
http://zufelt.ca
Follow me on Twitter
http://twitter.com/ezufelt
View my LinkedIn Profile
http://www.linkedin.com/in/ezufelt
On 2010-10-07, at 12:36 AM, Jeevan Reddy wrote:
> Hello chuck,
> NVDA is pretty much similar to Commercial Screen Readers as for as Web is
> concerned.
> it may have some Accessibility problems in Desk top Applications, it'll work
> well with internet and
> work equally with commercial Screen Readers.
>
> REgards,
> Jeevan
>
> On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:47 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> As a screen reader I can only say don't get too excited yet as NVDA
>> while being able to perform basic functions cannot do all the complex
>> functions that advanced computer users need from a screen reader. I'm not
>> sure how effective it is when dealing with inaccessible flash content that
>> is all in an image format.
>> Chuck
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Denis Boudreau" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
>>
>>
>>> Hi Everett,
>>>
>>> On 2010-10-05, at 11:47 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Better yet. Why not send those subsidies to opensource AT developers so
>>>> that people around the world can have Free access to quality assistive
>>>> technology?
>>>
>>> This is exactly what I thought. It's hard to upgrade and maintain some of
>>> the tools made available like Jaws, but others are free and are becoming
>>> increasingly usable as versions come out. Yes, I'm pointing at you NVDA!
>>> <grin>
>>>
>>> That being said, I work closely with people who have visual disabilities
>>> and as it turns out, most of them are reluctant to go from Jaws to NVDA
>>> because old habits die hard.
>>>
>>> /Denis
>>>
From: Jeevan Reddy
Date: Wed, Oct 06 2010 10:48PM
Subject: Re: Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello chuck,
NVDA is pretty much similar to Commercial Screen Readers as for as Web is
concerned.
it may have some Accessibility problems in Desk top Applications, it'll work
well with internet and
work equally with commercial Screen Readers.
REgards,
Jeevan
On Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:47 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> As a screen reader I can only say don't get too excited yet as NVDA
> while being able to perform basic functions cannot do all the complex
> functions that advanced computer users need from a screen reader. I'm not
> sure how effective it is when dealing with inaccessible flash content that
> is all in an image format.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Denis Boudreau" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
>
>
> > Hi Everett,
> >
> > On 2010-10-05, at 11:47 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:
> >
> >> Better yet. Why not send those subsidies to opensource AT developers so
> >> that people around the world can have Free access to quality assistive
> >> technology?
> >
> > This is exactly what I thought. It's hard to upgrade and maintain some of
> > the tools made available like Jaws, but others are free and are becoming
> > increasingly usable as versions come out. Yes, I'm pointing at you NVDA!
> > <grin>
> >
> > That being said, I work closely with people who have visual disabilities
> > and as it turns out, most of them are reluctant to go from Jaws to NVDA
> > because old habits die hard.
> >
> > /Denis
> >
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Thu, Oct 07 2010 5:57AM
Subject: Re: Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
← Previous message | No next message
> As a screen reader I can only say don't get too excited yet as NVDA
> while being able to perform basic functions cannot do all the complex
> functions that advanced computer users need from a screen reader. I'm not
> sure how effective it is when dealing with inaccessible flash content that
> is all in an image format.
> Chuck
Chuck,
Flash might be offered as an image, but so might content be delivered via an image in HTML. Most Flash content doesn't do this, and instead exposes the text in the Flash content via he MSAA accessibility API. This is limited to Windows, but for Windows screen readers such as JAW, Window-Eyes, HAL, and NVDA, the text is there to be read.
The difference between "accessible Flash" and "inaccessible flash" is whether the author pays attention to labeling form controls, controls the tab order, controls the reading order, adds image equivalents, considers color contrast, provide captions/subtitles, and other items that are necessary for the content to work well with assistive technologies and meet other user needs.
AWK
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Denis Boudreau" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Government subsidies, was The cost of accessibility
>
>
> > Hi Everett,
> >
> > On 2010-10-05, at 11:47 PM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:
> >
> >> Better yet. Why not send those subsidies to opensource AT developers so
> >> that people around the world can have Free access to quality assistive
> >> technology?
> >
> > This is exactly what I thought. It's hard to upgrade and maintain some of
> > the tools made available like Jaws, but others are free and are becoming
> > increasingly usable as versions come out. Yes, I'm pointing at you NVDA!
> > <grin>
> >
> > That being said, I work closely with people who have visual disabilities
> > and as it turns out, most of them are reluctant to go from Jaws to NVDA
> > because old habits die hard.
> >
> > /Denis
> >