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Thread: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired

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Number of posts in this thread: 22 (In chronological order)

From: samir menon
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 6:20PM
Subject: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
No previous message | Next message →

Hi All,

I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google Science
Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired. As you
may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long time, and
tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from participating in
online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an easier
audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs to
provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In that way, my project
helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired and
the hearing impaired.

Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take the
ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users as
CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of others to
verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and help me test
the system here<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html>;
[1].

You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any feedback
you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the bottom of
[1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].

Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
appreciate any and all feedback!

Thanks so much!
~Samir Menon

[1] -
http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html

[2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 6:37PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello:
I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the page and
edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button and a give up
button how do I play the audio Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And
Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired

Hi All,

I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google Science
Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired. As you
may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long time, and
tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from participating in
online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an easier
audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs
to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In that way, my project
helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired and the
hearing impaired.

Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take the
ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users as
CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of others to
verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and help me test
the system
here<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_b
e_fixed.html>
[1].

You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any feedback
you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the bottom
of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].

Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
appreciate any and all feedback!

Thanks so much!
~Samir Menon

[1] -
http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fix
ed.html

[2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Elle
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 6:44PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Samir:

I just wanted to tell you, as someone who has been a rather outspoken
critic of CAPTCHAs, that I find your project idea really creative and
inspiring. Once the technical pieces are worked out, I look forward to
seeing how it will both benefit the groups of users that you mentioned and
hopefully increase the overall usability of CAPTCHA for everyone. In
short, what a cool idea!

I'll do a little testing and provide some feedback shortly.


Cheers,
Elle

If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast
and endless sea.
- Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello:
> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the page and
> edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button and a give up
> button how do I play the audio Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And
> Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google Science
> Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired. As you
> may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long time, and
> tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from participating in
> online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an easier
> audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs
> to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In that way, my project
> helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired and the
> hearing impaired.
>
> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take the
> ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users as
> CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of others to
> verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and help me test
> the system
> here<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_b
> e_fixed.html>
> [1].
>
> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any feedback
> you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the bottom
> of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
>
> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
> appreciate any and all feedback!
>
> Thanks so much!
> ~Samir Menon
>
> [1] -
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fix
> ed.html
>
> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >

From: samir menon
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 7:17PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm not sure why you're not able to play the audio, Lucy;
Most browsers support mp3 playing. (IE 9+, Firefox 20+, Chrome, Safari)

Do you think I should add a download for the mp3 so that people can play it
if they don't have a supported browser they can download it?

I could alternatively use a flash player to play the audio, but I had
assumed that most people using screenreading technology don't have Flash
enabled.


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello:
> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the page and
> edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button and a give up
> button how do I play the audio Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And
> Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google Science
> Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired. As you
> may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long time, and
> tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from participating in
> online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an easier
> audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs
> to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In that way, my project
> helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired and the
> hearing impaired.
>
> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take the
> ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users as
> CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of others to
> verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and help me test
> the system
> here<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_b
> e_fixed.html>
> [1].
>
> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any feedback
> you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the bottom
> of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
>
> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
> appreciate any and all feedback!
>
> Thanks so much!
> ~Samir Menon
>
> [1] -
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fix
> ed.html
>
> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >

From: Elle
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 7:24PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Samir:

I believe I understand why Lucy's experiencing some problems accessing your
audio content. There are some technical accessibility issues with your page
that need to be addressed first before you will get much out of user
testing. After just a few minutes, here are some starting points to fix
the page, things that I would consider must-have support features:


- *Perceivable:* I recommend some more browser testing if you want this
to be a popular alternative to CAPTCHA solutions in use today. Using
Windows, Firefox 20, the audio player does not visually display (screenshot
of page:http://i.imgur.com/Qef7IVL.png).

- *Operable:* The audio player is not keyboard accessible using Chrome
26, Firefox 20, or Internet Explorer 10. Some recommended reading on
keyboard accessibility, ARIA, and focus path (because I suspect that will
be the next hurdle for you):
-- Terrill Thompson's accessible audio player (just tested it again,
still working for me!): http://www.terrillthompson.com/music/aap/
-- ARIA best practices (and focus path management):
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/

- *Understandable:* The label for the text entry is missing a FOR
attribute that will tie it to the input field's ID attribute. These two
elements must be associated programmatically in order for all users to
understand their relationship. For example, instead
of <label>Caption:</label>, you should have <label
for="responsenew">Caption:</label> where "responsenew" is the ID attribute
for the text input field.

- *Robust:* I think it would be beneficial if you did consider offering
multiple ways that users could access the audio content. Your suggestion
about an MP3 may be the answer. Either way, please ensure that your CAPTCHA
does not depend on a very specific combination of browsers, technologies,
or assistive technology to support it.


Again, that wasn't a full review or anything, but I figured it would help
to provide you some initial technical feedback before you run into any more
problems.


All the best,
Elle

If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast
and endless sea.
- Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Samir:
>
> I just wanted to tell you, as someone who has been a rather outspoken
> critic of CAPTCHAs, that I find your project idea really creative and
> inspiring. Once the technical pieces are worked out, I look forward to
> seeing how it will both benefit the groups of users that you mentioned and
> hopefully increase the overall usability of CAPTCHA for everyone. In
> short, what a cool idea!
>
> I'll do a little testing and provide some feedback shortly.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Elle
>
> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
> divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast
> and endless sea.
> - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hello:
>> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the page and
>> edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button and a give up
>> button how do I play the audio Lucy
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Access Analyst
>> IST-Campus Technology Services
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And
>> Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google Science
>> Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired. As you
>> may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long time, and
>> tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from participating in
>> online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an easier
>> audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs
>> to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In that way, my project
>> helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired and the
>> hearing impaired.
>>
>> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take the
>> ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users as
>> CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of others to
>> verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and help me test
>> the system
>> here<
>> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_b
>> e_fixed.html<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html>;
>> >
>> [1].
>>
>> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any feedback
>> you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the bottom
>> of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
>>
>> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
>> appreciate any and all feedback!
>>
>> Thanks so much!
>> ~Samir Menon
>>
>> [1] -
>> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fix
>> ed.html<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html>;
>>
>> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
>> >> >> messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> >>
>
>

From: samir menon
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 7:42PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks so much for the feedback Elle!
You're right in saying that there definitely a bunch of ways I can make the
site more accesible. In some ways, it's a bit hypocritical of me to have a
page with such poor accessibility when my project is, in itself, about
making the web more accessible. I really like the accesible audio player
example that you sent me, so I'll probably try to use that to ensure that
everyone on every browser can hear the CAPTCHA.

I'll work on those issues tonight and tomorrow evening, and in addition to
what you mentioned, try actually using the page using a screenreader. I'll
update everyone when I finish.

Thanks,
~Samir



On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Samir:
>
> I believe I understand why Lucy's experiencing some problems accessing your
> audio content. There are some technical accessibility issues with your page
> that need to be addressed first before you will get much out of user
> testing. After just a few minutes, here are some starting points to fix
> the page, things that I would consider must-have support features:
>
>
> - *Perceivable:* I recommend some more browser testing if you want this
> to be a popular alternative to CAPTCHA solutions in use today. Using
> Windows, Firefox 20, the audio player does not visually display
> (screenshot
> of page:http://i.imgur.com/Qef7IVL.png).
>
> - *Operable:* The audio player is not keyboard accessible using Chrome
> 26, Firefox 20, or Internet Explorer 10. Some recommended reading on
> keyboard accessibility, ARIA, and focus path (because I suspect that
> will
> be the next hurdle for you):
> -- Terrill Thompson's accessible audio player (just tested it again,
> still working for me!): http://www.terrillthompson.com/music/aap/
> -- ARIA best practices (and focus path management):
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
>
> - *Understandable:* The label for the text entry is missing a FOR
> attribute that will tie it to the input field's ID attribute. These two
> elements must be associated programmatically in order for all users to
> understand their relationship. For example, instead
> of <label>Caption:</label>, you should have <label
> for="responsenew">Caption:</label> where "responsenew" is the ID
> attribute
> for the text input field.
>
> - *Robust:* I think it would be beneficial if you did consider offering
> multiple ways that users could access the audio content. Your suggestion
> about an MP3 may be the answer. Either way, please ensure that your
> CAPTCHA
> does not depend on a very specific combination of browsers,
> technologies,
> or assistive technology to support it.
>
>
> Again, that wasn't a full review or anything, but I figured it would help
> to provide you some initial technical feedback before you run into any more
> problems.
>
>
> All the best,
> Elle
>
> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
> divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast
> and endless sea.
> - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Samir:
> >
> > I just wanted to tell you, as someone who has been a rather outspoken
> > critic of CAPTCHAs, that I find your project idea really creative and
> > inspiring. Once the technical pieces are worked out, I look forward to
> > seeing how it will both benefit the groups of users that you mentioned
> and
> > hopefully increase the overall usability of CAPTCHA for everyone. In
> > short, what a cool idea!
> >
> > I'll do a little testing and provide some feedback shortly.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Elle
> >
> > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
> > divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
> vast
> > and endless sea.
> > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> Hello:
> >> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the page and
> >> edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button and a give up
> >> button how do I play the audio Lucy
> >>
> >> Lucia Greco
> >> Web Access Analyst
> >> IST-Campus Technology Services
> >> University of California, Berkeley
> >> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> >> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> >> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
> >> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And
> >> Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google
> Science
> >> Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired. As
> you
> >> may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long time,
> and
> >> tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from participating
> in
> >> online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an easier
> >> audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs
> >> to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In that way, my
> project
> >> helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired and the
> >> hearing impaired.
> >>
> >> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take the
> >> ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users as
> >> CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of others to
> >> verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and help me
> test
> >> the system
> >> here<
> >> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_b
> >> e_fixed.html<
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html
> >
> >> >
> >> [1].
> >>
> >> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any
> feedback
> >> you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the bottom
> >> of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
> >>
> >> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
> >> appreciate any and all feedback!
> >>
> >> Thanks so much!
> >> ~Samir Menon
> >>
> >> [1] -
> >>
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fix
> >> ed.html<
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html
> >
> >>
> >> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
> >> > >> > >> messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> > > >

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 8:06PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello:
I was in a hurry earlier and forgot to say I really do want this to work
and I will be your tester. Just send me anything you have and I can tell
you how it works I will even screen cast to show you how it works this is
a very important and ambitious project I really want it to work Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:42 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired
And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired

Thanks so much for the feedback Elle!
You're right in saying that there definitely a bunch of ways I can make
the site more accesible. In some ways, it's a bit hypocritical of me to
have a page with such poor accessibility when my project is, in itself,
about making the web more accessible. I really like the accesible audio
player example that you sent me, so I'll probably try to use that to
ensure that everyone on every browser can hear the CAPTCHA.

I'll work on those issues tonight and tomorrow evening, and in addition to
what you mentioned, try actually using the page using a screenreader. I'll
update everyone when I finish.

Thanks,
~Samir



On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Samir:
>
> I believe I understand why Lucy's experiencing some problems accessing
> your audio content. There are some technical accessibility issues with
> your page that need to be addressed first before you will get much out
> of user testing. After just a few minutes, here are some starting
> points to fix the page, things that I would consider must-have support
features:
>
>
> - *Perceivable:* I recommend some more browser testing if you want
this
> to be a popular alternative to CAPTCHA solutions in use today. Using
> Windows, Firefox 20, the audio player does not visually display
> (screenshot
> of page:http://i.imgur.com/Qef7IVL.png).
>
> - *Operable:* The audio player is not keyboard accessible using
Chrome
> 26, Firefox 20, or Internet Explorer 10. Some recommended reading on
> keyboard accessibility, ARIA, and focus path (because I suspect
> that will
> be the next hurdle for you):
> -- Terrill Thompson's accessible audio player (just tested it again,
> still working for me!): http://www.terrillthompson.com/music/aap/
> -- ARIA best practices (and focus path management):
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
>
> - *Understandable:* The label for the text entry is missing a FOR
> attribute that will tie it to the input field's ID attribute. These
two
> elements must be associated programmatically in order for all users
to
> understand their relationship. For example, instead
> of <label>Caption:</label>, you should have <label
> for="responsenew">Caption:</label> where "responsenew" is the ID
> attribute
> for the text input field.
>
> - *Robust:* I think it would be beneficial if you did consider
offering
> multiple ways that users could access the audio content. Your
suggestion
> about an MP3 may be the answer. Either way, please ensure that your
> CAPTCHA
> does not depend on a very specific combination of browsers,
> technologies,
> or assistive technology to support it.
>
>
> Again, that wasn't a full review or anything, but I figured it would
> help to provide you some initial technical feedback before you run
> into any more problems.
>
>
> All the best,
> Elle
>
> If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
> divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
> vast and endless sea.
> - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Samir:
> >
> > I just wanted to tell you, as someone who has been a rather
> > outspoken critic of CAPTCHAs, that I find your project idea really
> > creative and inspiring. Once the technical pieces are worked out, I
> > look forward to seeing how it will both benefit the groups of users
> > that you mentioned
> and
> > hopefully increase the overall usability of CAPTCHA for everyone.
> > In short, what a cool idea!
> >
> > I'll do a little testing and provide some feedback shortly.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Elle
> >
> > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather
> > wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn
> > for the
> vast
> > and endless sea.
> > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> >
> >> Hello:
> >> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the
> >> page and edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button
> >> and a give up button how do I play the audio Lucy
> >>
> >> Lucia Greco
> >> Web Access Analyst
> >> IST-Campus Technology Services
> >> University of California, Berkeley
> >> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> >> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> >> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir
> >> menon
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
> >> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired
> >> And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google
> Science
> >> Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired.
> >> As
> you
> >> may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long
> >> time,
> and
> >> tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from
> >> participating
> in
> >> online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an
> >> easier audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out
> >> the CAPTCHAs to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In
> >> that way, my
> project
> >> helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired
> >> and the hearing impaired.
> >>
> >> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take
> >> the ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to
> >> users as CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the
> >> responses of others to verify they are human. You can read the full
> >> explanation and help me
> test
> >> the system
> >> here<
> >> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can
> >> _b
> >> e_fixed.html<
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> _fixed.html
> >
> >> >
> >> [1].
> >>
> >> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any
> feedback
> >> you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the
> >> bottom of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
> >>
> >> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
> >> appreciate any and all feedback!
> >>
> >> Thanks so much!
> >> ~Samir Menon
> >>
> >> [1] -
> >>
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> _fix
> >> ed.html<
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> _fixed.html
> >
> >>
> >> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
> >> > >> > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > >> > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>
> >
> >
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Elle
Date: Wed, Apr 17 2013 9:41PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Samir:

I think it's great if you want to test your code with a screen reader.
There are free options available like VoiceOver that comes with every Mac
and NVDA <http://community.nvda-project.org/>; for Windows). However, I
would humbly suggest that testing with a screen reader as a developer is
really more for your own awareness. It will help you get familiar with how
screen readers interact with web pages. You actually have the best possible
scenario for getting screen reader testing results with Lucy's kind offer.
As a sighted user who works in the accessibility industry, I still would
never trust my own testing over someone who uses a screen reader for
everyday use. Because accessibility is part technical and part human
experience, I usually focus on the technical and try to learn from others'
interactions.

All the best, and congratulations again on your project idea! You've
restored my hope in a good reason to have CAPTCHA on a web site... maybe. :)


Cheers,
Elle

If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast
and endless sea.
- Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:06 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello:
> I was in a hurry earlier and forgot to say I really do want this to work
> and I will be your tester. Just send me anything you have and I can tell
> you how it works I will even screen cast to show you how it works this is
> a very important and ambitious project I really want it to work Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:42 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired
> And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
>
> Thanks so much for the feedback Elle!
> You're right in saying that there definitely a bunch of ways I can make
> the site more accesible. In some ways, it's a bit hypocritical of me to
> have a page with such poor accessibility when my project is, in itself,
> about making the web more accessible. I really like the accesible audio
> player example that you sent me, so I'll probably try to use that to
> ensure that everyone on every browser can hear the CAPTCHA.
>
> I'll work on those issues tonight and tomorrow evening, and in addition to
> what you mentioned, try actually using the page using a screenreader. I'll
> update everyone when I finish.
>
> Thanks,
> ~Samir
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Samir:
> >
> > I believe I understand why Lucy's experiencing some problems accessing
> > your audio content. There are some technical accessibility issues with
> > your page that need to be addressed first before you will get much out
> > of user testing. After just a few minutes, here are some starting
> > points to fix the page, things that I would consider must-have support
> features:
> >
> >
> > - *Perceivable:* I recommend some more browser testing if you want
> this
> > to be a popular alternative to CAPTCHA solutions in use today. Using
> > Windows, Firefox 20, the audio player does not visually display
> > (screenshot
> > of page:http://i.imgur.com/Qef7IVL.png).
> >
> > - *Operable:* The audio player is not keyboard accessible using
> Chrome
> > 26, Firefox 20, or Internet Explorer 10. Some recommended reading on
> > keyboard accessibility, ARIA, and focus path (because I suspect
> > that will
> > be the next hurdle for you):
> > -- Terrill Thompson's accessible audio player (just tested it again,
> > still working for me!): http://www.terrillthompson.com/music/aap/
> > -- ARIA best practices (and focus path management):
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
> >
> > - *Understandable:* The label for the text entry is missing a FOR
> > attribute that will tie it to the input field's ID attribute. These
> two
> > elements must be associated programmatically in order for all users
> to
> > understand their relationship. For example, instead
> > of <label>Caption:</label>, you should have <label
> > for="responsenew">Caption:</label> where "responsenew" is the ID
> > attribute
> > for the text input field.
> >
> > - *Robust:* I think it would be beneficial if you did consider
> offering
> > multiple ways that users could access the audio content. Your
> suggestion
> > about an MP3 may be the answer. Either way, please ensure that your
> > CAPTCHA
> > does not depend on a very specific combination of browsers,
> > technologies,
> > or assistive technology to support it.
> >
> >
> > Again, that wasn't a full review or anything, but I figured it would
> > help to provide you some initial technical feedback before you run
> > into any more problems.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> > Elle
> >
> > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
> > divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
> > vast and endless sea.
> > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Samir:
> > >
> > > I just wanted to tell you, as someone who has been a rather
> > > outspoken critic of CAPTCHAs, that I find your project idea really
> > > creative and inspiring. Once the technical pieces are worked out, I
> > > look forward to seeing how it will both benefit the groups of users
> > > that you mentioned
> > and
> > > hopefully increase the overall usability of CAPTCHA for everyone.
> > > In short, what a cool idea!
> > >
> > > I'll do a little testing and provide some feedback shortly.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Elle
> > >
> > > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather
> > > wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn
> > > for the
> > vast
> > > and endless sea.
> > > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello:
> > >> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the
> > >> page and edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button
> > >> and a give up button how do I play the audio Lucy
> > >>
> > >> Lucia Greco
> > >> Web Access Analyst
> > >> IST-Campus Technology Services
> > >> University of California, Berkeley
> > >> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > >> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > >> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir
> > >> menon
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
> > >> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired
> > >> And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
> > >>
> > >> Hi All,
> > >>
> > >> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google
> > Science
> > >> Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired.
> > >> As
> > you
> > >> may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long
> > >> time,
> > and
> > >> tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from
> > >> participating
> > in
> > >> online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an
> > >> easier audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out
> > >> the CAPTCHAs to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In
> > >> that way, my
> > project
> > >> helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired
> > >> and the hearing impaired.
> > >>
> > >> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take
> > >> the ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to
> > >> users as CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the
> > >> responses of others to verify they are human. You can read the full
> > >> explanation and help me
> > test
> > >> the system
> > >> here<
> > >> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can
> > >> _b
> > >> e_fixed.html<
> > http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> > _fixed.html
> > >
> > >> >
> > >> [1].
> > >>
> > >> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any
> > feedback
> > >> you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the
> > >> bottom of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
> > >>
> > >> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
> > >> appreciate any and all feedback!
> > >>
> > >> Thanks so much!
> > >> ~Samir Menon
> > >>
> > >> [1] -
> > >>
> > http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> > _fix
> > >> ed.html<
> > http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> > _fixed.html
> > >
> > >>
> > >> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
> > >> > > >> > > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> > > >> > > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >

From: Jacek Zadrożny
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 1:07AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

JZ: CAPTCHA is evil! Image CAPTCHAs are not accessible for visually
impaired. Audio CAPTCHAS are not accessible for deaf. Both are not
accessible for deafblind.
Audio CAPTCHA isn't solution, because it's made for english native
speakers. What could you do if somebody offer you audio CAPTCHA in
Polish or Chinese? Image CAPTCHA uses roman letters, but what about
people using another alphabets, for example CJK or arabian?
Accessible pages shouldn't use CAPTCHAs, because they're not compliant
with WCAG 2.0
Regards



--
Jacek Zadrożny
http://informaton.pl
All about web accessibility

From: Pratik Patel
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 3:04AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Samir,

I'll echo Elle's comments here and tell you that I'm quite excited to see
this project succeed. In addition to Lucie, I'll be happy to help with
screen reader and other assistive testing. I'm quite eager to see what comes
of this method of implementing CAPTCHA. I'm also wondering if we can help
you implement methods with which people who are deaf-blind can interact.

Regards,

Pratik

Pratik Patel
Founder and CEO, EZFire
T: 718-928-5529
M: 718-249-7019
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = (or = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
Follow me on Twitter: @ppatel
Follow me on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pratik-patel/9/985/882
Skype: Patel.pratik



-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Elle
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:41 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And
Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired

Samir:

I think it's great if you want to test your code with a screen reader.
There are free options available like VoiceOver that comes with every Mac
and NVDA <http://community.nvda-project.org/>; for Windows). However, I
would humbly suggest that testing with a screen reader as a developer is
really more for your own awareness. It will help you get familiar with how
screen readers interact with web pages. You actually have the best possible
scenario for getting screen reader testing results with Lucy's kind offer.
As a sighted user who works in the accessibility industry, I still would
never trust my own testing over someone who uses a screen reader for
everyday use. Because accessibility is part technical and part human
experience, I usually focus on the technical and try to learn from others'
interactions.

All the best, and congratulations again on your project idea! You've
restored my hope in a good reason to have CAPTCHA on a web site... maybe. :)


Cheers,
Elle

If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast
and endless sea.
- Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:06 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello:
> I was in a hurry earlier and forgot to say I really do want this to work
> and I will be your tester. Just send me anything you have and I can tell
> you how it works I will even screen cast to show you how it works this is
> a very important and ambitious project I really want it to work Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:42 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired
> And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
>
> Thanks so much for the feedback Elle!
> You're right in saying that there definitely a bunch of ways I can make
> the site more accesible. In some ways, it's a bit hypocritical of me to
> have a page with such poor accessibility when my project is, in itself,
> about making the web more accessible. I really like the accesible audio
> player example that you sent me, so I'll probably try to use that to
> ensure that everyone on every browser can hear the CAPTCHA.
>
> I'll work on those issues tonight and tomorrow evening, and in addition to
> what you mentioned, try actually using the page using a screenreader. I'll
> update everyone when I finish.
>
> Thanks,
> ~Samir
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:24 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Samir:
> >
> > I believe I understand why Lucy's experiencing some problems accessing
> > your audio content. There are some technical accessibility issues with
> > your page that need to be addressed first before you will get much out
> > of user testing. After just a few minutes, here are some starting
> > points to fix the page, things that I would consider must-have support
> features:
> >
> >
> > - *Perceivable:* I recommend some more browser testing if you want
> this
> > to be a popular alternative to CAPTCHA solutions in use today. Using
> > Windows, Firefox 20, the audio player does not visually display
> > (screenshot
> > of page:http://i.imgur.com/Qef7IVL.png).
> >
> > - *Operable:* The audio player is not keyboard accessible using
> Chrome
> > 26, Firefox 20, or Internet Explorer 10. Some recommended reading on
> > keyboard accessibility, ARIA, and focus path (because I suspect
> > that will
> > be the next hurdle for you):
> > -- Terrill Thompson's accessible audio player (just tested it again,
> > still working for me!): http://www.terrillthompson.com/music/aap/
> > -- ARIA best practices (and focus path management):
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
> >
> > - *Understandable:* The label for the text entry is missing a FOR
> > attribute that will tie it to the input field's ID attribute. These
> two
> > elements must be associated programmatically in order for all users
> to
> > understand their relationship. For example, instead
> > of <label>Caption:</label>, you should have <label
> > for="responsenew">Caption:</label> where "responsenew" is the ID
> > attribute
> > for the text input field.
> >
> > - *Robust:* I think it would be beneficial if you did consider
> offering
> > multiple ways that users could access the audio content. Your
> suggestion
> > about an MP3 may be the answer. Either way, please ensure that your
> > CAPTCHA
> > does not depend on a very specific combination of browsers,
> > technologies,
> > or assistive technology to support it.
> >
> >
> > Again, that wasn't a full review or anything, but I figured it would
> > help to provide you some initial technical feedback before you run
> > into any more problems.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> > Elle
> >
> > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather wood,
> > divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
> > vast and endless sea.
> > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Elle < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Samir:
> > >
> > > I just wanted to tell you, as someone who has been a rather
> > > outspoken critic of CAPTCHAs, that I find your project idea really
> > > creative and inspiring. Once the technical pieces are worked out, I
> > > look forward to seeing how it will both benefit the groups of users
> > > that you mentioned
> > and
> > > hopefully increase the overall usability of CAPTCHA for everyone.
> > > In short, what a cool idea!
> > >
> > > I'll do a little testing and provide some feedback shortly.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Elle
> > >
> > > If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the people to gather
> > > wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn
> > > for the
> > vast
> > > and endless sea.
> > > - Antoine De Saint-Exupéry, The Little Prince
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello:
> > >> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the
> > >> page and edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button
> > >> and a give up button how do I play the audio Lucy
> > >>
> > >> Lucia Greco
> > >> Web Access Analyst
> > >> IST-Campus Technology Services
> > >> University of California, Berkeley
> > >> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > >> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > >> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir
> > >> menon
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
> > >> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired
> > >> And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
> > >>
> > >> Hi All,
> > >>
> > >> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google
> > Science
> > >> Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired.
> > >> As
> > you
> > >> may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long
> > >> time,
> > and
> > >> tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from
> > >> participating
> > in
> > >> online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an
> > >> easier audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out
> > >> the CAPTCHAs to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In
> > >> that way, my
> > project
> > >> helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired
> > >> and the hearing impaired.
> > >>
> > >> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take
> > >> the ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to
> > >> users as CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the
> > >> responses of others to verify they are human. You can read the full
> > >> explanation and help me
> > test
> > >> the system
> > >> here<
> > >> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can
> > >> _b
> > >> e_fixed.html<
> > http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> > _fixed.html
> > >
> > >> >
> > >> [1].
> > >>
> > >> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any
> > feedback
> > >> you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the
> > >> bottom of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
> > >>
> > >> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
> > >> appreciate any and all feedback!
> > >>
> > >> Thanks so much!
> > >> ~Samir Menon
> > >>
> > >> [1] -
> > >>
> > http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> > _fix
> > >> ed.html<
> > http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> > _fixed.html
> > >
> > >>
> > >> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
> > >> > > >> > > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> > > >> > > >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >

From: samir menon
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 4:32AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Part of my project's flexibility is that it can be multilingual: we can
actually use the same project and method, and simply use video sources from
another language. We can then ask/detect an incoming user's language, and
present them with the correct CAPTCHA.

In terms of the deafblind, that poses another challenge, because our only
options for giving them an effective puzzle are by using either Braille or
more generally, text. In other words, we would have to design a challenge
that can be read and answered in plaintext, which is very challenging.
Computers can use all kinds of resources to deduce almost any plaintext
challenge.

For the deafblind, I have a couple of ideas:

1. Some kind of puzzle using the fact that they have a Braille display
2. A plaintext puzzle of some sort (word rearrangement, comprehension
test...etc.)
3. Some kind of external verification that they are deafblind

Any advice on the deafblind, how they interact with computers, or ideas for
a puzzle for them would be great.

I think the underlying issue is that CAPTCHAs, as much as they aren't
accesible and annoying, are here to stay on the web for some time, and if
we can make the current one that's on the web more accesible, we should.
Not only that, but we can take the work that people filling out this
CAPTCHA put in, and use it to caption more videos online for the deaf.

Also, I'd like to mention, my aim in this is to prove that this system
works, and get the attention of Luis von Ahn (creator of reCAPTCHA) and his
team. To prove it works, with the help of the visually impaired and blind,
we can show how that my system is a secure, easier, and more accessible
alternative to the current audio CAPTCHA.

Thanks,
~Samir

From: Elle
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 6:30AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Samir:

Regarding support for deaf-blind users, you may find help in using the CSS
media type <style type="text/css" *media*="braille, embossed">. I'm still
considering how it could be used effectively and still meet the goals for
security. Perhaps you could find a way to utilize the tactile nature of a
braille display, maybe that could be leveraged to send a haptic prompt that
only that form of assistive technology could comprehend - not sure, though.
It seems a bit convoluted. Comprehension tests are difficult and usually
inaccessible to some users with cognitive impairments, so I would caution
against that solution.

One of the overarching challenges that you will face, even after you solve
for every scenario, is one of time and discomfort. When you increase the
possible methods for solving the puzzle, you increase the time it takes to
solve the CAPTCHA. Users will likely abandon the experience before
completing the task. When you make it faster, it's probably going to leave
some user group locked out. Abandonment rate is already an issue with
CAPTCHA, and there's reasons why. CAPTCHA is hard for everyone, and CAPTCHA
really isn't fair to the user. A security check puts a technical problem
squarely onto the shoulders of the end-user to solve. As a user, I often
think, "Why is your security issue my problem now?" Generally speaking,
usability best practices would recommend that a web page is designed to
make an experience easier for a user, not harder. CAPTCHA tends to conflict
with this concept. When we encounter CAPTCHA on our clients' web pages, we
typically recommend a layered alternative solution that works better all
around: more secure and more accessible. I'm not saying you can't solve
this puzzle (irony!), but I do think there are quite a few challenges ahead
to get there.

All the best,
Elle

From: Patterson, David K (ITD)
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 6:39AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

And don't forget that many Apple devices don't support Flash at all.

David K. Patterson
Manager - Assistive Technology Laboratory
Information Technology Division
One Ashburton Place, Room 1601
Boston, MA 02108
Phone: 617-626-4650
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web: www.mass.gov/itd/

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:18 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired

I'm not sure why you're not able to play the audio, Lucy; Most browsers support mp3 playing. (IE 9+, Firefox 20+, Chrome, Safari)

Do you think I should add a download for the mp3 so that people can play it if they don't have a supported browser they can download it?

I could alternatively use a flash player to play the audio, but I had assumed that most people using screenreading technology don't have Flash enabled.


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello:
> I can't find a way to hear the audio I find a here link on the page
> and edit field to put the answer in and a check answer button and a
> give up button how do I play the audio Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 5:21 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired
> And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google
> Science Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually
> impaired. As you may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult,
> take a long time, and tend to discourage many visually impaired web
> users from participating in online discussion. Not only is the
> solution I have developed an easier audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the
> work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs to provide captions to videos
> online for the deaf. In that way, my project helps make the web more
> accesible for both the visually impaired and the hearing impaired.
>
> Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take
> the ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users
> as CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of
> others to verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and
> help me test the system
> here<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_c
> an_b
> e_fixed.html>
> [1].
>
> You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any
> feedback you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at
> the bottom of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].
>
> Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I
> appreciate any and all feedback!
>
> Thanks so much!
> ~Samir Menon
>
> [1] -
> http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be
> _fix
> ed.html
>
> [2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>

From: Don Mauck
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 8:39AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Personally if I could have the power to outlaw anything on the internet it would be captcha. I don't care what people think, using audio is ridiculous since most audio files are virtually impossible to understand even for those of us with the best of hearing. Making it in Braille assumes that most people can afford a Braille display of some kind and even for those who use a screen magnification program have a very difficult time of reading that elusive text. Sites that insist upon using Captcha are in my mind purposely excluding all kind of visual impaired people whether knowingly or unknowingly it does not matter. I submit that with all the coding, security and other tricks available to developers, find a better way or forget about me and probably many, many others of using and or endorsing your web site. This is my opinion and while others may dispute it, my opinion is not likely to change unless given substantial proof otherwise.

From: Jon Brundage
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 8:54AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

As a visual user with normal hearing I still have a great deal of trouble
with CAPTCHA- usually I need two or three tries! Either the characters
and/or the audio is too distorted to be "perceivable."

Jon

From: Poore-Pariseau, Cindy
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 8:56AM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired AndMaking Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Same here, Jon. Recently I came across a couple of sites that use simple addition:

For example: "if you are a human, tell me what 0 + 1 equals"


If we teach today as we taught yesterday, we rob our children of tomorrow" ~John Dewey
Cindy Poore-Pariseau, Ph. D.
Bristol Community College
Coordinator of Disability Services
Office of Disability Services, L115
Fall River, MA 02720
phone: 508-678-2811 ext. 2470
Fax: 508-730-3297
aim: poorepariseau

From: samir menon
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 3:11PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

I don't mean to be contrarian here, but there are number of problems with
the math problems and other 'simpler' CAPTCHAs.

Effectively, the "if you are a human, tell me what 0 + 1 equals" puzzle
provides absolutely no security against a computer attacker, because computers,
as we know, can do simple addition. Those computers could then spam to
create hundreds of thousands of accounts or comments, thus rendering the
system essentially useless for any human, disabled or otherwise.

I'd like to say that it's unlikely that tomorrow we will wake up and
CAPTCHAs will be gone. In fact, that would probably be a bad thing, because
computer automated spam machines could then essentially shut down large
parts of the internet (email, facebook, twitter, comment sections, forums
... etc).

I think the more realistic and feasible approach is to improve CAPTCHAs and
try to make them more accessible. Simply wishing they were gone won't help
make the internet more accessible.

Also, Jon, have you tried my alternative here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>;?
Do you think the audio is more understandable in this puzzle?

From: Elle
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 5:36PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Samir:

I agree that security can be weak with many CAPTCHA solutions. I'd even go
so far as to say that all CAPTCHAs fail in their overall objective. My
coworker and friend, Karl Groves, created a good list of resources about
all the ways you can break or hack CAPTCHA:
http://www.karlgroves.com/2013/02/09/list-of-resources-breaking-captcha/.
CAPTCHA is neither secure nor usable in most forms, and when it is secure,
it's completely unusable. When it's user-friendly, it's much less secure.
In short, there are better ways to protect your system.

Personally, I think the concept of CAPTCHA was designed with such limited
and reductive definitions of "human" and machine" that it won't hold up for
much longer. The rapidly approaching singularity and merger of what we will
soon define as "human" with adaptive, wearable, and assistive technology
really renders this distinction between human and machine kind of
meaningless at some point. It becomes more of a philosophical discussion
than a clear cut line to use as a gateway online to secure systems.

So, I don't really believe that you will solve all of the accessibility
issues inherent in a technology that is actually designed to confuse.
However, I love the creativity in your overall idea, and that's what I
wholeheartedly support and want to encourage most of all. I have a feeling
that your project work will inspire new ways to consider cross-disability
solutions that can help users.


All the best,
Elle

From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 7:42PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

I imagine I've posted this article to WebAIM in the past, since we've
talked about CAPTCHAs many times. But I'll take this opportunity to
repost it since it is the best summary of the history, issues, and
alternatives that I've found.

Hope it helps. The article is from Smashing Coding, and it's called:

In Search of the Perfect CAPTCHA:
http://coding.smashingmagazine.com/2011/03/04/in-search-of-the-perfect-captcha/

Jennifer

From: Dave Merrill
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 7:48PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Jumping in here, not as an accessibility expert (which I'm not), but as a
developer and participant in online conversations; forgive me if I'm being
naive...

The simple fact is that forums or blog comments that get overrun with spam
aren't places anyone wants to go, regardless of any disabilities they may
or may not have. Something needs to be done about that.

Far as I can see, the alternatives are:
- Making everyone create an account and log in, which nobody likes for
casual comments, and which carries its own privacy and personal security
risks
- Moderating every comment, impractical for high-volume or thinly staffed
sites
- Some way of anonymously "proving" you're not a spambot, i.e., CAPTCHAs,
which are imperfect in both accessibility and security, but people like
Samir are working to improve them

Distinguishing people from programs designed to imitate them is a hard
problem. Doing it a way that's natural in spite of possible impairment to
every sense, motor ability and cognitive function seems very very hard. The
only approach I can think of would be to offer multiple tests, and let you
choose based on what you're comfortable with. Multiple serious impairments
would be difficult to manage, as in other areas of life.

What other suggestions are being proposed? Not the deserted wasteland that
grows where spam isn't controlled at all, I hope.

Dave Merrill

From: Elle
Date: Thu, Apr 18 2013 8:25PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | Next message →

Dave:

Again, I'm going to refer to another of Karl's posts where he documents
viable alternative solutions:
http://www.karlgroves.com/2012/04/03/captcha-less-security/ I used to work
at a large healthcare company, and we got rid of CAPTCHA on our websites
for three reasons: layered alternatives provided even greater security than
CAPTCHA, alternative non-CAPTCHA solutions were more accessible, and
creating technical solutions to security issues reduced the user's burden
and our abandonment rates.

Hope that helps,
Elle

From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Tue, Apr 23 2013 2:59PM
Subject: Re: Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired
← Previous message | No next message

With JAWS 14 and IE9 I never hear any audio. I hit enter on play button and get the message waiting.

I do see edit field for entry of CAPTCHA.

Dave



-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of samir menon
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:21 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Making A Better CAPTCHA For the Visually Impaired And Making Captions More Available To The Hearing Impaired

Hi All,

I'm Samir, a 10th grade web developer and I am working on a Google Science Fair Project to create a better CAPTCHA for the visually impaired. As you may know, current audio CAPTCHAs are very difficult, take a long time, and tend to discourage many visually impaired web users from participating in online discussion. Not only is the solution I have developed an easier audio CAPTCHA, but also uses the work of those who fill out the CAPTCHAs to provide captions to videos online for the deaf. In that way, my project helps make the web more accesible for both the visually impaired and the hearing impaired.

Essentially, I take videos online, split them into chunks, and take the ones that the computer has trouble with and present them to users as CAPTCHA puzzles. I compare their responses to the responses of others to verify they are human. You can read the full explanation and help me test the system here<http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html>;
[1].

You can help me by testing the solution I have, and giving me any feedback you have. You can test the solution by clicking the button at the bottom of [1] or going here <http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php>; [2].

Also, if you have any feedback, don't hesitate at all to tell me: I appreciate any and all feedback!

Thanks so much!
~Samir Menon

[1] -
http://t-oss.com/why_the_audio_recaptcha_is_terrible_and_how_it_can_be_fixed.html

[2] - http://t-oss.com/puzzle.php