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Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: Paul Bohman
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2000 7:23PM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
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Although we have taken steps to make sure that the WebAIM site is
accessible, we sometimes find that our efforts are not as "perfect" as we
thought they were. Recently, a blind individual went to the site to sign up
for the list serv, and, although he was able to do so successfully, it
apparently was not a totally user-friendly experience for him. In an effort
to share whatever insight that can be gained from this situation, I am
posting the recent (and hopefully continuing) dialogue to the group.
--- His first message was:
"I tried to subscribe but I found the very confusing with a screen reader. I
have no idea if I did it correctly. Can I help you in designing this process
so it is clearer?"
--- His second message was:
"Apparently I did better than I feared as I got a message from the system.
When I found myself in a couple edit fields, I didn't have a clue what I was
expected to write . . . Usually the screen reader speaks something back. I
am old fashioned enough that I'm not accustomed to accessing a list via a
web page. I am used to using e-mail to sub."
--- My response to his experience follows:
[the page in question, by the way, is
http://www.webaim.org/training/WebAcc.htm]
I guess that you were a good test for the accessibility of our site, and
perhaps we didn't do as well as we thought we had.
I'll describe the organization of the page, and you tell me if this matched
your experience.
First is a graphic which links to the WebAIM home page, then a link which
lets you skip the main menu. The main menu comes after that. Then there is a
link which lets you skip the submenu, followed by the submenu itself. Then
you are at the main content of the page.
So, in theory, you could hear the image alt tag, then "skip main menu" then
"skip submenu" then the main content. This was done so that a person can
bypass the menu items even though these items are the first items on the
page.
Once you arrive at the main content on the list serv subscribe page, you are
presented with a brief explanation and a link which opens up your email
program and allows you to subscribe.
That's how it is supposed to work, anyway.
The edit field which you encountered was a part of the submenu. It is the
site search function. In this case, it was unrelated to your "mission" of
subscribing to the list serv.
I appreciate your feedback on the site (e.g. your difficulties). This is
valuable to us. After hearing my description of our design and the thought
process that went into it, how did our concept differ from your experience?
I would really appreciate the feedback, and I think it would benefit
everyone. If you could respond to the listserv
( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ), that would be great.
Sincerely,
Paul Bohman
Web Accessibility in Mind (Web AIM)
www.webaim.org

From: Prof Norm Coombs
Date: Tue, Feb 08 2000 7:26PM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
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Hi Paul and all:
I am not sure I can explain this very clearly.
When I accessed the page the screen reader read the data quite well. Then,
the problem came with site navigation. You would really have to sit beside
me and listen to what happens when I tab through the links.
When you tab from one item to another, the screen reader skips the text
between links and reads the next highlighted item, the next active link.
I tabbed along and suddenly was surprised when the screen reader told me I
was in an edit field but gave me no clue about the field. I backed up on
tabe and that was something about online courses or something. I tabbed
back to the edit field and wondered if I was supposed to put in a course
name or what? I tabbed one more time and the word spoken was search. It
didn't say 'submit' but I am guessing it was the submit button and the edit
field was for the search. Nothing gave me a clue to expect this and maybe
my guess is wrong.
I pondered and used the roaming cursor to try to locate where I was. that
curser did not indicate where the edit field was but did read the titles
like online course and search and I guessed I must be in between them but
did not know.
I decided to tab and explore more. I then got what sounded like a send
mail link sending mail to the listserv but again, my second cursor was no
help.
Frequently an edit field seems to have a label associated with it . .
Frequently when I hit an edit field, it says something like:
'name'
address'
'search field'.
Norm
At 07:23 PM 2/8/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Although we have taken steps to make sure that the WebAIM site is
>accessible, we sometimes find that our efforts are not as "perfect" as we
>thought they were. Recently, a blind individual went to the site to sign up
>for the list serv, and, although he was able to do so successfully, it
>apparently was not a totally user-friendly experience for him. In an effort
>to share whatever insight that can be gained from this situation, I am
>posting the recent (and hopefully continuing) dialogue to the group.
>
>--- His first message was:
>
>"I tried to subscribe but I found the very confusing with a screen reader. I
>have no idea if I did it correctly. Can I help you in designing this process
>so it is clearer?"
>
>--- His second message was:
>
>"Apparently I did better than I feared as I got a message from the system.
>When I found myself in a couple edit fields, I didn't have a clue what I was
>expected to write . . . Usually the screen reader speaks something back. I
>am old fashioned enough that I'm not accustomed to accessing a list via a
>web page. I am used to using e-mail to sub."
>
>--- My response to his experience follows:
>
>[the page in question, by the way, is
>http://www.webaim.org/training/WebAcc.htm]
>
>I guess that you were a good test for the accessibility of our site, and
>perhaps we didn't do as well as we thought we had.
>
>I'll describe the organization of the page, and you tell me if this matched
>your experience.
>
>First is a graphic which links to the WebAIM home page, then a link which
>lets you skip the main menu. The main menu comes after that. Then there is a
>link which lets you skip the submenu, followed by the submenu itself. Then
>you are at the main content of the page.
>
>So, in theory, you could hear the image alt tag, then "skip main menu" then
>"skip submenu" then the main content. This was done so that a person can
>bypass the menu items even though these items are the first items on the
>page.
>
>Once you arrive at the main content on the list serv subscribe page, you are
>presented with a brief explanation and a link which opens up your email
>program and allows you to subscribe.
>
>That's how it is supposed to work, anyway.
>
>The edit field which you encountered was a part of the submenu. It is the
>site search function. In this case, it was unrelated to your "mission" of
>subscribing to the list serv.
>
>I appreciate your feedback on the site (e.g. your difficulties). This is
>valuable to us. After hearing my description of our design and the thought
>process that went into it, how did our concept differ from your experience?
>
>I would really appreciate the feedback, and I think it would benefit
>everyone. If you could respond to the listserv
>( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ), that would be great.
>
>Sincerely,
>Paul Bohman
>Web Accessibility in Mind (Web AIM)
>www.webaim.org
>
>
>
>

From: Daren
Date: Wed, Feb 09 2000 8:33AM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
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What kind of screen reader is being used in this situation? Lynx or
something else? I would like to try it out myself and see what is going
on.
Daren

From: Prof Norm Coombs
Date: Wed, Feb 09 2000 9:09AM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
← Previous message | Next message →

The screen reader is JFW Jaws for windows running over explorer 5.
Norman
At 08:33 AM 2/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>What kind of screen reader is being used in this situation? Lynx or
>something else? I would like to try it out myself and see what is going
>on.
>
>Daren
>
>
>

From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Feb 09 2000 9:38AM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
← Previous message | Next message →

The reason that Norm's screen reader was unable to figure out what the edit
field was for is because we had not put any text next to it. There is only
an edit field followed by a button. In our case, the text was in the button
itself ("search"), but, as we discovered, this is insufficient. We had
overlooked an important part of making forms accessible.
In order for screen readers to "know" what the edit field is for, there has
to be some sort of label for the field. In fact, this is part of the WebAIM
guidelines for higher education institutions, and we simply overlooked it.
This particular guideline can be found at:
http://www.webaim.org/guidelines/#_FORMS. You can also find a piece of
example code on this page which shows how to make edit fields accessible.
We overlooked this aspect of accessibility on another site as well: The
Center for Persons with Disabilities (www.cpd.usu.edu). I have made the
correction on this site, according to the guidelines. I now realize that we
will have to through the entire C.P.D. site and look for similar oversights
on other forms.
The webmaster for WebAIM will be making the changes to the WebAIM site soon
as well.
I'm glad that Norm was able to bring this issue to our attention. Thanks,
Norm! By the way, Norm, you did guess right about the purpose for the edit
field. I'm just sorry that you had to guess.
Sincerely,
Paul Bohman
Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM)
Utah State University
----- Original Message -----
From: Daren < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM accessibility forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site

> What kind of screen reader is being used in this situation? Lynx or
> something else? I would like to try it out myself and see what is going
> on.
>
> Daren
>
>

From: Prof Norm Coombs
Date: Wed, Feb 09 2000 9:55AM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
← Previous message | Next message →

I want to point another item I don't understand. It may be a difference
between using a mouse and the tab.
Here is the url: http://www.webaim.org/guidelines/
When I tab along, about the 8th tab my screen reader tells me it is a link
but it seems to have no alt-text, but that is only one part of the problem.
When I press enter, nothing seems to happen at all
To clarify, the link before this link says Utah State University and the
one after says skip main menu.
If it is a link, I don't know why nothing happens. If it isn't a link, I
wonder why it is tricking the screen reader.
Norman
At 09:38 AM 2/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>The reason that Norm's screen reader was unable to figure out what the edit
>field was for is because we had not put any text next to it. There is only
>an edit field followed by a button. In our case, the text was in the button
>itself ("search"), but, as we discovered, this is insufficient. We had
>overlooked an important part of making forms accessible.
>
>In order for screen readers to "know" what the edit field is for, there has
>to be some sort of label for the field. In fact, this is part of the WebAIM
>guidelines for higher education institutions, and we simply overlooked it.
>This particular guideline can be found at:
>http://www.webaim.org/guidelines/#_FORMS. You can also find a piece of
>example code on this page which shows how to make edit fields accessible.
>
>We overlooked this aspect of accessibility on another site as well: The
>Center for Persons with Disabilities (www.cpd.usu.edu). I have made the
>correction on this site, according to the guidelines. I now realize that we
>will have to through the entire C.P.D. site and look for similar oversights
>on other forms.
>
>The webmaster for WebAIM will be making the changes to the WebAIM site soon
>as well.
>
>I'm glad that Norm was able to bring this issue to our attention. Thanks,
>Norm! By the way, Norm, you did guess right about the purpose for the edit
>field. I'm just sorry that you had to guess.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Paul Bohman
>Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM)
>Utah State University
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Daren < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>To: WebAIM accessibility forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 8:33 AM
>Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
>
>
>> What kind of screen reader is being used in this situation? Lynx or
>> something else? I would like to try it out myself and see what is going
>> on.
>>
>> Daren
>>
>>
>
>
>

From: Paul Bohman
Date: Wed, Feb 09 2000 11:29AM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
← Previous message | No next message

Ok, I know why it's doing this. On the page which you mentioned, we had set
the tab order using the HTML tag "tabindex". This is a good thing. The
problem is that we accidentally gave a tabindex number to one of the anchors
(link destinations). Tabindexes don't apply to anchors, only to the links
themselves. This was a case of human error.
Our erroneous tag looks like this:
<a name="submenu" tabindex="8"></a>
For the benefit of the group, a good tabindex looks like this:
<a href="http://www.webaim.org" tabindex="1">WebAIM home page</a>
<a href="http://www.w3.org/wai" tabindex="2">Web Accessibility Initiative
Home Page</a>
The above tags create two links, and specify the tab order for people who
are using the keyboard instead of the mouse. This can come in handy if, for
some reason, the normal tab order of your page is not the most logical
order. If the normal tab order is logical, then it probably is not necessary
to set a "tabindex" order.
To find out what the tab order is on your page, just go to the page and keep
on hitting the tab key. If all goes well, the tab key will take you through
the links in a logical fashion. If it doesn't, you may want to look at
either putting in a "tabindex" tag or in re-ordering the items on the page.
Sincerely,
Paul Bohman
Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM)
Utah State University
----- Original Message -----
From: Prof Norm Coombs < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM accessibility forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site

> I want to point another item I don't understand. It may be a difference
> between using a mouse and the tab.
>
> Here is the url: http://www.webaim.org/guidelines/
>
> When I tab along, about the 8th tab my screen reader tells me it is a link
> but it seems to have no alt-text, but that is only one part of the
problem.
> When I press enter, nothing seems to happen at all
>
> To clarify, the link before this link says Utah State University and the
> one after says skip main menu.
>
> If it is a link, I don't know why nothing happens. If it isn't a link, I
> wonder why it is tricking the screen reader.
>
> Norman
>
> At 09:38 AM 2/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
> >The reason that Norm's screen reader was unable to figure out what the
edit
> >field was for is because we had not put any text next to it. There is
only
> >an edit field followed by a button. In our case, the text was in the
button
> >itself ("search"), but, as we discovered, this is insufficient. We had
> >overlooked an important part of making forms accessible.
> >
> >In order for screen readers to "know" what the edit field is for, there
has
> >to be some sort of label for the field. In fact, this is part of the
WebAIM
> >guidelines for higher education institutions, and we simply overlooked
it.
> >This particular guideline can be found at:
> >http://www.webaim.org/guidelines/#_FORMS. You can also find a piece of
> >example code on this page which shows how to make edit fields accessible.
> >
> >We overlooked this aspect of accessibility on another site as well: The
> >Center for Persons with Disabilities (www.cpd.usu.edu). I have made the
> >correction on this site, according to the guidelines. I now realize that
we
> >will have to through the entire C.P.D. site and look for similar
oversights
> >on other forms.
> >
> >The webmaster for WebAIM will be making the changes to the WebAIM site
soon
> >as well.
> >
> >I'm glad that Norm was able to bring this issue to our attention. Thanks,
> >Norm! By the way, Norm, you did guess right about the purpose for the
edit
> >field. I'm just sorry that you had to guess.
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >Paul Bohman
> >Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM)
> >Utah State University
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Daren < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >To: WebAIM accessibility forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 8:33 AM
> >Subject: Re: Difficulty with the WebAIM site
> >
> >
> >> What kind of screen reader is being used in this situation? Lynx or
> >> something else? I would like to try it out myself and see what is going
> >> on.
> >>
> >> Daren
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>