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Thread: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order

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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Vincent Young
Date: Wed, Sep 21 2011 12:21PM
Subject: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
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So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:

[thead] [tfoot] [tbody]

I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this cause
any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed anywhere such as
on WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody for
semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
differently through CSS with these elements in place.
Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?




--
WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
Vincent Young - Principal
33 E. Lincoln St.
Columbus, OH 43215
p: 614.607.3400
f: 339-674-3400
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
w: http://www.webhipster.com

From: Angela French
Date: Wed, Sep 21 2011 1:06PM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
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As a sighted person, when I see a footer on a table, I read it before I look at the table data and I ask "why aren't 'footers' put at the top?" :-)

>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:webaim-forum-
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Vincent Young
>Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 11:24 AM
>To: WebAIM Discussion List
>Subject: [WebAIM] Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
>
>So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
>
>[thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
>
>I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
>tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this cause
>any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed anywhere such as on
>WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody for
>semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
>differently through CSS with these elements in place.
>Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
>
>
>
>
>--
>WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
>Vincent Young - Principal
>33 E. Lincoln St.
>Columbus, OH 43215
>p: 614.607.3400
>f: 339-674-3400
>e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>w: http://www.webhipster.com
>

From: Vincent Young
Date: Wed, Sep 21 2011 6:51PM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
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Thank you for the input Angela. As of right now, I'm going to write this
off as a non issue. The following code order: thead/tfoot/tbody poses no
usability issues for all users.

On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> As a sighted person, when I see a footer on a table, I read it before I
> look at the table data and I ask "why aren't 'footers' put at the top?" :-)
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:webaim-forum-
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Vincent Young
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 11:24 AM
> >To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >Subject: [WebAIM] Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
> >
> >So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
> >
> >[thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
> >
> >I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
> >tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this
> cause
> >any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed anywhere such
> as on
> >WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody for
> >semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
> >differently through CSS with these elements in place.
> >Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
> >Vincent Young - Principal
> >33 E. Lincoln St.
> >Columbus, OH 43215
> >p: 614.607.3400
> >f: 339-674-3400
> >e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >w: http://www.webhipster.com
> >

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Sep 22 2011 2:45AM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
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hi vincent,

[thead] [tfoot] [tbody] elements are not included in the accessble tree
exposed to AT. (and example of what is exposed by Firefox can be seen using
the DOM inspector > accessible tree feature.

I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
elements.

I would suggest that the only thing that affects table reading order is the
order of rows and cells in the code.

regards
Stevef

On 21 September 2011 19:23, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
>
> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
>
> I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
> tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this
> cause
> any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed anywhere such as
> on WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody for
> semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
> differently through CSS with these elements in place.
> Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
>
>
>
>
> --
> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
> Vincent Young - Principal
> 33 E. Lincoln St.
> Columbus, OH 43215
> p: 614.607.3400
> f: 339-674-3400
> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> w: http://www.webhipster.com
>

From: subhash chhetri
Date: Thu, Sep 22 2011 7:00AM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
← Previous message | Next message →

On 9/21/11, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
>
> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
>
> I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
> tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this cause
> any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed anywhere such as
> on WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody for
> semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
> differently through CSS with these elements in place.
> Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
>
>
>
>
> --
> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
> Vincent Young - Principal
> 33 E. Lincoln St.
> Columbus, OH 43215
> p: 614.607.3400
> f: 339-674-3400
> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> w: http://www.webhipster.com
>

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Thu, Sep 22 2011 9:39AM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
← Previous message | Next message →

>I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
Window-Eyes does. It announces when one crosses over from thead into
tbody and into tfoot.
Sailesh

On 9/22/11, Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> hi vincent,
>
> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody] elements are not included in the accessble tree
> exposed to AT. (and example of what is exposed by Firefox can be seen using
> the DOM inspector > accessible tree feature.
>
> I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
> elements.
>
> I would suggest that the only thing that affects table reading order is the
> order of rows and cells in the code.
>
> regards
> Stevef
>
> On 21 September 2011 19:23, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
>>
>> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
>>
>> I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
>> tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this
>> cause
>> any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed anywhere such
>> as
>> on WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody
>> for
>> semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
>> differently through CSS with these elements in place.
>> Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
>> Vincent Young - Principal
>> 33 E. Lincoln St.
>> Columbus, OH 43215
>> p: 614.607.3400
>> f: 339-674-3400
>> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> w: http://www.webhipster.com
>>

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Sep 22 2011 9:51AM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
← Previous message | Next message →

thanks Sailesh, thats good to know.

On 22 September 2011 16:41, Sailesh Panchang < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> >I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
> Window-Eyes does. It announces when one crosses over from thead into
> tbody and into tfoot.
> Sailesh
>
> On 9/22/11, Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > hi vincent,
> >
> > [thead] [tfoot] [tbody] elements are not included in the accessble tree
> > exposed to AT. (and example of what is exposed by Firefox can be seen
> using
> > the DOM inspector > accessible tree feature.
> >
> > I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
> > elements.
> >
> > I would suggest that the only thing that affects table reading order is
> the
> > order of rows and cells in the code.
> >
> > regards
> > Stevef
> >
> > On 21 September 2011 19:23, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
> >>
> >> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
> >>
> >> I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
> >> tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this
> >> cause
> >> any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed anywhere such
> >> as
> >> on WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody
> >> for
> >> semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
> >> differently through CSS with these elements in place.
> >> Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
> >> Vincent Young - Principal
> >> 33 E. Lincoln St.
> >> Columbus, OH 43215
> >> p: 614.607.3400
> >> f: 339-674-3400
> >> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> w: http://www.webhipster.com
> >>

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Sep 22 2011 10:51AM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
← Previous message | Next message →

Steve - We happen to be discussing <thead>, etc. where I work in terms of accessibility. What happens when an AT user encounters <tfooter>?

Angela French



>I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
>elements.
>
>I would suggest that the only thing that affects table reading order is the
>order of rows and cells in the code.
>
>regards
>Stevef
>
>On 21 September 2011 19:23, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>wrote:
>
>> So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
>>
>> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
>>
>> I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
>> tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this
>> cause any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed
>> anywhere such as on WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use
>> thead/tfoot/tbody for
>> semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
>> differently through CSS with these elements in place.
>> Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
>> Vincent Young - Principal
>> 33 E. Lincoln St.
>> Columbus, OH 43215
>> p: 614.607.3400
>> f: 339-674-3400
>> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> w: http://www.webhipster.com
>>

From: Vincent Young
Date: Thu, Sep 22 2011 11:39AM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
← Previous message | Next message →

> Steve - We happen to be discussing <thead>, etc. where I work in terms of
accessibility.
> What happens when an AT user encounters <tfooter>?

It seems that the <thead><tfoot><tbody> information can be exposed, but it
depends on the browser and AT that will convey this information to the
user. As Sailesh pointed out, Window-Eyes appears to be conveying this
information, on, I'm guessing, Internet Explorer. Other AT/browser
combinations parse the page as if these elements do not exist, so the table
rows and cells, in code order, is what will be read. Steve could confirm.

From my perspective, I think <thead><tfoot><tbody> information is beneficial
to the user and should be exposed and at least be a configuration that can
be turned on in AT.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Steve - We happen to be discussing <thead>, etc. where I work in terms of
> accessibility. What happens when an AT user encounters <tfooter>?
>
> Angela French
>
>
>
> >I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
> >elements.
> >
> >I would suggest that the only thing that affects table reading order is
> the
> >order of rows and cells in the code.
> >
> >regards
> >Stevef
> >
> >On 21 September 2011 19:23, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
> >>
> >> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
> >>
> >> I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved. Assistive
> >> tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody information. Does this
> >> cause any usability issues? I've not seen this really discussed
> >> anywhere such as on WebAim's accessible tables article. I tend to use
> >> thead/tfoot/tbody for
> >> semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
> >> differently through CSS with these elements in place.
> >> Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
> >> Vincent Young - Principal
> >> 33 E. Lincoln St.
> >> Columbus, OH 43215
> >> p: 614.607.3400
> >> f: 339-674-3400
> >> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> w: http://www.webhipster.com
> >>

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Sep 22 2011 11:51AM
Subject: Re: Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading Order
← Previous message | No next message

Thank you.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:webaim-forum-
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Vincent Young
>Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 10:37 AM
>To: WebAIM Discussion List
>Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Table Header/Footer/Body Placement and Reading
>Order
>
>> Steve - We happen to be discussing <thead>, etc. where I work in terms
>> of
>accessibility.
>> What happens when an AT user encounters <tfooter>?
>
>It seems that the <thead><tfoot><tbody> information can be exposed, but it
>depends on the browser and AT that will convey this information to the user.
>As Sailesh pointed out, Window-Eyes appears to be conveying this
>information, on, I'm guessing, Internet Explorer. Other AT/browser
>combinations parse the page as if these elements do not exist, so the table
>rows and cells, in code order, is what will be read. Steve could confirm.
>
>From my perspective, I think <thead><tfoot><tbody> information is
>beneficial to the user and should be exposed and at least be a configuration
>that can be turned on in AT.
>
>On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Steve - We happen to be discussing <thead>, etc. where I work in terms
>> of accessibility. What happens when an AT user encounters <tfooter>?
>>
>> Angela French
>>
>>
>>
>> >I don't know of any AT that take notice of the [thead] [tfoot]
>> >[tbody] elements.
>> >
>> >I would suggest that the only thing that affects table reading order
>> >is
>> the
>> >order of rows and cells in the code.
>> >
>> >regards
>> >Stevef
>> >
>> >On 21 September 2011 19:23, Vincent Young < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> So the HTML specification says construct tables in the following order:
>> >>
>> >> [thead] [tfoot] [tbody]
>> >>
>> >> I've user tested tables, but none when tfoot was involved.
>> >> Assistive tecnology tends to read tfoot before any tbody
>> >> information. Does this cause any usability issues? I've not seen
>> >> this really discussed anywhere such as on WebAim's accessible
>> >> tables article. I tend to use thead/tfoot/tbody for
>> >> semantic purposes, I guess. It's also really easy to style each
>> >> differently through CSS with these elements in place.
>> >> Thoughts/opinions/whatevers?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> WebHipster Interactive, ltd.
>> >> Vincent Young - Principal
>> >> 33 E. Lincoln St.
>> >> Columbus, OH 43215
>> >> p: 614.607.3400
>> >> f: 339-674-3400
>> >> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> w: http://www.webhipster.com
>> >>