WebAIM - Web Accessibility In Mind

E-mail List Archives

Thread: how screen readers navigate by headline

for

Number of posts in this thread: 16 (In chronological order)

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2011 3:45PM
Subject: how screen readers navigate by headline
No previous message | Next message →

I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for users to navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of choosing the correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear sense of document structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what means does the screen reader user have of getting the big picture sense of document structure other than navigating through? As a sighted user, I ascertain a document's structure by the logical, relative use of headline font size and design.

When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do you place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you more interested in the content of the headline to get context? In other words, how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you just ignore them?

I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content editors (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of obstacles that are presented to users when content isn't marked up correctly.

Thank you,

Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.checkoutacollege.com/

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2011 4:27PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Angela

Let me have a first crack at it.
Jaws (I believe NVDA, Hal and Window Eyes do the same) allow you to
navigate by heading, either by using "h" to jump to the next heading,
regardless of its level, or use the number keys 1 through 6 (in the
top row, not on the numpad) to jump to the next heading within that
level. In other words, if you have a part of a website with
heading level 1
heading level 3
heading level 1
heading level 2
I believe that pressing 2 when you are at the top of the page would
result in saying "no heading of that level in this section", due to
the fact there is another heading level 1 below your location, so that
#2 heading is not vissible until you get there. To get there you'd
first have to press 1 to get to the second level 1 heading, then 2 to
get to the level 2 heading within that section.


Listers, please correct me f this is misunderstanding how Jaws andles
headings, I'll consult documentation or experiment later to confirm
this, but I am at least 80% sure this is how it works.
Also consult: http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/Surfs-Up/Navigating.htm
for Jaws training on navigating webpages (including headings).

A sighted colleague of mine, who teaches A.T. for a living, has long
complained about the lack of guidelines and that there are virtually
no techniques to teach people to most quickly get a handle on a
website, and the reason is that they are so diverse there is no best
practice to explore a website..
What I truly like, as a user, is to have the main content of the web
site marked up with a level 1 heading.
If I click on an page containing and article, I want the title of that
article to be a level 1 heading so I can use "1" to jump straigt to
it.
I'd say the majority of websites (including WebAIM) do this, and I am
very grateful for it.
(for discussions on different viewpoints on how to useheadings, you
can see the list archive or www.webaim.org).
Using too many headings is disruptive, make the order logical if you
can, and make sure if there is a single purpose/point with the page
(e.g. an article or a form) that the user can navigate to it with as
few key strokes as possible, where I see a level 1 heading play a
crucial role.
The more items on a page, the higher the heading level, e.g. news
story archive could have heading level 4s so that "3" can be used to
jump over all of these things to the next thing on the page. You could
use heading level 1 for the first head line, or title f section, then
keep all the news stories a level 2 or level 3 heading so that auser
who wants to jump directly to the next section can do that.

Honestly I, and I believe most users, tend to use down arrow to
inspect the page, unless it's disfunctionally big, and memorize the
shortcuts I can make for the future (notice that a list or a table
contains what I want, I notice headings level 1 and 2, but not so much
3s and above). I also make extensive use of Jaws's "n" functionality
(jump to first instance of a different element), NvDA and Hal have
this too, so I suspect Window Eyes follows suit (in NVDA this does not
work logically for some reason, but Hal and Jaws handle this
identically).

I've flirted with the idea of formalizing these strategies in a
document and send it to A.T. teachers to see if they can add or modify
that article, or if they say these things are totally unusable.

Hope some of this helps.
-Birkir


On 9/1/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for users to
> navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of choosing the
> correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear sense of document
> structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what means does the screen
> reader user have of getting the big picture sense of document structure
> other than navigating through? As a sighted user, I ascertain a document's
> structure by the logical, relative use of headline font size and design.
>
> When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do you
> place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you more
> interested in the content of the headline to get context? In other words,
> how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you just ignore them?
>
> I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content editors
> (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of obstacles that
> are presented to users when content isn't marked up correctly.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2011 4:36PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks. Finding out if user can overlook content as a result of missing headlines is exactly what I needed to know.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:28 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

Angela

Let me have a first crack at it.
Jaws (I believe NVDA, Hal and Window Eyes do the same) allow you to navigate by heading, either by using "h" to jump to the next heading, regardless of its level, or use the number keys 1 through 6 (in the top row, not on the numpad) to jump to the next heading within that level. In other words, if you have a part of a website with heading level 1 heading level 3 heading level 1 heading level 2 I believe that pressing 2 when you are at the top of the page would result in saying "no heading of that level in this section", due to the fact there is another heading level 1 below your location, so that
#2 heading is not vissible until you get there. To get there you'd first have to press 1 to get to the second level 1 heading, then 2 to get to the level 2 heading within that section.


Listers, please correct me f this is misunderstanding how Jaws andles headings, I'll consult documentation or experiment later to confirm this, but I am at least 80% sure this is how it works.
Also consult: http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/Surfs-Up/Navigating.htm
for Jaws training on navigating webpages (including headings).

A sighted colleague of mine, who teaches A.T. for a living, has long complained about the lack of guidelines and that there are virtually no techniques to teach people to most quickly get a handle on a website, and the reason is that they are so diverse there is no best practice to explore a website..
What I truly like, as a user, is to have the main content of the web site marked up with a level 1 heading.
If I click on an page containing and article, I want the title of that article to be a level 1 heading so I can use "1" to jump straigt to it.
I'd say the majority of websites (including WebAIM) do this, and I am very grateful for it.
(for discussions on different viewpoints on how to useheadings, you can see the list archive or www.webaim.org).
Using too many headings is disruptive, make the order logical if you can, and make sure if there is a single purpose/point with the page (e.g. an article or a form) that the user can navigate to it with as few key strokes as possible, where I see a level 1 heading play a crucial role.
The more items on a page, the higher the heading level, e.g. news story archive could have heading level 4s so that "3" can be used to jump over all of these things to the next thing on the page. You could use heading level 1 for the first head line, or title f section, then keep all the news stories a level 2 or level 3 heading so that auser who wants to jump directly to the next section can do that.

Honestly I, and I believe most users, tend to use down arrow to inspect the page, unless it's disfunctionally big, and memorize the shortcuts I can make for the future (notice that a list or a table contains what I want, I notice headings level 1 and 2, but not so much 3s and above). I also make extensive use of Jaws's "n" functionality (jump to first instance of a different element), NvDA and Hal have this too, so I suspect Window Eyes follows suit (in NVDA this does not work logically for some reason, but Hal and Jaws handle this identically).

I've flirted with the idea of formalizing these strategies in a document and send it to A.T. teachers to see if they can add or modify that article, or if they say these things are totally unusable.

Hope some of this helps.
-Birkir


On 9/1/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for
> users to navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of
> choosing the correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear
> sense of document structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what
> means does the screen reader user have of getting the big picture
> sense of document structure other than navigating through? As a
> sighted user, I ascertain a document's structure by the logical, relative use of headline font size and design.
>
> When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do
> you place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you
> more interested in the content of the headline to get context? In
> other words, how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you just ignore them?
>
> I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content
> editors (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of
> obstacles that are presented to users when content isn't marked up correctly.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Alan Dyck
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2011 4:42PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

I am interested in the ARIA standard of html tags. It seems like ARIA is
supposed to help give the idea of the page at a glance. Can anyone comment
who actually uses it in their reader? Any good examples of sites using ARIA?

I am new to the list so feel free to refer me to the archives.

Sincerely,
Alan Dyck



-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela French
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:34 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

Thanks. Finding out if user can overlook content as a result of missing
headlines is exactly what I needed to know.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:28 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

Angela

Let me have a first crack at it.
Jaws (I believe NVDA, Hal and Window Eyes do the same) allow you to navigate
by heading, either by using "h" to jump to the next heading, regardless of
its level, or use the number keys 1 through 6 (in the top row, not on the
numpad) to jump to the next heading within that level. In other words, if
you have a part of a website with heading level 1 heading level 3 heading
level 1 heading level 2 I believe that pressing 2 when you are at the top of
the page would result in saying "no heading of that level in this section",
due to the fact there is another heading level 1 below your location, so
that
#2 heading is not vissible until you get there. To get there you'd first
have to press 1 to get to the second level 1 heading, then 2 to get to the
level 2 heading within that section.


Listers, please correct me f this is misunderstanding how Jaws andles
headings, I'll consult documentation or experiment later to confirm this,
but I am at least 80% sure this is how it works.
Also consult:
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/Surfs-Up/Navigating.htm
for Jaws training on navigating webpages (including headings).

A sighted colleague of mine, who teaches A.T. for a living, has long
complained about the lack of guidelines and that there are virtually no
techniques to teach people to most quickly get a handle on a website, and
the reason is that they are so diverse there is no best practice to explore
a website..
What I truly like, as a user, is to have the main content of the web site
marked up with a level 1 heading.
If I click on an page containing and article, I want the title of that
article to be a level 1 heading so I can use "1" to jump straigt to it.
I'd say the majority of websites (including WebAIM) do this, and I am very
grateful for it.
(for discussions on different viewpoints on how to useheadings, you can see
the list archive or www.webaim.org).
Using too many headings is disruptive, make the order logical if you can,
and make sure if there is a single purpose/point with the page (e.g. an
article or a form) that the user can navigate to it with as few key strokes
as possible, where I see a level 1 heading play a crucial role.
The more items on a page, the higher the heading level, e.g. news story
archive could have heading level 4s so that "3" can be used to jump over all
of these things to the next thing on the page. You could use heading level 1
for the first head line, or title f section, then keep all the news stories
a level 2 or level 3 heading so that auser who wants to jump directly to the
next section can do that.

Honestly I, and I believe most users, tend to use down arrow to inspect the
page, unless it's disfunctionally big, and memorize the shortcuts I can make
for the future (notice that a list or a table contains what I want, I notice
headings level 1 and 2, but not so much 3s and above). I also make extensive
use of Jaws's "n" functionality (jump to first instance of a different
element), NvDA and Hal have this too, so I suspect Window Eyes follows suit
(in NVDA this does not work logically for some reason, but Hal and Jaws
handle this identically).

I've flirted with the idea of formalizing these strategies in a document and
send it to A.T. teachers to see if they can add or modify that article, or
if they say these things are totally unusable.

Hope some of this helps.
-Birkir


On 9/1/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for
> users to navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of
> choosing the correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear
> sense of document structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what
> means does the screen reader user have of getting the big picture
> sense of document structure other than navigating through? As a
> sighted user, I ascertain a document's structure by the logical, relative
use of headline font size and design.
>
> When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do
> you place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you
> more interested in the content of the headline to get context? In
> other words, how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you
just ignore them?
>
> I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content
> editors (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of
> obstacles that are presented to users when content isn't marked up
correctly.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Will Grignon
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2011 4:48PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Using JAWS on the web:
INSERT + F6 displays a list of all headings
The JAWS user can scroll down this list to see all the headings, what level
they are, and how they are labeled
He can then press ENTER on a heading in this list and the cursor will be
moved to that heading on the webpage, where he can then navigate down
through the section prefaced by the desired heading

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela French
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 6:34 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

Thanks. Finding out if user can overlook content as a result of missing
headlines is exactly what I needed to know.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 3:28 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

Angela

Let me have a first crack at it.
Jaws (I believe NVDA, Hal and Window Eyes do the same) allow you to navigate
by heading, either by using "h" to jump to the next heading, regardless of
its level, or use the number keys 1 through 6 (in the top row, not on the
numpad) to jump to the next heading within that level. In other words, if
you have a part of a website with heading level 1 heading level 3 heading
level 1 heading level 2 I believe that pressing 2 when you are at the top of
the page would result in saying "no heading of that level in this section",
due to the fact there is another heading level 1 below your location, so
that
#2 heading is not vissible until you get there. To get there you'd first
have to press 1 to get to the second level 1 heading, then 2 to get to the
level 2 heading within that section.


Listers, please correct me f this is misunderstanding how Jaws andles
headings, I'll consult documentation or experiment later to confirm this,
but I am at least 80% sure this is how it works.
Also consult:
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/Surfs-Up/Navigating.htm
for Jaws training on navigating webpages (including headings).

A sighted colleague of mine, who teaches A.T. for a living, has long
complained about the lack of guidelines and that there are virtually no
techniques to teach people to most quickly get a handle on a website, and
the reason is that they are so diverse there is no best practice to explore
a website..
What I truly like, as a user, is to have the main content of the web site
marked up with a level 1 heading.
If I click on an page containing and article, I want the title of that
article to be a level 1 heading so I can use "1" to jump straigt to it.
I'd say the majority of websites (including WebAIM) do this, and I am very
grateful for it.
(for discussions on different viewpoints on how to useheadings, you can see
the list archive or www.webaim.org).
Using too many headings is disruptive, make the order logical if you can,
and make sure if there is a single purpose/point with the page (e.g. an
article or a form) that the user can navigate to it with as few key strokes
as possible, where I see a level 1 heading play a crucial role.
The more items on a page, the higher the heading level, e.g. news story
archive could have heading level 4s so that "3" can be used to jump over all
of these things to the next thing on the page. You could use heading level 1
for the first head line, or title f section, then keep all the news stories
a level 2 or level 3 heading so that auser who wants to jump directly to the
next section can do that.

Honestly I, and I believe most users, tend to use down arrow to inspect the
page, unless it's disfunctionally big, and memorize the shortcuts I can make
for the future (notice that a list or a table contains what I want, I notice
headings level 1 and 2, but not so much 3s and above). I also make extensive
use of Jaws's "n" functionality (jump to first instance of a different
element), NvDA and Hal have this too, so I suspect Window Eyes follows suit
(in NVDA this does not work logically for some reason, but Hal and Jaws
handle this identically).

I've flirted with the idea of formalizing these strategies in a document and
send it to A.T. teachers to see if they can add or modify that article, or
if they say these things are totally unusable.

Hope some of this helps.
-Birkir


On 9/1/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for
> users to navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of
> choosing the correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear
> sense of document structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what
> means does the screen reader user have of getting the big picture
> sense of document structure other than navigating through? As a
> sighted user, I ascertain a document's structure by the logical, relative
use of headline font size and design.
>
> When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do
> you place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you
> more interested in the content of the headline to get context? In
> other words, how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you
just ignore them?
>
> I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content
> editors (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of
> obstacles that are presented to users when content isn't marked up
correctly.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Will Grignon
Date: Thu, Sep 01 2011 4:54PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

This sounds correct.

As a result, I tend to just use "h" to skip through headings.

While nesting headings is a plus, since it can give a user an idea of the
relative importance of headings and hence sections, the most important thing
for page-navigation is to format section titles or key links with
heading-levels and label these headings with clear and descriptive labels,
so a JAWS-user can easily run through a web-page by skipping from heading to
heading and get a good idea about what is on the page, how it is laid out,
and where the part to which he wants to go is located.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 6:28 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

Angela

Let me have a first crack at it.
Jaws (I believe NVDA, Hal and Window Eyes do the same) allow you to navigate
by heading, either by using "h" to jump to the next heading, regardless of
its level, or use the number keys 1 through 6 (in the top row, not on the
numpad) to jump to the next heading within that level. In other words, if
you have a part of a website with heading level 1 heading level 3 heading
level 1 heading level 2 I believe that pressing 2 when you are at the top of
the page would result in saying "no heading of that level in this section",
due to the fact there is another heading level 1 below your location, so
that
#2 heading is not vissible until you get there. To get there you'd first
have to press 1 to get to the second level 1 heading, then 2 to get to the
level 2 heading within that section.


Listers, please correct me f this is misunderstanding how Jaws andles
headings, I'll consult documentation or experiment later to confirm this,
but I am at least 80% sure this is how it works.
Also consult:
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/Surfs-Up/Navigating.htm
for Jaws training on navigating webpages (including headings).

A sighted colleague of mine, who teaches A.T. for a living, has long
complained about the lack of guidelines and that there are virtually no
techniques to teach people to most quickly get a handle on a website, and
the reason is that they are so diverse there is no best practice to explore
a website..
What I truly like, as a user, is to have the main content of the web site
marked up with a level 1 heading.
If I click on an page containing and article, I want the title of that
article to be a level 1 heading so I can use "1" to jump straigt to it.
I'd say the majority of websites (including WebAIM) do this, and I am very
grateful for it.
(for discussions on different viewpoints on how to useheadings, you can see
the list archive or www.webaim.org).
Using too many headings is disruptive, make the order logical if you can,
and make sure if there is a single purpose/point with the page (e.g. an
article or a form) that the user can navigate to it with as few key strokes
as possible, where I see a level 1 heading play a crucial role.
The more items on a page, the higher the heading level, e.g. news story
archive could have heading level 4s so that "3" can be used to jump over all
of these things to the next thing on the page. You could use heading level 1
for the first head line, or title f section, then keep all the news stories
a level 2 or level 3 heading so that auser who wants to jump directly to the
next section can do that.

Honestly I, and I believe most users, tend to use down arrow to inspect the
page, unless it's disfunctionally big, and memorize the shortcuts I can make
for the future (notice that a list or a table contains what I want, I notice
headings level 1 and 2, but not so much 3s and above). I also make extensive
use of Jaws's "n" functionality (jump to first instance of a different
element), NvDA and Hal have this too, so I suspect Window Eyes follows suit
(in NVDA this does not work logically for some reason, but Hal and Jaws
handle this identically).

I've flirted with the idea of formalizing these strategies in a document and
send it to A.T. teachers to see if they can add or modify that article, or
if they say these things are totally unusable.

Hope some of this helps.
-Birkir


On 9/1/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for
> users to navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of
> choosing the correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear
> sense of document structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what
> means does the screen reader user have of getting the big picture
> sense of document structure other than navigating through? As a
> sighted user, I ascertain a document's structure by the logical, relative
use of headline font size and design.
>
> When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do
> you place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you
> more interested in the content of the headline to get context? In
> other words, how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you
just ignore them?
>
> I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content
> editors (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of
> obstacles that are presented to users when content isn't marked up
correctly.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Fri, Sep 02 2011 4:57AM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

I would add that heading levels are important to understanding how the
content is organized. There is nothing more frustrating than being on a web
page or opening a document and having everything at Heading 6 or H6 simply
because the document designer like the look of that heading level.

The new draft Section 508 that has been commented on...and for which we are
awaiting the next draft....has as part of its criteria that heading levels
in document be correct and hierarchical as part of the navigational
structure.

I think if you are advocating headings the heading level needs to be part of
that.

For me there isn't a "more important" when looking at heading text or level;
both provide equal navigational information in a document.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
Gunnarsson
Sent: September-01-11 6:28 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

Angela

Let me have a first crack at it.
Jaws (I believe NVDA, Hal and Window Eyes do the same) allow you to navigate
by heading, either by using "h" to jump to the next heading, regardless of
its level, or use the number keys 1 through 6 (in the top row, not on the
numpad) to jump to the next heading within that level. In other words, if
you have a part of a website with heading level 1 heading level 3 heading
level 1 heading level 2 I believe that pressing 2 when you are at the top of
the page would result in saying "no heading of that level in this section",
due to the fact there is another heading level 1 below your location, so
that
#2 heading is not vissible until you get there. To get there you'd first
have to press 1 to get to the second level 1 heading, then 2 to get to the
level 2 heading within that section.


Listers, please correct me f this is misunderstanding how Jaws andles
headings, I'll consult documentation or experiment later to confirm this,
but I am at least 80% sure this is how it works.
Also consult:
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/Surfs-Up/Navigating.htm
for Jaws training on navigating webpages (including headings).

A sighted colleague of mine, who teaches A.T. for a living, has long
complained about the lack of guidelines and that there are virtually no
techniques to teach people to most quickly get a handle on a website, and
the reason is that they are so diverse there is no best practice to explore
a website..
What I truly like, as a user, is to have the main content of the web site
marked up with a level 1 heading.
If I click on an page containing and article, I want the title of that
article to be a level 1 heading so I can use "1" to jump straigt to it.
I'd say the majority of websites (including WebAIM) do this, and I am very
grateful for it.
(for discussions on different viewpoints on how to useheadings, you can see
the list archive or www.webaim.org).
Using too many headings is disruptive, make the order logical if you can,
and make sure if there is a single purpose/point with the page (e.g. an
article or a form) that the user can navigate to it with as few key strokes
as possible, where I see a level 1 heading play a crucial role.
The more items on a page, the higher the heading level, e.g. news story
archive could have heading level 4s so that "3" can be used to jump over all
of these things to the next thing on the page. You could use heading level 1
for the first head line, or title f section, then keep all the news stories
a level 2 or level 3 heading so that auser who wants to jump directly to the
next section can do that.

Honestly I, and I believe most users, tend to use down arrow to inspect the
page, unless it's disfunctionally big, and memorize the shortcuts I can make
for the future (notice that a list or a table contains what I want, I notice
headings level 1 and 2, but not so much 3s and above). I also make extensive
use of Jaws's "n" functionality (jump to first instance of a different
element), NvDA and Hal have this too, so I suspect Window Eyes follows suit
(in NVDA this does not work logically for some reason, but Hal and Jaws
handle this identically).

I've flirted with the idea of formalizing these strategies in a document and
send it to A.T. teachers to see if they can add or modify that article, or
if they say these things are totally unusable.

Hope some of this helps.
-Birkir


On 9/1/11, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for
> users to navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of
> choosing the correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear
> sense of document structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what
> means does the screen reader user have of getting the big picture
> sense of document structure other than navigating through? As a
> sighted user, I ascertain a document's structure by the logical, relative
use of headline font size and design.
>
> When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do
> you place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you
> more interested in the content of the headline to get context? In
> other words, how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you
just ignore them?
>
> I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content
> editors (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of
> obstacles that are presented to users when content isn't marked up
correctly.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>

From: Mary Stores
Date: Fri, Sep 02 2011 7:30AM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

I use ARIA landmarks on the Google Search results pages, along with
headings, to very easily find the content I'm looking for. It makes
life so much easier.

Mary

Quoting Alan Dyck < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> I am interested in the ARIA standard of html tags. It seems like ARIA is
> supposed to help give the idea of the page at a glance. Can anyone comment
> who actually uses it in their reader? Any good examples of sites using ARIA?
>
> I am new to the list so feel free to refer me to the archives.
>
> Sincerely,
> Alan Dyck
>

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Fri, Sep 02 2011 1:09PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Both JAWS and NVDA allows you to navigate a page via headings (h) and
landmarks (;). These are two different things. It may make sense to
put a heading after a landmark but not vis versa.

--
Ryan E. Benson



On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Mary Stores < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I use ARIA landmarks on the Google Search results pages, along with
> headings, to very easily find the content I'm looking for. It makes
> life so much easier.
>
> Mary
>
> Quoting Alan Dyck < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
>
>> I am interested in the ARIA standard of html tags. It seems like ARIA is
>> supposed to help give the idea of the page at a glance. Can anyone comment
>> who actually uses it in their reader? Any good examples of sites using ARIA?
>>
>> I am new to the list so feel free to refer me to the archives.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Alan Dyck
>>
>
>
>

From: LSnider
Date: Fri, Sep 02 2011 2:21PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

I have wanted to ask this for a while, so this is the perfect time...In
terms of headings, let's say my page does this:

Title of Page (H1)
Category A (h2)
Sub Category A2 (h3)
Category B (h2)
Sub Category B2 (h3)

This makes sense in terms of how the page's content is shown, but on a
screen reader the H2s and H3s then get confused.

Is there a better way to do it?

Cheers

Lisa

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Will Grignon < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> This sounds correct.
>
> As a result, I tend to just use "h" to skip through headings.
>
> While nesting headings is a plus, since it can give a user an idea of the
> relative importance of headings and hence sections, the most important
> thing
> for page-navigation is to format section titles or key links with
> heading-levels and label these headings with clear and descriptive labels,
> so a JAWS-user can easily run through a web-page by skipping from heading
> to
> heading and get a good idea about what is on the page, how it is laid out,
> and where the part to which he wants to go is located.
>
>

From: Will Grignon
Date: Fri, Sep 02 2011 2:48PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Why would the H2 and H3 headings get confused?

A screen reader user could either explore the page following the nesting of
headings by typing "1," "2," "3," etc., or simply navigate down through the
headings by using "h" (which would give him the basic layout of the page as
well as the relative values of the formatted headings.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of LSnider
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:20 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline

I have wanted to ask this for a while, so this is the perfect time...In
terms of headings, let's say my page does this:

Title of Page (H1)
Category A (h2)
Sub Category A2 (h3)
Category B (h2)
Sub Category B2 (h3)

This makes sense in terms of how the page's content is shown, but on a
screen reader the H2s and H3s then get confused.

Is there a better way to do it?

Cheers

Lisa

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Will Grignon
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> This sounds correct.
>
> As a result, I tend to just use "h" to skip through headings.
>
> While nesting headings is a plus, since it can give a user an idea of
> the relative importance of headings and hence sections, the most
> important thing for page-navigation is to format section titles or key
> links with heading-levels and label these headings with clear and
> descriptive labels, so a JAWS-user can easily run through a web-page
> by skipping from heading to heading and get a good idea about what is
> on the page, how it is laid out, and where the part to which he wants
> to go is located.
>
>

From: LSnider
Date: Fri, Sep 02 2011 6:24PM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Will,

I guess I was worried about the shortcut for listing all the headings, then
they would show as H1, H2, H3, H2, H3 so out of order :)

Cheers

Lisa

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Will Grignon < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Why would the H2 and H3 headings get confused?
>
> A screen reader user could either explore the page following the nesting of
> headings by typing "1," "2," "3," etc., or simply navigate down through the
> headings by using "h" (which would give him the basic layout of the page as
> well as the relative values of the formatted headings.
>
>

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Sat, Sep 03 2011 4:33AM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

But they wouldn't be out of order.

We can choose to move from H1 to another H1 in effect reviewing content at the highest structural level. We can do the same with other heading levels, but the document as a whole IS structured moving from H1 to H2 to H3 to H2 to H3.

So we can choose to get a list of headings and review or move to headings through a "complete" view of the document structure or we can "narrow our view" of the structure by moving through the document by specific heading levels.

In Word 2007 and 2010 you can also get a list of headings to review the structure of content by using the Navigation Pane, Alt + W, K. This would be "equal" to the screen reader functionality of listing headings.

Cheers, Karen

Out of Office, Sent from my iPad

On 2011-09-02, at 8:24 PM, LSnider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Will,
>
> I guess I was worried about the shortcut for listing all the headings, then
> they would show as H1, H2, H3, H2, H3 so out of order :)
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Will Grignon < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>
>> Why would the H2 and H3 headings get confused?
>>
>> A screen reader user could either explore the page following the nesting of
>> headings by typing "1," "2," "3," etc., or simply navigate down through the
>> headings by using "h" (which would give him the basic layout of the page as
>> well as the relative values of the formatted headings.
>>
>>
>

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Sat, Sep 03 2011 4:45AM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Oops, in Word 2003 it is called the Document Pane and I forget where it is located. In Word 2007 it is also called the Document Map but is on the View Ribbon. In Word 2010 the name changed to Navigation Pane.

Cheers, Karen

Out of Office, Sent from my iPad

On 2011-09-03, at 6:33 AM, Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> But they wouldn't be out of order.
>
> We can choose to move from H1 to another H1 in effect reviewing content at the highest structural level. We can do the same with other heading levels, but the document as a whole IS structured moving from H1 to H2 to H3 to H2 to H3.
>
> So we can choose to get a list of headings and review or move to headings through a "complete" view of the document structure or we can "narrow our view" of the structure by moving through the document by specific heading levels.
>
> In Word 2007 and 2010 you can also get a list of headings to review the structure of content by using the Navigation Pane, Alt + W, K. This would be "equal" to the screen reader functionality of listing headings.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> Out of Office, Sent from my iPad
>
> On 2011-09-02, at 8:24 PM, LSnider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hi Will,
>>
>> I guess I was worried about the shortcut for listing all the headings, then
>> they would show as H1, H2, H3, H2, H3 so out of order :)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Will Grignon < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
>>
>>> Why would the H2 and H3 headings get confused?
>>>
>>> A screen reader user could either explore the page following the nesting of
>>> headings by typing "1," "2," "3," etc., or simply navigate down through the
>>> headings by using "h" (which would give him the basic layout of the page as
>>> well as the relative values of the formatted headings.
>>>
>>>
>>

From: LSnider
Date: Sat, Sep 03 2011 8:57AM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Karen,

Ah okay, that makes sense.

Thanks for that tip, that will help me a lot.

Cheers

Lisa

On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 3:33 AM, Karlen Communications <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> But they wouldn't be out of order.
>
> We can choose to move from H1 to another H1 in effect reviewing content at
> the highest structural level. We can do the same with other heading levels,
> but the document as a whole IS structured moving from H1 to H2 to H3 to H2
> to H3.
>
> So we can choose to get a list of headings and review or move to headings
> through a "complete" view of the document structure or we can "narrow our
> view" of the structure by moving through the document by specific heading
> levels.
>
> In Word 2007 and 2010 you can also get a list of headings to review the
> structure of content by using the Navigation Pane, Alt + W, K. This would be
> "equal" to the screen reader functionality of listing headings.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> Out of Office, Sent from my iPad
>
>

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Fri, Sep 30 2011 12:36AM
Subject: Re: how screen readers navigate by headline
← Previous message | No next message

as a JAWS user the proper headings help to organize the page and as I
frequently skip over content using the arrow keys and other features they
provide continuity.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela French" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 2:47 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] how screen readers navigate by headline


>I am aware that screen readers (at least JAWS) provide a means for users to
>navigate by heading. I am also aware of the benefits of choosing the
>correcting heading level to provide the reader a clear sense of document
>structure. What I'm wondering though is, by what means does the screen
>reader user have of getting the big picture sense of document structure
>other than navigating through? As a sighted user, I ascertain a document's
>structure by the logical, relative use of headline font size and design.
>
> When a page is being navigated by headlines, how much importance do you
> place in the actual heading level that is read to you, or are you more
> interested in the content of the headline to get context? In other words,
> how important is proper heading levels to you? Or do you just ignore
> them?
>
> I am preparing some accessibility training for our site's content editors
> (we use a CMS) and I am aiming to give practical examples of obstacles
> that are presented to users when content isn't marked up correctly.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
>
>