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Thread: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)
From: adam solomon
Date: Tue, Dec 07 2010 5:30AM
Subject: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
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Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the solution?
--
adam solomon
linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
From: adam solomon
Date: Tue, Dec 07 2010 5:36AM
Subject: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the solution?
--
adam solomon
linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
From: Al Sparber
Date: Tue, Dec 07 2010 7:00AM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
On 12/7/2010 7:27 AM, adam solomon wrote:
> Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
> To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
> because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
> If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the solution?
>
I assume you are referring to a hierarchical or drop-down/fly out menu.
There are many schools of thought on this. Based on our tests, once a
user gets to a web page menu, traditional application UI conventions are
not considered. That is, the majority of keyboard users in our tests do
not even realize that arrow keys are working. The only people, in our
opinion, who favor arrow keys are able-bodied web designers and
accessibility consultants :-)
The simplest, most direct way to handle this is to hide the sub-menus
from reader and keyboard users, activate the root links, and carry all
links in the context of the page.
There are many other approaches that can be accessible as well - and now
one also has to consider touch devices.
You'll get a baker's dozen different opinions on this list. Some will be
good, others not. Your job is to assess them all and see which one makes
most sense to you and then liver with it - or not :-)
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel
From: deborah.kaplan
Date: Tue, Dec 07 2010 8:21AM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
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On Tue, 7 Dec 2010, Al Sparber wrote:
> That is, the majority of keyboard users in our tests do
> not even realize that arrow keys are working. The only people, in our
> opinion, who favor arrow keys are able-bodied web designers and
> accessibility consultants :-)
...
> You'll get a baker's dozen different opinions on this list. Some will be
> good, others not. Your job is to assess them all and see which one makes
> most sense to you and then liver with it - or not :-)
Indeed. If you look through the archives you will see that many
of the people on this list who favor arrow keys are web users with
disabilities and their clients with disabilities. :-) So yes,
there are many schools of thought, and everybody's use cases
reveal different answers on the question of arrow keys, keyboard
use, and fly out menus.
In other words, if at all possible, design for your users.
-deborah
From: Jeevan Reddy
Date: Wed, Dec 08 2010 2:00AM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
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Hello Adam,
Can you Access the Menu items in the desk top applications only with
"Tab" key?
Certainly you need to use "Tab" key to jump between menus, and Arrow keys
help you to navigate between menu items which is currently in Focus.
The same is applicable to Rich internet application Menu.
For example if you are having hundred navigation links, Certainly you don't
put all these links in the navigation, you'll catagorise them and place them
in a Menu format.
Now coming to Keyboard accessibility, when a user wants to Access the Third
menu in the serial, he needs to use tab so many times.If you make the same
similar to desk top, the user can get that with 3 tabs, and he can navigate
the menu items using arrow keys.
Now coming to JAWS 9.0 issue, it has lack of ARIA support(the techniques
used to make rich internet applications Accessible).
Thanks and Regards,
Jeevan
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:57 PM, adam solomon
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
> To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
> because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
> If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the
> solution?
>
> --
> adam solomon
> linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
> blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
>
From: adam solomon
Date: Wed, Dec 08 2010 3:15PM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
Thank you for all the replies. I agree with Jeevan that it is very
inconvenient to have to tab through a complex menu. On the other hand, ARIA
is still a draft, and is not supported by IE browsers many people are still
using. JAWS support is limited as you mentioned. In our case, the
development team needs accessibility approval of a menu which does not
support arrow key navigation. I don't feel that I can veto this on the
grounds that it does not comply with wcag. I have made it clear to them that
arrow key navigation is important to have, but not a deal breaker. No
filibuster on this one!
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Jeevan Reddy < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> Hello Adam,
> Can you Access the Menu items in the desk top applications only with
> "Tab" key?
> Certainly you need to use "Tab" key to jump between menus, and Arrow keys
> help you to navigate between menu items which is currently in Focus.
> The same is applicable to Rich internet application Menu.
> For example if you are having hundred navigation links, Certainly you don't
> put all these links in the navigation, you'll catagorise them and place
> them
> in a Menu format.
> Now coming to Keyboard accessibility, when a user wants to Access the Third
> menu in the serial, he needs to use tab so many times.If you make the same
> similar to desk top, the user can get that with 3 tabs, and he can navigate
> the menu items using arrow keys.
>
> Now coming to JAWS 9.0 issue, it has lack of ARIA support(the techniques
> used to make rich internet applications Accessible).
> Thanks and Regards,
> Jeevan
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:57 PM, adam solomon
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
> > Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
> > To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
> > because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm
> wrong).
> > If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the
> > solution?
> >
> > --
> > adam solomon
> > linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
> > blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
> >
From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Wed, Dec 08 2010 4:36PM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
Adam, this sounds a lot like an issue we (mostly others; I did *some* advising and reviewing) solved with Drupal, the open-source content management system. We were dealing with arrow-key navigation through a series of "vertical tabs" -- labeled tabs down the left edge of the screen; clicking a tab revealed that tab's panel.
I don't know if an outsider would be able to follow the discussion, but in case it's helpful, you can find it at http://drupal.org/node/467296
FWIW.
Cliff
Cliff Tyllick
Usability assessment coordinator
Agency Communications Division
Texas Commission on Environmental Quality
512-239-4516
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> On 12/8/2010 at 4:15 PM, in message < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >, adam solomon < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Thank you for all the replies. I agree with Jeevan that it is very
inconvenient to have to tab through a complex menu. On the other hand, ARIA
is still a draft, and is not supported by IE browsers many people are still
using. JAWS support is limited as you mentioned. In our case, the
development team needs accessibility approval of a menu which does not
support arrow key navigation. I don't feel that I can veto this on the
grounds that it does not comply with wcag. I have made it clear to them that
arrow key navigation is important to have, but not a deal breaker. No
filibuster on this one!
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Jeevan Reddy < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> Hello Adam,
> Can you Access the Menu items in the desk top applications only with
> "Tab" key?
> Certainly you need to use "Tab" key to jump between menus, and Arrow keys
> help you to navigate between menu items which is currently in Focus.
> The same is applicable to Rich internet application Menu.
> For example if you are having hundred navigation links, Certainly you don't
> put all these links in the navigation, you'll catagorise them and place
> them
> in a Menu format.
> Now coming to Keyboard accessibility, when a user wants to Access the Third
> menu in the serial, he needs to use tab so many times.If you make the same
> similar to desk top, the user can get that with 3 tabs, and he can navigate
> the menu items using arrow keys.
>
> Now coming to JAWS 9.0 issue, it has lack of ARIA support(the techniques
> used to make rich internet applications Accessible).
> Thanks and Regards,
> Jeevan
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:57 PM, adam solomon
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
> > Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
> > To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
> > because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm
> wrong).
> > If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the
> > solution?
> >
> > --
> > adam solomon
> > linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
> > blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
> >
From: ckrugman
Date: Tue, Dec 14 2010 10:42PM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
on later versions of JAWS there is a pass through key where any key that is
used to perform a JAWS function can be bypassed to perform another function
in a particular program. The arrow keys can perform many functions as
needed.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "adam solomon" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 4:27 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] arrow key navigation in accessible menu
> Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
> To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
> because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm
> wrong).
> If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the
> solution?
>
> --
> adam solomon
> linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
> blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
>
From: ckrugman
Date: Tue, Dec 14 2010 10:54PM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
that's interesting because JAWS encourages users to use arrow keys when
coming across dropdown menus and there is a keyboard command to open such
menus.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Sparber" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arrow key navigation in accessible menu
> On 12/7/2010 7:27 AM, adam solomon wrote:
>> Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
>> To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
>> because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm
>> wrong).
>> If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the
>> solution?
>>
>
> I assume you are referring to a hierarchical or drop-down/fly out menu.
>
> There are many schools of thought on this. Based on our tests, once a
> user gets to a web page menu, traditional application UI conventions are
> not considered. That is, the majority of keyboard users in our tests do
> not even realize that arrow keys are working. The only people, in our
> opinion, who favor arrow keys are able-bodied web designers and
> accessibility consultants :-)
>
> The simplest, most direct way to handle this is to hide the sub-menus
> from reader and keyboard users, activate the root links, and carry all
> links in the context of the page.
>
> There are many other approaches that can be accessible as well - and now
> one also has to consider touch devices.
>
> You'll get a baker's dozen different opinions on this list. Some will be
> good, others not. Your job is to assess them all and see which one makes
> most sense to you and then liver with it - or not :-)
>
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
> Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
> http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
> The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel
>
From: William Lawrence
Date: Tue, Dec 14 2010 11:06PM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
Along with the different schools of thought, Roger Hudson wrote a
crafty article about three different options:
http://www.dingoaccess.com/accessibility/accessing-nav-drop-downs/
Cheers!
William
--
William Lawrence
Accessibility Engineer
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 7:27 AM, adam solomon
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
> To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
> because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm wrong).
> If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the solution?
>
> --
> adam solomon
> linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
> blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Tue, Dec 14 2010 11:18PM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
On 12/15/2010 12:51 AM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> that's interesting because JAWS encourages users to use arrow keys when
> coming across dropdown menus and there is a keyboard command to open such
> menus.
I think you might be referring to operating system drop-down menus. In
my opinion, the cacophony of opinions - even those of perceived experts
in the field - do not stand up to logic. Fact is, any CSS or
script-based menu can be made accessible if the web designer knows what
he or she is doing - and it's ridiculously easy.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel
From: ckrugman
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2010 1:39AM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
Jaws 9.0 probably shouldn't be used as a basis for testing as it is an
obsolete version.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeevan Reddy" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arrow key navigation in accessible menu
> Hello Adam,
> Can you Access the Menu items in the desk top applications only with
> "Tab" key?
> Certainly you need to use "Tab" key to jump between menus, and Arrow keys
> help you to navigate between menu items which is currently in Focus.
> The same is applicable to Rich internet application Menu.
> For example if you are having hundred navigation links, Certainly you
> don't
> put all these links in the navigation, you'll catagorise them and place
> them
> in a Menu format.
> Now coming to Keyboard accessibility, when a user wants to Access the
> Third
> menu in the serial, he needs to use tab so many times.If you make the same
> similar to desk top, the user can get that with 3 tabs, and he can
> navigate
> the menu items using arrow keys.
>
> Now coming to JAWS 9.0 issue, it has lack of ARIA support(the techniques
> used to make rich internet applications Accessible).
> Thanks and Regards,
> Jeevan
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 5:57 PM, adam solomon
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
>> Is arrow-key navigation necessary for an accessible menu?
>> To the best of my knowledge, arrow key navigation won't work with Jaws 9
>> because those keys are reserved for Jaws (correct me on this if I'm
>> wrong).
>> If so, and if the answer to the first question is yes, what is the
>> solution?
>>
>> --
>> adam solomon
>> linkedin <http://il.linkedin.com/pub/adam-solomon/24/449/a4>;
>> blogix <http://adam.blogix.co.il/>;
>>
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2010 3:30AM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Al, you appear to enjoy using disparaging remarks in refrence to
advocates of standarized menus using the arrow keys for naviagtion.
The issue is and alsways has been that developers have tried to do
more with HTML+JavaScript+CSS than was initially intended. They have
built multilevel navigation menus, without the correct semantics and
interaction behaviours being built in.
The good news is that instead of carping about this people
(industrious people, including user with disabilites) have worked to
provide a set of standarized behaviours for a range of interactive
controls that are not available in HTML4.
the results are available: http://dev.aol.com/dhtml_style_guide
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#keyboard
be aware that HTML5 includes standarized elements and attributes that
allow authors to build native HTML menus
(http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/interactive-elements.html#menus). when
implemented these will remove the need to hack menus in HTML and they
will in all certainty use the standard keyboard interaction behaviours
used in the OS.
While I agree that it may not be appropriate to use arrow key based
navigation for a naviagtion menu on a web site at this time, it
certainly is the appropriate thing to do in web based applications
where the semantics of the menu are provided using ARIA.
best regards
Steve Faulkner
On 15 December 2010 06:13, Al Sparber < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On 12/15/2010 12:51 AM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>> that's interesting because JAWS encourages users to use arrow keys when
>> coming across dropdown menus and there is a keyboard command to open such
>> menus.
>
> I think you might be referring to operating system drop-down menus. In
> my opinion, the cacophony of opinions - even those of perceived experts
> in the field - do not stand up to logic. Fact is, any CSS or
> script-based menu can be made accessible if the web designer knows what
> he or she is doing - and it's ridiculously easy.
>
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
> Dreamweaver Menus | Galleries | Widgets
> http://www.projectseven.com/go/hgm
> The Ultimate Web 2.0 Carousel
>
From: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2010 4:15AM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | Next message →
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 10:15 PM, adam solomon
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On the other hand, ARIA
> is still a draft, and is not supported by IE browsers many people are still
> using. JAWS support is limited as you mentioned.
You _could_ default to using the ARIA menu role giving arrows keys
next-item functionality and tab next-menu, then fork behavior to give
tab and arrow keys the same next-item functionality for a blacklist of
known-bad browsers, e.g. IE < 8, Fx < 3, Safari < 5 (or whichever
versions introduced the requisite functionality).
--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
From: Michael.Moore
Date: Thu, Dec 16 2010 8:15AM
Subject: Re: arrow key navigation in accessible menu
← Previous message | No next message
Chuck wrote " Jaws 9.0 probably shouldn't be used as a basis for testing as it is an
obsolete version."
It really depends upon your intended audience. For example JFW 9 is still the standard AT for our 150+ staff who depend upon a screen reader to access our systems. It will likely remain the standard until the agency upgrades the OS which is unlikely to happen for another two years. Thus our screen reader compatibility testing includes JFW 9. JFW 11 and 12 have been optimized for Win 7 and we are still running XP as are many government and corporate enterprises.
If you are developing public interfaces for people to access basic or essential public services you should be conservative in the requirements. Applications that require ARIA support are not in my opinion not appropriate for deployment for those types of applications at this time. If on the other hand you are developing applications meant to provide a rich, immersive experiences that demonstrate cutting edge capabilities with a target audience of tech savvy folks then by all means design and test for the latest AT browsers and operating systems.
Mike Moore