E-mail List Archives
Thread: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)
From: Richard R. Hill
Date: Mon, Dec 13 2010 10:18AM
Subject: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
No previous message | Next message →
There have been some discussion here on this topic in the past, but time moves on and so do the interpretations of what is and is not accessible.
If I place my main content at the top of the (X)XHTML source code with other elements appearing after and use CSS to visually place the elements visually on a page, will this cause accessibility issues?
So, the source may look like:
Header
Main content
Sidebar content
Site navigation
Page navigation
Footer
And the visual page (three column layout):
Header
Site Navigation
Page Navigation:Main Content:Sidebar Content
Footer
My concern is that by convention, this may be jarring to folks using AT to navigate the page. Visual page order and source code order don't match, so potential issues exist when folks with different (or no) disabilities or different browsers attempt to collaborate. Skip navigation link labels may be confusing (Skip to Navigation rather than Skip to Content). May be forced to define tab-order, since the default order when not necessarily make sense. Plus, WCAG 2.0 section 1.3.2 seems to imply that its best to have the visual layout match the code layout.
What's the current take on this?
From: Jared Smith
Date: Mon, Dec 13 2010 10:30AM
Subject: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
← Previous message | Next message →
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Richard R. Hill wrote:
I think you summed up the potential issues very well. Because it is so
atypical and can cause confusion, I generally think it is not an
optimal technique. The issues this layout tries to address are
adequately resolved with one "Skip to main content" link and a good
heading structure.
You also hinted at the significant issues it may cause for sighted
keyboard users who may be confused as the focus order through the page
jumps around the visual presentation.
Jared Smith
WebAIM
From: steven
Date: Mon, Dec 13 2010 10:36AM
Subject: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Richard,
It is certainly more accessible to place content at the very top of the page
if the user is accessing the content directly (ie; from a search engine
result or direct URL). But because browsers have no way to allow users to
navigate content yet without embedding the navigation into pages, it is
still common for users to expect navigation at the top of the page.
I personally look forward to the day that content and function is properly
separated, but I don't see that happening any time soon, though I would
place my bets on mobile Apps paving the way towards this happening.
Steven
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Richard R. Hill
Sent: 13 December 2010 17:17
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is source ordered content accessible?
There have been some discussion here on this topic in the past, but time
moves on and so do the interpretations of what is and is not accessible.
If I place my main content at the top of the (X)XHTML source code with
other elements appearing after and use CSS to visually place the elements
visually on a page, will this cause accessibility issues?
So, the source may look like:
Header
Main content
Sidebar content
Site navigation
Page navigation
Footer
And the visual page (three column layout):
Header
Site Navigation
Page Navigation:Main Content:Sidebar Content
Footer
My concern is that by convention, this may be jarring to folks using AT to
navigate the page. Visual page order and source code order don't match, so
potential issues exist when folks with different (or no) disabilities or
different browsers attempt to collaborate. Skip navigation link labels may
be confusing (Skip to Navigation rather than Skip to Content). May be forced
to define tab-order, since the default order when not necessarily make
sense. Plus, WCAG 2.0 section 1.3.2 seems to imply that its best to have
the visual layout match the code layout.
What's the current take on this?
From: Ghita Jones
Date: Thu, Jan 13 2011 11:42AM
Subject: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
← Previous message | Next message →
What about keyboard users? Do they have a way to use the headings? I was
more against "multiple" skip nav type links, but now I'm thinking that
without them, keyboard users have a lot of extra tabbing.
Ghita
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Richard R. Hill wrote:
>
> I think you summed up the potential issues very well. Because it is so
> atypical and can cause confusion, I generally think it is not an
> optimal technique. The issues this layout tries to address are
> adequately resolved with one "Skip to main content" link and a good
> heading structure.
>
> You also hinted at the significant issues it may cause for sighted
> keyboard users who may be confused as the focus order through the page
> jumps around the visual presentation.
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM
>
From: Morin, Gary (NIH/OD) [E]
Date: Thu, Jan 13 2011 12:18PM
Subject: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
← Previous message | Next message →
I'm sighted but not a fulltime keyboard user* - I use speech recognition software (currently Dragon Naturally Speaking Professional 11.0) and also have trouble using headings. I find I have to do A LOT of extra tabbing to get through a page or tables.
*The more IT is not compatible with speech recognition software, the more I have to do things manually, which only exacerbates (the pain and thus) the need to use assistive technology.
Gary M. Morin, Program Analyst
NIH Office of the Chief Information Officer
10401 Fernwood Rd, Room 3G-17
Bethesda, MD 20892, Mail Stop: 4833
(301) 402-3924 Voice, 451-9326 TTY/NTS
Videophone (240) 380-3063; (301) 402-4464 Fax
NIH Section 508 Team: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ?subject=Section 508 Helpor, for Section 508 Guidance, http://www.hhs.gov/web/508/index.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Ghita Jones [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 1:34 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is source ordered content accessible?
What about keyboard users? Do they have a way to use the headings? I was
more against "multiple" skip nav type links, but now I'm thinking that
without them, keyboard users have a lot of extra tabbing.
Ghita
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Richard R. Hill wrote:
>
> I think you summed up the potential issues very well. Because it is so
> atypical and can cause confusion, I generally think it is not an
> optimal technique. The issues this layout tries to address are
> adequately resolved with one "Skip to main content" link and a good
> heading structure.
>
> You also hinted at the significant issues it may cause for sighted
> keyboard users who may be confused as the focus order through the page
> jumps around the visual presentation.
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM
>
From: Pollard, Larry W. (DRS)
Date: Thu, Jan 13 2011 12:39PM
Subject: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
← Previous message | Next message →
As I am reading this post, I am in the process of writing new state
standards for E-learning accessibility and using screen readers:
Tabbing from link to link is a way of skimming web content, especially
if users are trying to find a particular section of a web site.
Implication 1: Links should make sense out of context. Phrases such as
"click here," "more," "click for details," and so on are almost
completely meaningless when read out of context. At the same time, it
would be overkill to ensure that every detail about a link destination
is discernable by listening to the link context. Users would not want to
hear "Products page on which a list of all of our products are
presented, including software products and training products, with a
list of prices and availability by region (this page uses the same
navigation template as the page you are now on)." Perhaps a better
alternative would be a link that simply says "Products."
Implication 2: Place the distinguishing information of links at the
beginning of a link. Do not put extra information first, For example, do
not say "Link opens in a new window: Products." Instead, say "Products
(opens in a new window)" (or something along those lines). This is
especially important in this example if several links open in a new
window. With the explanatory information first instead of the main
information, screen reader users would have to listen to the phrase
"link opens in a new window" repeatedly. They will have a harder time
distinguishing between different links, or at least it will take them
longer.
Screen reader users sometimes obtain an alphabetically organized list of
links
Screen readers allow users to extract the links into an alphabetically
organized list, using a keyboard shortcut within their screen reader
software for that purpose. This is especially useful if they have an
idea of what letter the link they are looking for starts with.
Implication: Use link words and phrases that can be intuitively
organized in alphabetical order. For example, the phrase "contact us" is
a common one that users may want to access. If the link says "you can
contact us," or "how to contact us," or some other phrase that is less
intuitive, users may have a more difficult time finding the link.
Larry. Pollard
Accessibility Webmaster
Department of Rehabilitative Services
-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Morin, Gary
(NIH/OD) [E]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 2:17 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is source ordered content accessible?
I'm sighted but not a fulltime keyboard user* - I use speech recognition
software (currently Dragon Naturally Speaking Professional 11.0) and
also have trouble using headings. I find I have to do A LOT of extra
tabbing to get through a page or tables.
*The more IT is not compatible with speech recognition software, the
more I have to do things manually, which only exacerbates (the pain and
thus) the need to use assistive technology.
Gary M. Morin, Program Analyst
NIH Office of the Chief Information Officer
10401 Fernwood Rd, Room 3G-17
Bethesda, MD 20892, Mail Stop: 4833
(301) 402-3924 Voice, 451-9326 TTY/NTS
Videophone (240) 380-3063; (301) 402-4464 Fax
NIH Section 508 Team: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ?subject=Section
508 Helpor, for Section 508 Guidance,
http://www.hhs.gov/web/508/index.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Ghita Jones [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 1:34 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is source ordered content accessible?
What about keyboard users? Do they have a way to use the headings? I was
more against "multiple" skip nav type links, but now I'm thinking that
without them, keyboard users have a lot of extra tabbing.
Ghita
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Richard R. Hill wrote:
>
> I think you summed up the potential issues very well. Because it is so
> atypical and can cause confusion, I generally think it is not an
> optimal technique. The issues this layout tries to address are
> adequately resolved with one "Skip to main content" link and a good
> heading structure.
>
> You also hinted at the significant issues it may cause for sighted
> keyboard users who may be confused as the focus order through the page
> jumps around the visual presentation.
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM
>
From: Jim Allan
Date: Thu, Jan 13 2011 12:54PM
Subject: Re: Is source ordered content accessible?
← Previous message | No next message
Heading Navigation should be built into a browser.
Opera has had navigation by heading since it started.
Firefox has extension that let you navigate by heading
Heading Map https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7203/
University of Illinois Urbana Accessibility extension
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/5809/
Heading navigation is part of the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines
2.0 (http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101117/). If you want
an accessibility feature, let your browser manufacturer know. Ask them
to meet the User Agent Accessibility Guidelines. The working group is
always interested in comments on the working draft. You can follow our
work at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/
Jim Allan (co-chair W3C User Agent Accessibility Working Group)
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Pollard, Larry W. (DRS)
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> As I am reading this post, I am in the process of writing new state
> standards for E-learning accessibility and using screen readers:
>
> Tabbing from link to link is a way of skimming web content, especially
> if users are trying to find a particular section of a web site.
>
> Implication 1: Links should make sense out of context. Phrases such as
> "click here," "more," "click for details," and so on are almost
> completely meaningless when read out of context. At the same time, it
> would be overkill to ensure that every detail about a link destination
> is discernable by listening to the link context. Users would not want to
> hear "Products page on which a list of all of our products are
> presented, including software products and training products, with a
> list of prices and availability by region (this page uses the same
> navigation template as the page you are now on)." Perhaps a better
> alternative would be a link that simply says "Products."
>
> Implication 2: Place the distinguishing information of links at the
> beginning of a link. Do not put extra information first, For example, do
> not say "Link opens in a new window: Products." Instead, say "Products
> (opens in a new window)" (or something along those lines). This is
> especially important in this example if several links open in a new
> window. With the explanatory information first instead of the main
> information, screen reader users would have to listen to the phrase
> "link opens in a new window" repeatedly. They will have a harder time
> distinguishing between different links, or at least it will take them
> longer.
> Screen reader users sometimes obtain an alphabetically organized list of
> links
>
> Screen readers allow users to extract the links into an alphabetically
> organized list, using a keyboard shortcut within their screen reader
> software for that purpose. This is especially useful if they have an
> idea of what letter the link they are looking for starts with.
>
> Implication: Use link words and phrases that can be intuitively
> organized in alphabetical order. For example, the phrase "contact us" is
> a common one that users may want to access. If the link says "you can
> contact us," or "how to contact us," or some other phrase that is less
> intuitive, users may have a more difficult time finding the link.
>
> Larry. Pollard
> Accessibility Webmaster
> Department of Rehabilitative Services
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Morin, Gary
> (NIH/OD) [E]
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 2:17 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is source ordered content accessible?
>
> I'm sighted but not a fulltime keyboard user* - I use speech recognition
> software (currently Dragon Naturally Speaking Professional 11.0) and
> also have trouble using headings. I find I have to do A LOT of extra
> tabbing to get through a page or tables.
>
> *The more IT is not compatible with speech recognition software, the
> more I have to do things manually, which only exacerbates (the pain and
> thus) the need to use assistive technology.
>
> Gary M. Morin, Program Analyst
> NIH Office of the Chief Information Officer
> 10401 Fernwood Rd, Room 3G-17
> Bethesda, MD 20892, Mail Stop: 4833
>
> (301) 402-3924 Voice, 451-9326 TTY/NTS
> Videophone (240) 380-3063; (301) 402-4464 Fax
>
> NIH Section 508 Team: mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ?subject=Section
> 508 Helpor, for Section 508 Guidance,
> http://www.hhs.gov/web/508/index.html
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ghita Jones [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 1:34 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is source ordered content accessible?
>
> What about keyboard users? Do they have a way to use the headings? I was
> more against "multiple" skip nav type links, but now I'm thinking that
> without them, keyboard users have a lot of extra tabbing.
> Ghita
>
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 10:16 AM, Richard R. Hill wrote:
>>
>> I think you summed up the potential issues very well. Because it is so
>> atypical and can cause confusion, I generally think it is not an
>> optimal technique. The issues this layout tries to address are
>> adequately resolved with one "Skip to main content" link and a good
>> heading structure.
>>
>> You also hinted at the significant issues it may cause for sighted
>> keyboard users who may be confused as the focus order through the page
>> jumps around the visual presentation.
>>
>> Jared Smith
>> WebAIM
>>