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Thread: Summary and datatables?

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Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 10:53AM
Subject: Summary and datatables?
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I am trying to validate a page with a dynamically built data table
and am using a Firefox addon which failed the data table because of
lack of a "summary". Checkpoint 1.3.1 Info and Relationships.

Question: I couldn't find much else about it, not even with the W3C.
Can you help me out? Is a requirement for success of data tables?

Thank you

Nancy Johnson

From: Karl Groves
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 11:10AM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
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I'd say that whatever tool you're using is a bit overly conservative in
this case.
A table summary is useful when the table is complex enough and the context
of use is such that an explanation of the table would be useful. The
summary attribute is only useful for users of screenreaders, which is
unfortunate. Some would argue that if a table is complex enough that it
requires explaining, then the contents of summary attribute should be
displayed visually for the benefit of all.

In any case, not using a summary is certainly not a failure of 1.3.1, IMO,
especially if it is either unwarranted or the table is summarized elsewhere.


On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> I am trying to validate a page with a dynamically built data table
> and am using a Firefox addon which failed the data table because of
> lack of a "summary". Checkpoint 1.3.1 Info and Relationships.
>
> Question: I couldn't find much else about it, not even with the W3C.
> Can you help me out? Is a requirement for success of data tables?
>
> Thank you
>
> Nancy Johnson
> > > >



--

Karl Groves
www.karlgroves.com
@karlgroves
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karlgroves
Phone: +1 410.541.6829

From: Holli Smith
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 11:18AM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
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If you want to meet the requirement without necessarily having the summary
on the page you can use caption tags to caption the tables and that will
meet the requirement.
http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_caption.asp

Thanks,
Holli Elizabeth Smith
678.793.6162
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.hollielizabeth.com



On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 1:10 PM, Karl Groves < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I'd say that whatever tool you're using is a bit overly conservative in
> this case.
> A table summary is useful when the table is complex enough and the context
> of use is such that an explanation of the table would be useful. The
> summary attribute is only useful for users of screenreaders, which is
> unfortunate. Some would argue that if a table is complex enough that it
> requires explaining, then the contents of summary attribute should be
> displayed visually for the benefit of all.
>
> In any case, not using a summary is certainly not a failure of 1.3.1, IMO,
> especially if it is either unwarranted or the table is summarized
> elsewhere.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >wrote:
>
> > I am trying to validate a page with a dynamically built data table
> > and am using a Firefox addon which failed the data table because of
> > lack of a "summary". Checkpoint 1.3.1 Info and Relationships.
> >
> > Question: I couldn't find much else about it, not even with the W3C.
> > Can you help me out? Is a requirement for success of data tables?
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Nancy Johnson
> > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> --
>
> Karl Groves
> www.karlgroves.com
> @karlgroves
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/karlgroves
> Phone: +1 410.541.6829
> > > >

From: Rabab Gomaa
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 11:20AM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
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Hi Nancy,=20
=20
Data tables require either summary or caption.=20
- If your page is an X-HTML, you can have <summary> or <caption> to pass =
WCAG 2.0 1.3.1 and 4.1.1
- If your page is HTML5, then you can have only <caption> because =
<summary> is an obsolete element in HTML 5. Using summary in HTML5 will =
cause failure of 4.1.1.
=20
Ref. list of obsolete elements in HTML5
http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete
=20
Rabab

>>> Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 2013-09-16 12:53 PM >>>
I am trying to validate a page with a dynamically built data table
and am using a Firefox addon which failed the data table because of
lack of a "summary". Checkpoint 1.3.1 Info and Relationships.

Question: I couldn't find much else about it, not even with the W3C.
Can you help me out? Is a requirement for success of data tables?

Thank you

Nancy Johnson

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 11:24AM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
← Previous message | Next message →

2013-09-16 20:10, Karl Groves wrote:

> I'd say that whatever tool you're using is a bit overly conservative in
> this case.

Or maybe just pointless? The summary attribute never had much support,
it was a wrong idea from the beginning, and it is being phased out as
obsolete in HTML5.

> A table summary is useful when the table is complex enough and the context
> of use is such that an explanation of the table would be useful.

In such cases, the odds are that an explanation would also be needed by
the 99.9% of users who never see the summary attribute value.

> The summary attribute is only useful for users of screenreaders, which is
> unfortunate.

Make that "only useful for users of some screen readers, which is what
was to be expected".

> Some would argue that if a table is complex enough that it
> requires explaining, then the contents of summary attribute should be
> displayed visually for the benefit of all.

Make that "It is evident that if the table is complex enough to require
explaining, then the explanation should simply be given in the page
content that is accessible to all (or the table should be restructured)".

> In any case, not using a summary is certainly not a failure of 1.3.1, IMO,
> especially if it is either unwarranted or the table is summarized elsewhere.

Well, right, except that the summary attribute was not really supposed
to contain a summary, contrary to the name. Rather, some explanations
about purpose, structure, etc. (i.e., a legend, more or less). The
obscurity started with the name of the attribute.

Yucca

From: Karl Groves
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 11:29AM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
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Hi, Rebab. Can you elaborate on this statement a bit? "Data tables require
either summary or caption."
Would you say that *all* tables require one or the other? Why not both?
Under what circumstances could they be eliminated? "Require" is quite the
absolute statement.


On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Rabab Gomaa
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi Nancy,
>
> Data tables require either summary or caption.
> - If your page is an X-HTML, you can have <summary> or <caption> to pass
> WCAG 2.0 1.3.1 and 4.1.1
> - If your page is HTML5, then you can have only <caption> because
> <summary> is an obsolete element in HTML 5. Using summary in HTML5 will
> cause failure of 4.1.1.
>
> Ref. list of obsolete elements in HTML5
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete
>
> Rabab
>
> >>> Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 2013-09-16 12:53 PM >>>
> I am trying to validate a page with a dynamically built data table
> and am using a Firefox addon which failed the data table because of
> lack of a "summary". Checkpoint 1.3.1 Info and Relationships.
>
> Question: I couldn't find much else about it, not even with the W3C.
> Can you help me out? Is a requirement for success of data tables?
>
> Thank you
>
> Nancy Johnson
> > > >
> > > >
>


--

Karl Groves
www.karlgroves.com
@karlgroves
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karlgroves
Phone: +1 410.541.6829

From: Rabab Gomaa
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 1:28PM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Karl,=20
Re: Would you say that *all* tables require one or the other? Why not =
both?
- Only data tables. Layout tables should not use caption or summary=20
ref. http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/F46
=20
- Both Summary and caption can be used for (except for HTML 5 as summary =
is obsolete).=20
However, if both are used, the caption should not duplicate information in =
the summary.
ref. http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/H39
=20
Rabab
>>> Karl Groves < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 2013-09-16 1:29 PM >>>
Hi, Rebab. Can you elaborate on this statement a bit? "Data tables =
require
either summary or caption."
Would you say that *all* tables require one or the other? Why not both?
Under what circumstances could they be eliminated? "Require" is quite =
the
absolute statement.


On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Rabab Gomaa
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi Nancy,
>
> Data tables require either summary or caption.
> - If your page is an X-HTML, you can have <summary> or <caption> to pass
> WCAG 2.0 1.3.1 and 4.1.1
> - If your page is HTML5, then you can have only <caption> because
> <summary> is an obsolete element in HTML 5. Using summary in HTML5 will
> cause failure of 4.1.1.
>
> Ref. list of obsolete elements in HTML5
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete
>
> Rabab
>
> >>> Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 2013-09-16 12:53 PM >>>
> I am trying to validate a page with a dynamically built data table
> and am using a Firefox addon which failed the data table because of
> lack of a "summary". Checkpoint 1.3.1 Info and Relationships.
>
> Question: I couldn't find much else about it, not even with the W3C.
> Can you help me out? Is a requirement for success of data tables?
>
> Thank you
>
> Nancy Johnson
> > > >
> > > >
>


--=20

Karl Groves
www.karlgroves.com
@karlgroves
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karlgroves
Phone: +1 410.541.6829

From: Jared Smith
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 1:52PM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
← Previous message | Next message →

Any tool that flags a failure for a table that is missing a summary is
using some creative interpretation of accessibility guidelines and
best practices.

Data tables do *not* require caption and/or summary. There is no
requirement in guidelines for such things. Now many data tables have
or could use a descriptive caption to make them more usable, but
there's no requirement that one be there, especially if the table
already makes sense in context or by the content of the table itself.

Many people (and presumably Rabab) misinterpret H39
(http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/H39) to suggest
that captions are required, when in fact, it simply requires that if a
text caption is present that it be associated to the table with the
<caption> element.

Summary is dead. If you want to use it for a description of the table
layout (NOT the table content), go for it, but know that few will
see/read it. If a table needs a summary of its structure in order to
be accessible, it's probably not accessible.

Jared

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 1:53PM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
← Previous message | Next message →

I would say (and I'm speaking for myself rather than the working group) that there is no requirement to provide a caption for a table, only that text that is intended to serve as a caption for a table would need to be marked up as a <caption>.

If the table doesn't have a caption it may mean that the table is less understandable than the same table with a caption (or it may not), but this doesn't fall under WCAG. WCAG 1.3.1 requires that "Information, structure, and relationships conveyed through presentation can be programmatically determined or are available in text." If the caption isn't in the presentation you don't need to mark it up as such.

Still, a caption is often a good idea for help make tables more clear, and in those cases you should use one and mark it up as a <caption>.

Thanks,
AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Group Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://twitter.com/awkawk
http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Rabab Gomaa
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:29 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Summary and datatables?

Hi Karl,
Re: Would you say that *all* tables require one or the other? Why not both?
- Only data tables. Layout tables should not use caption or summary ref. http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/F46

- Both Summary and caption can be used for (except for HTML 5 as summary is obsolete).
However, if both are used, the caption should not duplicate information in the summary.
ref. http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/H39

Rabab
>>> Karl Groves < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 2013-09-16 1:29 PM >>>
Hi, Rebab. Can you elaborate on this statement a bit? "Data tables require either summary or caption."
Would you say that *all* tables require one or the other? Why not both?
Under what circumstances could they be eliminated? "Require" is quite the
absolute statement.


On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Rabab Gomaa
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi Nancy,
>
> Data tables require either summary or caption.
> - If your page is an X-HTML, you can have <summary> or <caption> to
> pass WCAG 2.0 1.3.1 and 4.1.1
> - If your page is HTML5, then you can have only <caption> because
> <summary> is an obsolete element in HTML 5. Using summary in HTML5
> will cause failure of 4.1.1.
>
> Ref. list of obsolete elements in HTML5
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete
>
> Rabab
>
> >>> Nancy Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 2013-09-16 12:53 PM >>>
> I am trying to validate a page with a dynamically built data table and
> am using a Firefox addon which failed the data table because of
> lack of a "summary". Checkpoint 1.3.1 Info and Relationships.
>
> Question: I couldn't find much else about it, not even with the W3C.
> Can you help me out? Is a requirement for success of data tables?
>
> Thank you
>
> Nancy Johnson
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>


--

Karl Groves
www.karlgroves.com
@karlgroves
http://www.linkedin.com/in/karlgroves
Phone: +1 410.541.6829

From: Rabab Gomaa
Date: Mon, Sep 16 2013 2:41PM
Subject: Re: Summary and datatables?
← Previous message | No next message

Thanks Jard for the clarification!
We decided to not add any captions in those cases when table comes after =
a heading to avoid repetition but I thought that those would make =
accessibility failures.. It is good to know that these tables pass WCAG.
=20
>>> Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 2013-09-16 3:52 PM >>>
Any tool that flags a failure for a table that is missing a summary is
using some creative interpretation of accessibility guidelines and
best practices.

Data tables do *not* require caption and/or summary. There is no
requirement in guidelines for such things. Now many data tables have
or could use a descriptive caption to make them more usable, but
there's no requirement that one be there, especially if the table
already makes sense in context or by the content of the table itself.

Many people (and presumably Rabab) misinterpret H39
(http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20130905/H39) to suggest
that captions are required, when in fact, it simply requires that if a
text caption is present that it be associated to the table with the
<caption> element.

Summary is dead. If you want to use it for a description of the table
layout (NOT the table content), go for it, but know that few will
see/read it. If a table needs a summary of its structure in order to
be accessible, it's probably not accessible.

Jared