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Thread: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

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From: Lisa Snider
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 11:56AM
Subject: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
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Hi Everyone,

I was making a PowerPoint presentation accessible, and had an image
question. In all slides, I use a background image. It isn't important at
all.

In some slides I use images, which are important. I alted those images, but
then I didn't want to alt the background image. I did this because when I
made the presentation into a PDF, the background alt showed and not the
image alts (when I mouse over).

If this were a website, I would just do the null "", but how can I achieve
this in a PowerPoint? Is there a way to use the null here?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Lisa



--
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Sat, Apr 19 2014 11:47AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

To the best of my knowledge, no MS Office program gives us the option of
setting a graphic (or other image item) as an artifact. And the HTML null
tag "" (double quotes) is not available in any office, graphics or desktop
publishing program. It's strictly an HTML tag at this time. Instead of
null, some programs allow us to apply an "artifact" tag (sometimes called
"background" or "decorative"), but MS Office programs do not.
I think this is a major shortcoming in MS Office programs.
Instead, they automatically artifact anything on a PowerPoint master slide
(what other programs call the "Master Page") and in Headers/Footers.

So, in your example Lisa, as long as the background image is correctly
placed on the master slide design, rather than directly on each individual
slide (or page), it should automatically be artifacted and left out of the
PDF's tag tree and Reading Order, and therefore ignored by screen readers. I
think that's the end result your trying get, correct?

To control your master pages for the PowerPoint slides:
1. Select Slide Master from the View ribbon tab.
2. Select the Master Title Slide, the larger one at the top of the list
which controls the appearance of all other slide masters. Right-click on the
photo to send it to the back, or behind all of the text on the master.

If you want this background image to be on only certain types of pages in
the slideshow rather than all of them, then instead of putting it on the
Master Title slide master, place it on the master for that particular slide
design. Select the particular slide master from the list on the left.

I know, the word "master" means many things in the above directions, but
that's Microsoft's choice, not mine. There's the master master, and then
lesser masters. Sigh. Try teaching this for a living!

Only placeholders on the masters can have Alt-text (placeholders are
inserted on the slide master by choosing Insert Placeholder from the Slide
Master ribbon tab). All other images that are not placeholders will be
automatically artifacted.

If you need to brush up on PowerPoint's slide layouts, check
www.microsoft.com for free tutorials.
For Mac Powerpoint, see
http://www.microsoft.com/mac/how-to/training/powerpoint
For Windows 2013 PowerPoint, see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint-help/training-courses-for-power
point-2013-HA104015465.aspx
For Windows 2020 PowerPoint, see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint-help/training-courses-for-power
point-2010-HA104039040.aspx

For other MS Office programs, see
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/support/training-FX101782702.aspx

- Bevi Chagnon
- PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, and Developers.
- Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
- 508 Workshop: www.workshop.pubcom.com
- US Federal Training: www.gpo.gov/customers/theinstitute.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lisa Snider

If this were a website, I would just do the null "", but how can I achieve
this in a PowerPoint? Is there a way to use the null here?

From: Lisa Snider
Date: Mon, Apr 21 2014 8:11AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bevi,

Thanks. I use templates most of the time, but I had never had this issue
come up...So thanks for sharing that information with me, I appreciate it.

Cheers

Lisa


On Sat, Apr 19, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> To the best of my knowledge, no MS Office program gives us the option of
> setting a graphic (or other image item) as an artifact. And the HTML null
> tag "" (double quotes) is not available in any office, graphics or desktop
> publishing program. It's strictly an HTML tag at this time. Instead of
> null, some programs allow us to apply an "artifact" tag (sometimes called
> "background" or "decorative"), but MS Office programs do not.
> I think this is a major shortcoming in MS Office programs.
> Instead, they automatically artifact anything on a PowerPoint master slide
> (what other programs call the "Master Page") and in Headers/Footers.
>
> So, in your example Lisa, as long as the background image is correctly
> placed on the master slide design, rather than directly on each individual
> slide (or page), it should automatically be artifacted and left out of the
> PDF's tag tree and Reading Order, and therefore ignored by screen readers.
> I
> think that's the end result your trying get, correct?
>
> To control your master pages for the PowerPoint slides:
> 1. Select Slide Master from the View ribbon tab.
> 2. Select the Master Title Slide, the larger one at the top of the list
> which controls the appearance of all other slide masters. Right-click on
> the
> photo to send it to the back, or behind all of the text on the master.
>
> If you want this background image to be on only certain types of pages in
> the slideshow rather than all of them, then instead of putting it on the
> Master Title slide master, place it on the master for that particular slide
> design. Select the particular slide master from the list on the left.
>
> I know, the word "master" means many things in the above directions, but
> that's Microsoft's choice, not mine. There's the master master, and then
> lesser masters. Sigh. Try teaching this for a living!
>
> Only placeholders on the masters can have Alt-text (placeholders are
> inserted on the slide master by choosing Insert Placeholder from the Slide
> Master ribbon tab). All other images that are not placeholders will be
> automatically artifacted.
>
> If you need to brush up on PowerPoint's slide layouts, check
> www.microsoft.com for free tutorials.
> For Mac Powerpoint, see
> http://www.microsoft.com/mac/how-to/training/powerpoint
> For Windows 2013 PowerPoint, see
>
> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint-help/training-courses-for-power
> point-2013-HA104015465.aspx
> For Windows 2020 PowerPoint, see
>
> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/powerpoint-help/training-courses-for-power
> point-2010-HA104039040.aspx
>
> For other MS Office programs, see
> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/support/training-FX101782702.aspx
>
> - Bevi Chagnon
> - PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, and Developers.
> - Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> - 508 Workshop: www.workshop.pubcom.com
> - US Federal Training: www.gpo.gov/customers/theinstitute.htm
>
> --
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Apr 21 2014 8:14AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

You're welcome, Lisa.
Always glad to help.
-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New Sec. 508 Workshop & EPUBs Tour in 2014 - www.Workshop.Pubcom.com

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lisa Snider

Hi Bevi,

Thanks. I use templates most of the time, but I had never had this issue
come up...So thanks for sharing that information with me, I appreciate it.

Cheers

Lisa

From: Iaffaldano, Michelangelo
Date: Mon, Apr 21 2014 12:37PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Bevi, earlier in the thread you wrote that "no MS Office program gives us the option of setting a graphic (or other image item) as an artifact. And the HTML null tag "" (double quotes) is not available in any office, graphics or desktop publishing program. It's strictly an HTML tag at this time. ".

However a contact at SSB Bart Group emailed me the following: "The equivalent of alt="" in Office (specifically Word), is attained by creating null alternative text. To do this, open the Image properties, and for the alternative text, enter a Space followed by a Return. This creates a blank space and renders the image's alternative text as null (or alt="")".

Is this advice incorrect?

Michelangelo

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Apr 21 2014 12:47PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Adding space in the alt text description will unfortunately not generate a null alt attribute or artifact. Adobe InDesign does have an artifact tag option that can be used to generate artifacts in PDF output.

Jonathan (SSB BART Group)

> On Apr 21, 2014, at 2:37 PM, "Iaffaldano, Michelangelo" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Bevi, earlier in the thread you wrote that "no if act. MS Office program gives us the option of setting a graphic (or other image item) as an artifact. And the HTML null tag "" (double quotes) is not available in any office, graphics or desktop publishing program. It's strictly an HTML tag at this time. ".
>
> However a contact at SSB Bart Group emailed me the following: "The equivalent of alt="" in Office (specifically Word), is attained by creating null alternative text. To do this, open the Image properties, and for the alternative text, enter a Space followed by a Return. This creates a blank space and renders the image's alternative text as null (or alt="")".
>
> Is this advice incorrect?
>
> Michelangelo
>
> > >

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Mon, Apr 21 2014 12:49PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

> Bevi, earlier in the thread you wrote that "no MS Office program gives us the option of setting a graphic (or other image item) as an artifact. And the HTML null tag "" (double quotes) is not available in any office, graphics or desktop publishing program. It's strictly an HTML tag at this time. “.

The concept exists in PDF as “Artifact”.

> However a contact at SSB Bart Group emailed me the following: "The equivalent of alt="" in Office (specifically Word), is attained by creating null alternative text. To do this, open the Image properties, and for the alternative text, enter a Space followed by a Return. This creates a blank space and renders the image's alternative text as null (or alt="")".
>
> Is this advice incorrect?

It’s a hack. Some assistive technology may recognize such and ignore the image. Others may do the “wrong” thing - announce an image with no alternative text.

Duff.

From: Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC
Date: Mon, Apr 21 2014 1:47PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Duff,

I agree. I was thinking that was the solution but was not sure and had to find some notes. I took Document Remediation Training in late Jan from SSB Bart in a collaboration with Columbia Lighthouse. At least I can say there is something I remembered correctly.

Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:50 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

> Bevi, earlier in the thread you wrote that "no MS Office program gives us the option of setting a graphic (or other image item) as an artifact. And the HTML null tag "" (double quotes) is not available in any office, graphics or desktop publishing program. It's strictly an HTML tag at this time. ".

The concept exists in PDF as "Artifact".

> However a contact at SSB Bart Group emailed me the following: "The equivalent of alt="" in Office (specifically Word), is attained by creating null alternative text. To do this, open the Image properties, and for the alternative text, enter a Space followed by a Return. This creates a blank space and renders the image's alternative text as null (or alt="")".
>
> Is this advice incorrect?

It's a hack. Some assistive technology may recognize such and ignore the image. Others may do the "wrong" thing - announce an image with no alternative text.

Duff.
This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.

From: Jeff Howcroft
Date: Tue, Apr 22 2014 11:51AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

There are always going to issues with making office documents totally
accessible.

Why not convert the Power Point to PDF.



Jeff Howcroft
202 661 2180

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Avila [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 2:47 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Adding space in the alt text description will unfortunately not generate a
null alt attribute or artifact. Adobe InDesign does have an artifact tag
option that can be used to generate artifacts in PDF output.

Jonathan (SSB BART Group)

> On Apr 21, 2014, at 2:37 PM, "Iaffaldano, Michelangelo"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Bevi, earlier in the thread you wrote that "no if act. MS Office program
gives us the option of setting a graphic (or other image item) as an
artifact. And the HTML null tag "" (double quotes) is not available in any
office, graphics or desktop publishing program. It's strictly an HTML tag at
this time. ".
>
> However a contact at SSB Bart Group emailed me the following: "The
equivalent of alt="" in Office (specifically Word), is attained by creating
null alternative text. To do this, open the Image properties, and for the
alternative text, enter a Space followed by a Return. This creates a blank
space and renders the image's alternative text as null (or alt="")".
>
> Is this advice incorrect?
>
> Michelangelo
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Lisa Snider
Date: Tue, Apr 22 2014 11:55AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jeff,

In this case I wanted to keep the presentation in PowerPoint. I will later
make the PP into a PDF-but at least this way I know it will be accessible
to start with (or as accessible as possible).

Cheers

Lisa


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Jeff Howcroft < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> There are always going to issues with making office documents totally
> accessible.
>
> Why not convert the Power Point to PDF.
>
>
>


--
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu

From: Don Mauck
Date: Tue, Apr 22 2014 12:20PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Unless you are really sure of your markup, I would be careful about converting the PowerPoint to PDF.
-----Original Message-----
From: Haritos-Shea, Katie [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 12:07 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF is accessible to AT users on Macs and IOS?

* katie *
 
Katie Haritos-Shea
Senior Accessibility SME (WCAG/Section 508/ADA), Standards QA Architect JPMC dCE eCAT
 
JPMC Digital | Wilmington, DE | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | Office: 302-282-1439 | Ext: 21439 | Cell: 703-371-5545 | LinkedIn Profile


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lisa Snider
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:55 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Hi Jeff,

In this case I wanted to keep the presentation in PowerPoint. I will later make the PP into a PDF-but at least this way I know it will be accessible to start with (or as accessible as possible).

Cheers

Lisa


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Jeff Howcroft < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> There are always going to issues with making office documents totally
> accessible.
>
> Why not convert the Power Point to PDF.
>
>
>


--
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu
This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential, legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Although this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Tue, Apr 22 2014 12:43PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

[Katie wrote] Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF
is accessible to AT users on Macs and IOS?

About the same level of access of PowerPoint on iOS and about the same as
PowerPoint on the Mac unless you purchase Keynote.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Haritos-Shea,
Katie
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 2:07 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF is accessible
to AT users on Macs and IOS?

* katie *

Katie Haritos-Shea
Senior Accessibility SME (WCAG/Section 508/ADA), Standards QA Architect
JPMC dCE eCAT

JPMC Digital | Wilmington, DE | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | Office:
302-282-1439 | Ext: 21439 | Cell: 703-371-5545 | LinkedIn Profile


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lisa Snider
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:55 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Hi Jeff,

In this case I wanted to keep the presentation in PowerPoint. I will later
make the PP into a PDF-but at least this way I know it will be accessible
to start with (or as accessible as possible).

Cheers

Lisa


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Jeff Howcroft
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> There are always going to issues with making office documents totally
> accessible.
>
> Why not convert the Power Point to PDF.
>
>
>


--
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

This transmission may contain information that is privileged,
confidential, legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under
applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the
information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY
PROHIBITED. Although this transmission and any attachments are believed
to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer
system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of
the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is
accepted by JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as
applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. If
you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the
sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or
hard copy format. Thank you.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Tue, Apr 22 2014 2:36PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

> Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF is accessible to AT users on Macs and IOS?

The correct description of the problem is:

“No vendor, Apple included, yet supports accessible PDF on Mac OS or iOS.”

:-(

Duff.

From: Karen Sorensen
Date: Wed, Apr 23 2014 1:46PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility -alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Duff and Katie,
Clarification please.
I know that Microsoft Office for the Mac can't convert to an accessible
PDF, but can't VoiceOver read an accessible PDF?
A blind student told me that composing on Microsoft Office for the Mac is
inaccessible. I didn't realize that. Is that true? What is an accessible
office suite for composing on the Mac?

Thanks,
Karen
Karen M. Sorensen
Accessibility Advocate for Online Courses
www.pcc.edu/access
Portland Community College
971-722-4720
*"The power of the Web is in its universality. Access by everyone
regardless of disability is an essential aspect."* Tim Berners-Lee


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Haritos-Shea, Katie" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc:
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:40:29 +0000
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
Thanks Duff, that is a better statement!

* katie *

Katie Haritos-Shea
Senior Accessibility SME (WCAG/Section 508/ADA), Standards QA Architect
JPMC dCE eCAT

JPMC Digital | Wilmington, DE | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | Office:
302-282-1439 | Ext: 21439 | Cell: 703-371-5545 | LinkedIn Profile


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 4:36 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

> Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF is accessible
to AT users on Macs and IOS?

The correct description of the problem is:

"No vendor, Apple included, yet supports accessible PDF on Mac OS or iOS."

:-(

Duff.

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Apr 23 2014 2:01PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility -alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

> I know that Microsoft Office for the Mac can't convert to an accessible
> PDF, but can't VoiceOver read an accessible PDF?

No, VoiceOver cannot read an accessible PDF. Not as of Mac OS 10.9.2 or iOS 7.1.

Apple has not yet chosen to support this functionality. I guess they need to hear that people want it.

> A blind student told me that composing on Microsoft Office for the Mac is
> inaccessible. I didn't realize that. Is that true? What is an accessible
> office suite for composing on the Mac?

I’ve never tried it, but I would have thought (hoped?) that VoiceOver could handle navigation and use of such applications. Or is it really just for surfing HTML pages?

Duff.

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Wed, Apr 23 2014 2:16PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility -alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Apologies for being anal but…:

On 23 Apr 2014, at 22:01, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>> I know that Microsoft Office for the Mac can't convert to an accessible
>> PDF, but can't VoiceOver read an accessible PDF?
>
> No, VoiceOver cannot read an accessible PDF. Not as of Mac OS 10.9.2 or iOS 7.1.

this should rather say: VoiceOver cannot take advantage of semantic and structural information in a tagged PDF. Not as of Mac OS 10.9.2 or iOS 7.1. It only presents the text content sequentially (in the order it happens to be encoded in the PDF) in the language that happens to be the default language of the operating system. No heading navigation, no table handling, no alternate text for images etc. A shame given that PDF is at the core of presenting content on Mac OS X and iOS.

Olaf

From: Lisa Snider
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 6:45AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks everyone. I have worked with PCs mainly for the last 14 years. I am
now using a Mac for my main computer and thought we were further ahead.

Is it just me or is this inexcusable for 2014?

Cheers

Lisa


On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> > Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF is accessible
> to AT users on Macs and IOS?
>
> The correct description of the problem is:
>
> "No vendor, Apple included, yet supports accessible PDF on Mac OS or iOS."
>
> :-(
>
> Duff.



--
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu

From: Kroon, Kurtis@FTB
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 12:41PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility -alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

-----Original Message-----
From: Olaf Drümmer [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 13:17
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility -alt question

> ... A shame given that PDF is at the core of presenting content on
> Mac OS X and iOS.

The last time I experimented with this (and reported my results to the
List[1]), I discovered that the PDFs I made with "Save as PDF" on my Mac
conform to PDF version 1.2, which is compatible with Acrobat *3*.

So ... the Mac's (and iOS's) core presentation layer uses a version of
the spec that doesn't support tagging. That might explain why it is so
difficult to find a solution that "just works" on the Mac.

Thanks!

Kurt
WebBiz | FTB
916-845-5603


References
[1]: http://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread=4511
(scroll down most of the way to the bottom)

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From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 1:11PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility -alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

> The last time I experimented with this (and reported my results to the
> List[1]), I discovered that the PDFs I made with "Save as PDF" on my Mac
> conform to PDF version 1.2, which is compatible with Acrobat *3*.

As of 10.9.2 Mac OS claims to create files at PDF specification 1.4, published in 2001.

PDF 1.4 includes tagged (and thus accessible) PDF as one of many improvements over PDF 1.3, but Apple isn’t yet supporting this feature when creating PDF files.

> That might explain why it is so
> difficult to find a solution that "just works" on the Mac.

There are two issues: creation and consumption. They are quite distinct.

Regardless of the files Apple’s software creates they could still choose to support accessibility when encountering Tagged PDF files.

At this time, however, Apple has chosen not to support accessibility features in PDF for either authors or readers. :(

Duff.

From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 3:18PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

My vote is for inexcusable, especially as the difference is really how the
PDF files are handled under the covers. You'd still make the PDF file the
same way - but it would be a better, smarter file. Of course the results
are a profound difference to users.


On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Lisa Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks everyone. I have worked with PCs mainly for the last 14 years. I am
> now using a Mac for my main computer and thought we were further ahead.
>
> Is it just me or is this inexcusable for 2014?
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > > Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF is
> accessible
> > to AT users on Macs and IOS?
> >
> > The correct description of the problem is:
> >
> > "No vendor, Apple included, yet supports accessible PDF on Mac OS or
> iOS."
> >
> > :-(
> >
> > Duff.
>
>
>
> --
> Lisa Snider
> Electronic Records Archivist
> Harry Ransom Center
> The University of Texas at Austin
> P.O. Box 7219
> Austin, Texas 78713-7219
> P: 512-232-4616
> www.hrc.utexas.edu
> > > >

From: John E Brandt
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 4:02PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

I will not defend Apple on this one, but the issue regarding the
inaccessibility of PDF in the Mac OS is with Adobe. The Adobe Acrobat Reader
simply does not work with VoiceOver on the Mac OS. Like many legacy third
party applications for the Mac OS, including Microsoft Office for the Mac,
Adobe has not been willing to spend the money to rewrite the application to
work with VoiceOver. In fairness, it would be an expensive process,
particularly for a piece of software that is given away for free.

Currently, as others have mentioned, you can view/read PDF files using the
free Preview application built into Mac OSX. But this will only read the
text and you will lose all of the tagging including headings and layout
features.

As for making accessible PDF documents with the Mac OSX, the last time I
checked, the only way was with LibreOffice (and perhaps OpenOffice). You can
make an accessible word publisher document and save it as a PDF and it would
retain the proper tagging. Honestly, I haven't checked that for several
years, but I would assume it still works.

~j

John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design,
development and consultation
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

@jebswebs

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney
Quesenbery
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 5:18 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

My vote is for inexcusable, especially as the difference is really how the
PDF files are handled under the covers. You'd still make the PDF file the
same way - but it would be a better, smarter file. Of course the results are
a profound difference to users.


On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 8:45 AM, Lisa Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks everyone. I have worked with PCs mainly for the last 14 years.
> I am now using a Mac for my main computer and thought we were further
ahead.
>
> Is it just me or is this inexcusable for 2014?
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 22, 2014 at 3:36 PM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > > Just wondering....so you have evidence to support that PDF is
> accessible
> > to AT users on Macs and IOS?
> >
> > The correct description of the problem is:
> >
> > "No vendor, Apple included, yet supports accessible PDF on Mac OS or
> iOS."
> >
> > :-(
> >
> > Duff.
>
>
>
> --
> Lisa Snider
> Electronic Records Archivist
> Harry Ransom Center
> The University of Texas at Austin
> P.O. Box 7219
> Austin, Texas 78713-7219
> P: 512-232-4616
> www.hrc.utexas.edu
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 4:42PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

John,

> I will not defend Apple on this one, but the issue regarding the
> inaccessibility of PDF in the Mac OS is with Adobe.

Let’s be clear.

The issue of Adobe’s support for Tagged PDF on the Mac is Adobe’s problem.

The issue of Apple’s support for Tagged PDF is Apple’s problem.

PDF is just PDF. There’s nothing Adobe-specific about accessible PDF.

> The Adobe Acrobat Reader
> simply does not work with VoiceOver on the Mac OS.
> Like many legacy third
> party applications for the Mac OS, including Microsoft Office for the Mac,
> Adobe has not been willing to spend the money to rewrite the application to
> work with VoiceOver.
> In fairness, it would be an expensive process,
> particularly for a piece of software that is given away for free.

That’s fair - but most Mac users use Preview to read PDF files.

The other way to look at it is this:

Apple - the richest software company on the planet - is unwilling (so far) to make Preview, their PDF viewer, work with accessible PDF.

I contrasted Apple and NVDA in this regard in a blog-post earlier this year:

http://duff-johnson.com/2013/03/01/inaccessible-by-choice-pdf-on-macos/

> Currently, as others have mentioned, you can view/read PDF files using the
> free Preview application built into Mac OSX. But this will only read the
> text and you will lose all of the tagging including headings and layout
> features.

This is 100% Apple’s choice - it has nothing to do with Adobe. No-one forced Apple to support PDF in Preview!

> As for making accessible PDF documents with the Mac OSX, the last time I
> checked, the only way was with LibreOffice (and perhaps OpenOffice). You can
> make an accessible word publisher document and save it as a PDF and it would
> retain the proper tagging. Honestly, I haven't checked that for several
> years, but I would assume it still works.

It does. OpenOffice will create a tagged PDF on the Mac. I just checked / confirmed.

Thank you for the reminder / correction.

Duff.

From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 5:19PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Does Windows include a Microsoft PDF viewer app by default that reads tagged, accessible PDFs? I thought Adobe Reader/Acrobat was the only way to view tagged PDFs with a screen reader on Windows?

Apple should totally make PDF's accessible directly in Preview but it also seems like Adobe could make Reader for OS X read tagged PDFs like they did for Reader on Windows.

PDFs are not accessible on iOS or Android either. Is that Apple & Google's fault or Adobe's? Seems like Adobe could make Reader apps for iOS and Android that read tagged PDFs if they wanted to. I think we can definitely blame Microsoft for not making MS Office accessible on OS X right!?

At least we always have the universally accessible, HTML format that works on ANY platform ;)


Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com

On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> John,
>
>> I will not defend Apple on this one, but the issue regarding the
>> inaccessibility of PDF in the Mac OS is with Adobe.
>
> Let’s be clear.
>
> The issue of Adobe’s support for Tagged PDF on the Mac is Adobe’s problem.
>
> The issue of Apple’s support for Tagged PDF is Apple’s problem.
>
> PDF is just PDF. There’s nothing Adobe-specific about accessible PDF.
>
>> The Adobe Acrobat Reader
>> simply does not work with VoiceOver on the Mac OS.
>> Like many legacy third
>> party applications for the Mac OS, including Microsoft Office for the Mac,
>> Adobe has not been willing to spend the money to rewrite the application to
>> work with VoiceOver.
>> In fairness, it would be an expensive process,
>> particularly for a piece of software that is given away for free.
>
> That’s fair - but most Mac users use Preview to read PDF files.
>
> The other way to look at it is this:
>
> Apple - the richest software company on the planet - is unwilling (so far) to make Preview, their PDF viewer, work with accessible PDF.
>
> I contrasted Apple and NVDA in this regard in a blog-post earlier this year:
>
> http://duff-johnson.com/2013/03/01/inaccessible-by-choice-pdf-on-macos/
>
>> Currently, as others have mentioned, you can view/read PDF files using the
>> free Preview application built into Mac OSX. But this will only read the
>> text and you will lose all of the tagging including headings and layout
>> features.
>
> This is 100% Apple’s choice - it has nothing to do with Adobe. No-one forced Apple to support PDF in Preview!
>
>> As for making accessible PDF documents with the Mac OSX, the last time I
>> checked, the only way was with LibreOffice (and perhaps OpenOffice). You can
>> make an accessible word publisher document and save it as a PDF and it would
>> retain the proper tagging. Honestly, I haven't checked that for several
>> years, but I would assume it still works.
>
> It does. OpenOffice will create a tagged PDF on the Mac. I just checked / confirmed.
>
> Thank you for the reminder / correction.
>
> Duff.
>
> > >

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 5:31PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Paul,

On 25 Apr 2014, at 01:19, "Paul J. Adam" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> At least we always have the universally accessible, HTML format that works on ANY platform ;)

would you claim that HTML is a suitable document format, for representing standalone documents (from letters and invoices to sales brochures to manuals to fillable forms and so forth) as opposed to content delivered by a web server?

Olaf

From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 5:40PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

With HTML, JavaScript, CSS, WAI-ARIA the possibilities are pretty much endless. Only problem is storing the data, which HTML forms can't seem to do without writing it to a server. I'd love to replace fillable PDF forms with a normal HTML form that you could just hit file > save as and store like PDF/Word forms. I do recommend avoiding PDF when possible but I know that's not always possible ;)

Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com

On Apr 24, 2014, at 6:31 PM, Olaf Drümmer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
> On 25 Apr 2014, at 01:19, "Paul J. Adam" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> At least we always have the universally accessible, HTML format that works on ANY platform ;)
>
> would you claim that HTML is a suitable document format, for representing standalone documents (from letters and invoices to sales brochures to manuals to fillable forms and so forth) as opposed to content delivered by a web server?
>
> Olaf
>
> > >

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 5:50PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

On 25 Apr 2014, at 01:40, "Paul J. Adam" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> With HTML, JavaScript, CSS, WAI-ARIA the possibilities are pretty much endless.

Endless possibilities? Yes. But… reality? Not so much. Not when it comes to documents of any kind that are not delivered by a web server.

> Only problem is storing the data

Minor detail, right?


Isn't this all comparing apples (streamed content) with oranges (documents)?


Olaf

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 7:49PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

[Paul wrote] thought Adobe Reader/Acrobat was the only way to view tagged
PDFs with a screen reader on Windows?

I've seen Nuance PDF Reader work with JAWS 15 to provide access to PDF
forms on Windows 7 -- this includes access to structural information such
as headings and tables. The support isn't the same as Adobe
Reader/Acrobat-- but it provides another reference point.

Jonathan
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 7:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Does Windows include a Microsoft PDF viewer app by default that reads
tagged, accessible PDFs? I thought Adobe Reader/Acrobat was the only way
to view tagged PDFs with a screen reader on Windows?

Apple should totally make PDF's accessible directly in Preview but it also
seems like Adobe could make Reader for OS X read tagged PDFs like they did
for Reader on Windows.

PDFs are not accessible on iOS or Android either. Is that Apple & Google's
fault or Adobe's? Seems like Adobe could make Reader apps for iOS and
Android that read tagged PDFs if they wanted to. I think we can definitely
blame Microsoft for not making MS Office accessible on OS X right!?

At least we always have the universally accessible, HTML format that works
on ANY platform ;)


Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com

On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> John,
>
>> I will not defend Apple on this one, but the issue regarding the
>> inaccessibility of PDF in the Mac OS is with Adobe.
>
> Let's be clear.
>
> The issue of Adobe's support for Tagged PDF on the Mac is Adobe's
problem.
>
> The issue of Apple's support for Tagged PDF is Apple's problem.
>
> PDF is just PDF. There's nothing Adobe-specific about accessible PDF.
>
>> The Adobe Acrobat Reader
>> simply does not work with VoiceOver on the Mac OS.
>> Like many legacy third
>> party applications for the Mac OS, including Microsoft Office for the
>> Mac, Adobe has not been willing to spend the money to rewrite the
>> application to work with VoiceOver.
>> In fairness, it would be an expensive process, particularly for a
>> piece of software that is given away for free.
>
> That's fair - but most Mac users use Preview to read PDF files.
>
> The other way to look at it is this:
>
> Apple - the richest software company on the planet - is unwilling (so
far) to make Preview, their PDF viewer, work with accessible PDF.
>
> I contrasted Apple and NVDA in this regard in a blog-post earlier this
year:
>
> http://duff-johnson.com/2013/03/01/inaccessible-by-choice-pdf-on-macos
> /
>
>> Currently, as others have mentioned, you can view/read PDF files
>> using the free Preview application built into Mac OSX. But this will
>> only read the text and you will lose all of the tagging including
>> headings and layout features.
>
> This is 100% Apple's choice - it has nothing to do with Adobe. No-one
forced Apple to support PDF in Preview!
>
>> As for making accessible PDF documents with the Mac OSX, the last
>> time I checked, the only way was with LibreOffice (and perhaps
>> OpenOffice). You can make an accessible word publisher document and
>> save it as a PDF and it would retain the proper tagging. Honestly, I
>> haven't checked that for several years, but I would assume it still
works.
>
> It does. OpenOffice will create a tagged PDF on the Mac. I just checked
/ confirmed.
>
> Thank you for the reminder / correction.
>
> Duff.
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Apr 24 2014 9:00PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

> Does Windows include a Microsoft PDF viewer app by default that reads tagged, accessible PDFs?

Windows 8 is the first (I believe) Windows to include a default PDF viewer. I would not expect support for accessibility out of the egg with such software, not least because Windows users are already conditioned over the past 21 years to install 3rd part software (such as Adobe's Reader) to view PDF files.

Mac OS is a very different story.

> I thought Adobe Reader/Acrobat was the only way to view tagged PDFs with a screen reader on Windows?

Jonathan reported Nuance’s reader as working with JAWS. My understanding (that I have yet to confirm) is that Nitro’s reader also includes an accessibility API.

It’s up to each software manufacturer to take advantage of tagged PDF in their own software.

> Apple should totally make PDF's accessible directly in Preview but it also seems like Adobe could make Reader for OS X read tagged PDFs like they did for Reader on Windows.

No argument from me. I'm simply clarifying that it’s Apple’s choice whether or not to support tagged PDF in their own PDF viewer. What Adobe does or does not do isn’t relevant except with respect to their own software.

> PDFs are not accessible on iOS or Android either.

Once again… this is more properly stated as:

"Apple does not yet choose to support accessible with the default PDF viewer on iOS”, and
“Android developers have not yet chosen to support accessible PDF with their PDF readers."

Why am I being pedantic about how the problem is characterized? Accessible PDF is a reality. The question is: does a given developer support accessible PDF with product X on platform Y.

I’m trying to make these things as crystal-clear as possible so advocates may be armed with the most accurate information when discussing these subjects with software developers.

> Is that Apple & Google's fault or Adobe’s?

Answers...

- Apple at this time chooses not to support accessible PDF with their default PDF viewer (Preview) for Mac OS and iOS.

- Does Android even have a built-in PDF viewer? If so then Google is indeed responsible for ensuring their software supports accessible PDF.

- Adobe is responsible for Adobe’s software. They are not responsible for software they don’t produce.

> Seems like Adobe could make Reader apps for iOS and Android that read tagged PDFs if they wanted to.

They could (and should) modify Acrobat and Reader for Mac OS to support accessible PDF - no question about it.

> I think we can definitely blame Microsoft for not making MS Office accessible on OS X right!?

Yes, because it’s their software. One does not hold a company responsible for another company’s software...

> At least we always have the universally accessible, HTML format that works on ANY platform ;)

As Olaf said, that's apples vs. oranges.

Duff.

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 3:46AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

The thing to keep in perspective is that until Leopard there was no screen
reader for the Mac. So for Microsoft, Adobe and many others, there was no
implementation of accessibility or any way to predict how or if
accessibility would be implemented on a Mac.

Microsoft is trying to catch up as are other developers but it is going to
take time to "bend" old code to the hooks for accessibility. Not sure where
Adobe is on the scale of implementing a more accessible viewer so we have
more granular access.

I too, am inpatient for access on all my devices so that accessing content
is seamless and painless and doesn't require app specific tools like
built-in AT. I want to be able to use the tools I know to access any type of
content.

Having said that, I am now a Microsoft Accessibility MVP (as of April 23
this is a new category of MVP). I am still an MVP for Word and have been for
5 years. There are 70 of us Accessibility MVP's representing almost all
Microsoft products.

I know it's been a while on this list since I mentioned this, but if you
have accessibility issues or feature requests, let me know.

So, at any time, send me issues or feature requests and I'll pass them
along.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
Sent: April 24, 2014 7:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Does Windows include a Microsoft PDF viewer app by default that reads
tagged, accessible PDFs? I thought Adobe Reader/Acrobat was the only way to
view tagged PDFs with a screen reader on Windows?

Apple should totally make PDF's accessible directly in Preview but it also
seems like Adobe could make Reader for OS X read tagged PDFs like they did
for Reader on Windows.

PDFs are not accessible on iOS or Android either. Is that Apple & Google's
fault or Adobe's? Seems like Adobe could make Reader apps for iOS and
Android that read tagged PDFs if they wanted to. I think we can definitely
blame Microsoft for not making MS Office accessible on OS X right!?

At least we always have the universally accessible, HTML format that works
on ANY platform ;)


Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com

On Apr 24, 2014, at 5:42 PM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> John,
>
>> I will not defend Apple on this one, but the issue regarding the
>> inaccessibility of PDF in the Mac OS is with Adobe.
>
> Let's be clear.
>
> The issue of Adobe's support for Tagged PDF on the Mac is Adobe's problem.
>
> The issue of Apple's support for Tagged PDF is Apple's problem.
>
> PDF is just PDF. There's nothing Adobe-specific about accessible PDF.
>
>> The Adobe Acrobat Reader
>> simply does not work with VoiceOver on the Mac OS.
>> Like many legacy third
>> party applications for the Mac OS, including Microsoft Office for the
>> Mac, Adobe has not been willing to spend the money to rewrite the
>> application to work with VoiceOver.
>> In fairness, it would be an expensive process, particularly for a
>> piece of software that is given away for free.
>
> That's fair - but most Mac users use Preview to read PDF files.
>
> The other way to look at it is this:
>
> Apple - the richest software company on the planet - is unwilling (so far)
to make Preview, their PDF viewer, work with accessible PDF.
>
> I contrasted Apple and NVDA in this regard in a blog-post earlier this
year:
>
> http://duff-johnson.com/2013/03/01/inaccessible-by-choice-pdf-on-macos
> /
>
>> Currently, as others have mentioned, you can view/read PDF files
>> using the free Preview application built into Mac OSX. But this will
>> only read the text and you will lose all of the tagging including
>> headings and layout features.
>
> This is 100% Apple's choice - it has nothing to do with Adobe. No-one
forced Apple to support PDF in Preview!
>
>> As for making accessible PDF documents with the Mac OSX, the last
>> time I checked, the only way was with LibreOffice (and perhaps
>> OpenOffice). You can make an accessible word publisher document and
>> save it as a PDF and it would retain the proper tagging. Honestly, I
>> haven't checked that for several years, but I would assume it still
works.
>
> It does. OpenOffice will create a tagged PDF on the Mac. I just checked /
confirmed.
>
> Thank you for the reminder / correction.
>
> Duff.
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Greg Kraus
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 5:57AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

On the issue of LibreOffice and OpenOffice on OS X for creating tagged
PDFs, I had actually just written this blog post concerning the
subject, at least for word processing documents.

http://accessibility.oit.ncsu.edu/blog/2014/04/18/the-pain-of-accessible-pdfs-from-ms-word-on-mac-test-results/

This specifically looked at the workflow of starting with MS Word for
OS X and how to make an accessible PDF. There are limitations to this
workflow, but it highlights some of the issues on OS X.

One takeaway from this is if you use LibreOffice or OpenOffice for
word processing, alternative text must go in the title field, not the
description field, if you want that text to pass through to the tagged
PDF. This is different than what you must do with MS Word on Windows.

Greg

--
Greg Kraus
University IT Accessibility Coordinator
NC State University
919.513.4087
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://go.ncsu.edu/itaccess


>>> As for making accessible PDF documents with the Mac OSX, the last
>>> time I checked, the only way was with LibreOffice (and perhaps
>>> OpenOffice). You can make an accessible word publisher document and
>>> save it as a PDF and it would retain the proper tagging. Honestly, I
>>> haven't checked that for several years, but I would assume it still
> works.
>>
>> It does. OpenOffice will create a tagged PDF on the Mac. I just checked /
> confirmed.
>>

From: Lisa Snider
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 7:32AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks everyone, this has been a great discussion.

What strikes me as I read this thread is that I see huge technological
advances on Twitter almost every day now. They involve helping people
navigate the physical space, or are computer oriented (hardware,
peripherals, etc.). This is the most sustained and profound growth that I
have seen in the last 15 years, which is wonderful.

However, I am surprised at how far behind we are in terms of PDFs, and
things we have talked about in this thread. There is no reason for it
today, and okay you could also say that there was no reason for it 15 years
ago either. We are talking huge companies, not start ups...

Although I guess the same can be said for websites too. Some days I am
amazed that we are still talking about the same things we talked about in
99...

Just my 2 cents for a Friday morning!

Cheers

Lisa




On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Greg Kraus < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On the issue of LibreOffice and OpenOffice on OS X for creating tagged
> PDFs, I had actually just written this blog post concerning the
> subject, at least for word processing documents.
>
>
> http://accessibility.oit.ncsu.edu/blog/2014/04/18/the-pain-of-accessible-pdfs-from-ms-word-on-mac-test-results/
>
> This specifically looked at the workflow of starting with MS Word for
> OS X and how to make an accessible PDF. There are limitations to this
> workflow, but it highlights some of the issues on OS X.
>
> One takeaway from this is if you use LibreOffice or OpenOffice for
> word processing, alternative text must go in the title field, not the
> description field, if you want that text to pass through to the tagged
> PDF. This is different than what you must do with MS Word on Windows.
>
> Greg
>
> --
> Greg Kraus
> University IT Accessibility Coordinator
> NC State University
> 919.513.4087
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://go.ncsu.edu/itaccess
>
>
> >>> As for making accessible PDF documents with the Mac OSX, the last
> >>> time I checked, the only way was with LibreOffice (and perhaps
> >>> OpenOffice). You can make an accessible word publisher document and
> >>> save it as a PDF and it would retain the proper tagging. Honestly, I
> >>> haven't checked that for several years, but I would assume it still
> > works.
> >>
> >> It does. OpenOffice will create a tagged PDF on the Mac. I just checked
> /
> > confirmed.
> >>
> > > >



--
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 8:17AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Lisa,

> What strikes me as I read this thread is that I see huge technological
> advances on Twitter almost every day now. They involve helping people
> navigate the physical space, or are computer oriented (hardware,
> peripherals, etc.). This is the most sustained and profound growth that I
> have seen in the last 15 years, which is wonderful.
>
> However, I am surprised at how far behind we are in terms of PDFs, and
> things we have talked about in this thread. There is no reason for it
> today, and okay you could also say that there was no reason for it 15 years
> ago either. We are talking huge companies, not start ups...

Twitter is hip, modern… even sexy.

PDF is old enough to drink (in the US) which is very very old indeed in the computing world.

Much as PDF is indipsensible (theres no realistic alternative for “electronic hardcopy”), even I can’t claim it’s sexy.

Once the larger companies (and the AT vendors) get their act together the question of “Is PDF accessible on X” will be taken for granted.

The only remaining question will be the one that never goes away, irrespective of format: “Do users know how to author for accessibility."

Twitter’s great advantage in this regard is that it’s so simple (from an author’s perspective) that it’s almost impossible to get wrong.

Duff.

From: Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 8:25AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Duff,

You struck gold with the statement of "Do users know how to author for accessibility.". In the agency in which I work as in others I imagine, is where much of the problem begins.

Recently, there was a "Resource " event and I was sitting at the Section 508 table. One employee became indignant and rather nasty when we tried to inform her about 508. She left in a huff. That's problematic for what we do.

Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 10:18 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Lisa,

> What strikes me as I read this thread is that I see huge technological
> advances on Twitter almost every day now. They involve helping people
> navigate the physical space, or are computer oriented (hardware,
> peripherals, etc.). This is the most sustained and profound growth that I
> have seen in the last 15 years, which is wonderful.
>
> However, I am surprised at how far behind we are in terms of PDFs, and
> things we have talked about in this thread. There is no reason for it
> today, and okay you could also say that there was no reason for it 15 years
> ago either. We are talking huge companies, not start ups...

Twitter is hip, modern... even sexy.

PDF is old enough to drink (in the US) which is very very old indeed in the computing world.

Much as PDF is indipsensible (theres no realistic alternative for "electronic hardcopy"), even I can't claim it's sexy.

Once the larger companies (and the AT vendors) get their act together the question of "Is PDF accessible on X" will be taken for granted.

The only remaining question will be the one that never goes away, irrespective of format: "Do users know how to author for accessibility."

Twitter's great advantage in this regard is that it's so simple (from an author's perspective) that it's almost impossible to get wrong.

Duff.
This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.

From: John E Brandt
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 9:00AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Duff, you reminded me of a story of when I was the "webmaster" (remember
those) for a small university and my new boss was convinced that PDF and
Adobe Acrobat were "old technology" and would be "gone" soon. She insisted
that I stop posting PDF documents that faculty had given to me to put on the
website. I did what I was told but indicated that I thought she was
incorrect in her analysis.

That was 1998. I long ago left that job. She is still there...

~j

John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design,
development and consultation
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

@jebswebs

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 10:18 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Lisa,

> What strikes me as I read this thread is that I see huge technological
> advances on Twitter almost every day now. They involve helping people
> navigate the physical space, or are computer oriented (hardware,
> peripherals, etc.). This is the most sustained and profound growth
> that I have seen in the last 15 years, which is wonderful.
>
> However, I am surprised at how far behind we are in terms of PDFs, and
> things we have talked about in this thread. There is no reason for it
> today, and okay you could also say that there was no reason for it 15
> years ago either. We are talking huge companies, not start ups...

Twitter is hip, modern. even sexy.

PDF is old enough to drink (in the US) which is very very old indeed in the
computing world.

Much as PDF is indipsensible (theres no realistic alternative for
"electronic hardcopy"), even I can't claim it's sexy.

Once the larger companies (and the AT vendors) get their act together the
question of "Is PDF accessible on X" will be taken for granted.

The only remaining question will be the one that never goes away,
irrespective of format: "Do users know how to author for accessibility."

Twitter's great advantage in this regard is that it's so simple (from an
author's perspective) that it's almost impossible to get wrong.

Duff.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 9:01AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Michelle,

> You struck gold with the statement of "Do users know how to author for accessibility.". In the agency in which I work as in others I imagine, is where much of the problem begins.
>
> Recently, there was a "Resource " event and I was sitting at the Section 508 table. One employee became indignant and rather nasty when we tried to inform her about 508. She left in a huff. That's problematic for what we do.


Many people are very sensitive to the suggestion that they don’t know how to (properly) work with a tool they use everyday.

I think the right approach in this context (to the extent possible) is to present the discussion along the lines of: “Cool tricks to make writing more fun and productive” rather than accessibility per se.

Instead of implying that users “don’t know how” to deal with headings (for example), it’s much easier to present heading styles as a cool way to…

- Manage the look and feel of all headings at once, throughout the document
- Create a Table of Contents
- Help with navigation (via the Document Map panel in MS Word)

and so on.

If the subject is approached as: “We’re going to teach you how to write in a way that others can read” the result is usually… unfortunate.

Duff.

From: Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 9:36AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Duff,

Thanks for your comments and I agree with them. This woman was resistant after she asked if the documents she sent in emails had to be accessible and was told "yes". That's usually where I get most of my problem documents. Indeed, some need to be stroked. into it but lack of training and constant upgrades add to the problem.

We are preparing to upgrade to Microsoft 2013. With what I expect to get along the lines of training, my stuff may look a little crazy for a while as well.

Michelle

Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 11:02 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Michelle,

> You struck gold with the statement of "Do users know how to author for accessibility.". In the agency in which I work as in others I imagine, is where much of the problem begins.
>
> Recently, there was a "Resource " event and I was sitting at the Section 508 table. One employee became indignant and rather nasty when we tried to inform her about 508. She left in a huff. That's problematic for what we do.


Many people are very sensitive to the suggestion that they don't know how to (properly) work with a tool they use everyday.

I think the right approach in this context (to the extent possible) is to present the discussion along the lines of: "Cool tricks to make writing more fun and productive" rather than accessibility per se.

Instead of implying that users "don't know how" to deal with headings (for example), it's much easier to present heading styles as a cool way to...

- Manage the look and feel of all headings at once, throughout the document
- Create a Table of Contents
- Help with navigation (via the Document Map panel in MS Word)

and so on.

If the subject is approached as: "We're going to teach you how to write in a way that others can read" the result is usually... unfortunate.

Duff.
This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 11:24AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

[Duff wrote] My understanding (that I have yet to confirm) is that Nitro's
reader also includes an accessibility API.

So far a few quick checks don't seem to produce anything for me with NVDA,
JAWS, or Inspect. If anyone knows anything on the Nitro PDF Reader
Accessibility support or Nuance's PDF Reader support I'd be interested.
Last time I checked Nuance's PDF Create Pro on Windows had a tag tree for
tagging documents.

Jonathan

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:01 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

> Does Windows include a Microsoft PDF viewer app by default that reads
tagged, accessible PDFs?

Windows 8 is the first (I believe) Windows to include a default PDF
viewer. I would not expect support for accessibility out of the egg with
such software, not least because Windows users are already conditioned
over the past 21 years to install 3rd part software (such as Adobe's
Reader) to view PDF files.

Mac OS is a very different story.

> I thought Adobe Reader/Acrobat was the only way to view tagged PDFs with
a screen reader on Windows?

Jonathan reported Nuance's reader as working with JAWS. My understanding
(that I have yet to confirm) is that Nitro's reader also includes an
accessibility API.

It's up to each software manufacturer to take advantage of tagged PDF in
their own software.

> Apple should totally make PDF's accessible directly in Preview but it
also seems like Adobe could make Reader for OS X read tagged PDFs like
they did for Reader on Windows.

No argument from me. I'm simply clarifying that it's Apple's choice
whether or not to support tagged PDF in their own PDF viewer. What Adobe
does or does not do isn't relevant except with respect to their own
software.

> PDFs are not accessible on iOS or Android either.

Once again. this is more properly stated as:

"Apple does not yet choose to support accessible with the default PDF
viewer on iOS", and "Android developers have not yet chosen to support
accessible PDF with their PDF readers."

Why am I being pedantic about how the problem is characterized? Accessible
PDF is a reality. The question is: does a given developer support
accessible PDF with product X on platform Y.

I'm trying to make these things as crystal-clear as possible so advocates
may be armed with the most accurate information when discussing these
subjects with software developers.

> Is that Apple & Google's fault or Adobe's?

Answers...

- Apple at this time chooses not to support accessible PDF with their
default PDF viewer (Preview) for Mac OS and iOS.

- Does Android even have a built-in PDF viewer? If so then Google is
indeed responsible for ensuring their software supports accessible PDF.

- Adobe is responsible for Adobe's software. They are not responsible for
software they don't produce.

> Seems like Adobe could make Reader apps for iOS and Android that read
tagged PDFs if they wanted to.

They could (and should) modify Acrobat and Reader for Mac OS to support
accessible PDF - no question about it.

> I think we can definitely blame Microsoft for not making MS Office
accessible on OS X right!?

Yes, because it's their software. One does not hold a company responsible
for another company's software...

> At least we always have the universally accessible, HTML format that
> works on ANY platform ;)

As Olaf said, that's apples vs. oranges.

Duff.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 11:38AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

On Apr 25, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> [Duff wrote] My understanding (that I have yet to confirm) is that Nitro's
> reader also includes an accessibility API.
>
> So far a few quick checks don't seem to produce anything for me with NVDA,
> JAWS, or Inspect.

Thanks for checking, Jonathan.

I couldn't find the source for my previous supposition either. :-(

I’ll be chatting with them…

Duff.

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 11:44AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

I have a document on my website to help orient yourself to Word 2013 and
some other Office 2013 applications:
http://www.karlencommunications.com/MicrosoftOfficeAccessibility2013.html

Also, let me know if you have questions as you're working...where did this
go, what is this? How do I change the UI so it isn't all white?

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Clark, Michelle -
NRCS, Washington, DC
Sent: April 25, 2014 11:36 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Duff,

Thanks for your comments and I agree with them. This woman was resistant
after she asked if the documents she sent in emails had to be accessible and
was told "yes". That's usually where I get most of my problem documents.
Indeed, some need to be stroked. into it but lack of training and
constant upgrades add to the problem.

We are preparing to upgrade to Microsoft 2013. With what I expect to get
along the lines of training, my stuff may look a little crazy for a while as
well.

Michelle

Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 11:02 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Michelle,

> You struck gold with the statement of "Do users know how to author for
accessibility.". In the agency in which I work as in others I imagine, is
where much of the problem begins.
>
> Recently, there was a "Resource " event and I was sitting at the Section
508 table. One employee became indignant and rather nasty when we tried to
inform her about 508. She left in a huff. That's problematic for what we do.


Many people are very sensitive to the suggestion that they don't know how to
(properly) work with a tool they use everyday.

I think the right approach in this context (to the extent possible) is to
present the discussion along the lines of: "Cool tricks to make writing more
fun and productive" rather than accessibility per se.

Instead of implying that users "don't know how" to deal with headings (for
example), it's much easier to present heading styles as a cool way to...

- Manage the look and feel of all headings at once, throughout the document
- Create a Table of Contents
- Help with navigation (via the Document Map panel in MS Word)

and so on.

If the subject is approached as: "We're going to teach you how to write in a
way that others can read" the result is usually... unfortunate.

Duff.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =





This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely
for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message
or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law
and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the
email immediately.

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Athol J Gow
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 11:51AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Dear list members,
On the subject of Mac OS conversion of Word/PowerPoint files to PDFs, we've noticed another problem that is related (I think) to the unicode font issue - i.e., the PDF rendering wants to use unicode font and if it can't find a font set that matches the one in the original document, it substitutes different symbol and letter combinations for some characters in the resultant PDF. This can make some words unintelligible if you're listening to the PDF with a screen reader.
In our experience, it seems to happen most frequently with PDFs that are created on a Mac. We would love to give instructors and faculty members some simple instructions on how to avoid this problem - does anyone has any guidance on which fonts to use and which to avoid when creating MS Office documents on a Mac?
Thanks,
Athol Gow


Athol J. Gow,
Manager, Library Accessibility Services,
University of Guelph Library,
50 Stone Rd.,
Guelph, Ontario
N1G 2W1
Canada
Phone: 519-824-4120 ext. 52312
Fax: 519-836-0435



----- Original Message -----

From: "Michelle Clark - NRCS, Washington, DC" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 11:36:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Duff,

Thanks for your comments and I agree with them. This woman was resistant after she asked if the documents she sent in emails had to be accessible and was told "yes". That's usually where I get most of my problem documents. Indeed, some need to be stroked. into it but lack of training and constant upgrades add to the problem.

We are preparing to upgrade to Microsoft 2013. With what I expect to get along the lines of training, my stuff may look a little crazy for a while as well.

Michelle

Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 11:02 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Michelle,

> You struck gold with the statement of "Do users know how to author for accessibility.". In the agency in which I work as in others I imagine, is where much of the problem begins.
>
> Recently, there was a "Resource " event and I was sitting at the Section 508 table. One employee became indignant and rather nasty when we tried to inform her about 508. She left in a huff. That's problematic for what we do.


Many people are very sensitive to the suggestion that they don't know how to (properly) work with a tool they use everyday.

I think the right approach in this context (to the extent possible) is to present the discussion along the lines of: "Cool tricks to make writing more fun and productive" rather than accessibility per se.

Instead of implying that users "don't know how" to deal with headings (for example), it's much easier to present heading styles as a cool way to...

- Manage the look and feel of all headings at once, throughout the document
- Create a Table of Contents
- Help with navigation (via the Document Map panel in MS Word)

and so on.

If the subject is approached as: "We're going to teach you how to write in a way that others can read" the result is usually... unfortunate.

Duff.
This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.

From: Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC
Date: Fri, Apr 25 2014 1:39PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you. This certainly can help and I will send the information on to others.

Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Karlen Communications
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 1:45 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

I have a document on my website to help orient yourself to Word 2013 and
some other Office 2013 applications:
http://www.karlencommunications.com/MicrosoftOfficeAccessibility2013.html

Also, let me know if you have questions as you're working...where did this
go, what is this? How do I change the UI so it isn't all white?

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Clark, Michelle -
NRCS, Washington, DC
Sent: April 25, 2014 11:36 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Duff,

Thanks for your comments and I agree with them. This woman was resistant
after she asked if the documents she sent in emails had to be accessible and
was told "yes". That's usually where I get most of my problem documents.
Indeed, some need to be stroked. into it but lack of training and
constant upgrades add to the problem.

We are preparing to upgrade to Microsoft 2013. With what I expect to get
along the lines of training, my stuff may look a little crazy for a while as
well.

Michelle

Michelle

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 11:02 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Michelle,

> You struck gold with the statement of "Do users know how to author for
accessibility.". In the agency in which I work as in others I imagine, is
where much of the problem begins.
>
> Recently, there was a "Resource " event and I was sitting at the Section
508 table. One employee became indignant and rather nasty when we tried to
inform her about 508. She left in a huff. That's problematic for what we do.


Many people are very sensitive to the suggestion that they don't know how to
(properly) work with a tool they use everyday.

I think the right approach in this context (to the extent possible) is to
present the discussion along the lines of: "Cool tricks to make writing more
fun and productive" rather than accessibility per se.

Instead of implying that users "don't know how" to deal with headings (for
example), it's much easier to present heading styles as a cool way to...

- Manage the look and feel of all headings at once, throughout the document
- Create a Table of Contents
- Help with navigation (via the Document Map panel in MS Word)

and so on.

If the subject is approached as: "We're going to teach you how to write in a
way that others can read" the result is usually... unfortunate.

Duff.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =





This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely
for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message
or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law
and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the
email immediately.

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Greg Alchin
Date: Sat, Apr 26 2014 8:16AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi all,
As someone coming in late to the conversation I have always found the Accessible Digital Office Documents (ADOD) Project by Inclusive Design Research Centre (IDRC) really helpful on this point.
Their section on Presentation Applications covers not only various versions of PowerPoint plus a range of other applications. See http://adod.idrc.ocad.ca
I hope this helps.

regards

Greg Alchin
Learning Experience Designer

From: Lisa Snider
Date: Mon, Apr 28 2014 11:04AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks everyone! Some great information, appreciate it.

Duff, you made me laugh with PDFs not being sexy...Now if we could only get
the world to understand that usable and accessible is sexy!

Cheers

Lisa


On Fri, Apr 25, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>
> Twitter is hip, modern... even sexy.
>
> PDF is old enough to drink (in the US) which is very very old indeed in
> the computing world.
>
> Much as PDF is indipsensible (theres no realistic alternative for
> "electronic hardcopy"), even I can't claim it's sexy.
>
> Once the larger companies (and the AT vendors) get their act together the
> question of "Is PDF accessible on X" will be taken for granted.
>
> The only remaining question will be the one that never goes away,
> irrespective of format: "Do users know how to author for accessibility."
>
> Twitter's great advantage in this regard is that it's so simple (from an
> author's perspective) that it's almost impossible to get wrong.
>
> Duff.
> >
>


--
Lisa Snider
Electronic Records Archivist
Harry Ransom Center
The University of Texas at Austin
P.O. Box 7219
Austin, Texas 78713-7219
P: 512-232-4616
www.hrc.utexas.edu

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Tue, Apr 29 2014 3:12PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

> On the subject of Mac OS conversion of Word/PowerPoint files to PDFs, we've noticed another problem that is related (I think) to the unicode font issue - i.e., the PDF rendering wants to use unicode font and if it can't find a font set that matches the one in the original document, it substitutes different symbol and letter combinations for some characters in the resultant PDF. This can make some words unintelligible if you're listening to the PDF with a screen reader.
> In our experience, it seems to happen most frequently with PDFs that are created on a Mac. We would love to give instructors and faculty members some simple instructions on how to avoid this problem - does anyone has any guidance on which fonts to use and which to avoid when creating MS Office documents on a Mac?

The issue is: fonts must be embedded when the file is created. This applies for files created on any platform.

For the Mac, this thread provides some tips to addressing the issue:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2803119

I hope this helps.

Duff.

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Apr 29 2014 8:38PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

There is one heck of a lot of misinformation in that online forum thread!
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2803119 No one seemed to know the
details about fonts.

Summary for the WebAim original poster:

1) Use only OpenType fonts on Macs and Windows.

2) Stop using TrueType and PostScript fonts, both are deprecated font
technologies since 2000. They lack extended character sets which contain
many characters that will help accessibility. Plus, they lack some key
technical requirements for today's publishing technologies, such as EPUBs.
FYI, OpenType fonts can have up to 64,000 characters and are based on a
standardized, universal Unicode character set. That means better
accessibility now, and definitely in the future. Hopefully it will minimize
all those strange characters AT users run into in documents.

3) On the Mac, don't use dFonts as they too present problems in EPUBs and
accessible technologies.

4) Always always always embed your fonts into the PDF. Did I mention always?

5) OpenType fonts come in 2 flavors: TrueType and PostScript. For practical
purposes, this means absolutely nothing. As long as the font is OpenType, it
will be OK to use. The TrueType and PostScript flavors mostly just define
the original source code of the font. Example, Microsoft's fonts were
originally TrueType so their OpenType versions are OpenType/TrueType.
Adobe's font were originally PostScript so their OpenType versions are
OpenType/PostScript. As I said before, this doesn't affect accessibility or
making PDFs. In fact, I haven't seen it affect anything whatsoever except
for producing a lot of hogwash on Internet forums. So use OpenType,
regardless of the flavor.

6) TrueType fonts have the file extension dot TTF. OpenType fonts can have
either dot OTF or dot TTF. Therefore, you can't always tell if you're using
an OpenType font or not. Sighted users can see a blue-green O icon next to
the font name for all OpenType fonts, both TrueType flavored and PostScript
flavored. A blue TT icon appears next to TrueType fonts.

7) Recent operating systems from both Apple and Windows ship with
industry-standard OpenType fonts. Windows also includes a handful of old
TrueType fonts, and Apple ships with a handful of dFonts, neither of which
should be used to make accessible documents or EPUBs. I do not have a good
reason why these 2 companies still ship their operating systems with
out-of-date fonts.

8) The Calibri font mentioned in the forum is part of Microsoft's Cleartype
font collection that were developed specifically for better legibility and
readability on computer screens. They are installed with MS Windows and
Office, so they're fairly well distributed on Windows systems. And they are
in OpenType format.

That was probably more than you ever intended to know about fonts! Being a
former typesetter many decades ago, I couldn't give just a quick
explanation.

-Bevi Chagnon
- PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, and Developers.
- Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
- 508 Workshop: www.workshop.pubcom.com
- US Federal Training: www.gpo.gov/customers/theinstitute.htm

-----Original Message-----

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 5:12 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

> On the subject of Mac OS conversion of Word/PowerPoint files to PDFs,
we've noticed another problem that is related (I think) to the unicode font
issue - i.e., the PDF rendering wants to use unicode font and if it can't
find a font set that matches the one in the original document, it
substitutes different symbol and letter combinations for some characters in
the resultant PDF. This can make some words unintelligible if you're
listening to the PDF with a screen reader.
> In our experience, it seems to happen most frequently with PDFs that are
created on a Mac. We would love to give instructors and faculty members some
simple instructions on how to avoid this problem - does anyone has any
guidance on which fonts to use and which to avoid when creating MS Office
documents on a Mac?

The issue is: fonts must be embedded when the file is created. This applies
for files created on any platform.

For the Mac, this thread provides some tips to addressing the issue:

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2803119

I hope this helps.

Duff.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2014 2:53AM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bevi,

sorry to disagree with some of what you state… (and apologies for making it even more difficult for some on this list to understand fonts any better).

Anyways, here goes my summary:

[1] Let's distinguish between
- fonts embedded in PDF
- fonts embedded in EPUB
- fonts used for authoring (whether Word, PowerPoint, OpenOffice, Indesign or whatever else)

[2] Fonts in PDF
- always embed
- it doesn't matter what type a font is once it is embedded in PDF, as long as it is embedded correctly (good ole' PostScript Type 1 fonts can be just fine, and mighty be encountered even if an OpenType fonts was used for authoring; actually, in many cases OpenType fonts will actually be embedded as trueType or PostScript Type 1 fonts, without any loss of functionality or quality)

[3] Fonts in EPUB
- EPUB is a very muddy area when it comes to devices and programs that present them, and how they use fonts
- many EPUB readers use their own built-in fonts anyway
- where EPUB readers do actually use embedded fonts, OpenType and TrueType are your best bets

[4] Fonts used during authoring
- Microsoft doesn't support PostScript flavoured OpenType fonts as well as it does support TrueType flavoured OpenType fonts
- Adobe and Apple can handle any font type equally well
- with maximum cross platform in mind (e.g. for office applications) use TrueType flavoured OpenType or TrueType (almost always the filename suffix will be .TTF)
- the difference between TrueType flavoured OpenType and plain TrueType is mostly in functionality (e.g. addressing special or alternate characters in a font, advanced ligature like character combinations in foreign scripts, …), but not in Unicode support

If we were to make a distinction regarding authoring between "user communities":
- if you are in the office world, use TrueType flavored OpenType or TrueType
- if you are in the layout and graphic design world, use any OpenType or TrueType font

Disclaimer: there are fonts that are good, and there are fonts that are not so good - regardless what type they come in. Most fonts that come with recent versions of operating systems or applications from Adobe, Apple, and Microsoft are usually pretty good.

And by the way - old fonts are often available in today's operating systems for backward compatibility.

Olaf




On 30 Apr 2014, at 04:38, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> There is one heck of a lot of misinformation in that online forum thread!
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2803119 No one seemed to know the
> details about fonts.
>
> Summary for the WebAim original poster:
>
> 1) Use only OpenType fonts on Macs and Windows.
>
> 2) Stop using TrueType and PostScript fonts, both are deprecated font
> technologies since 2000. They lack extended character sets which contain
> many characters that will help accessibility. Plus, they lack some key
> technical requirements for today's publishing technologies, such as EPUBs.
> FYI, OpenType fonts can have up to 64,000 characters and are based on a
> standardized, universal Unicode character set. That means better
> accessibility now, and definitely in the future. Hopefully it will minimize
> all those strange characters AT users run into in documents.
>
> 3) On the Mac, don't use dFonts as they too present problems in EPUBs and
> accessible technologies.
>
> 4) Always always always embed your fonts into the PDF. Did I mention always?
>
> 5) OpenType fonts come in 2 flavors: TrueType and PostScript. For practical
> purposes, this means absolutely nothing. As long as the font is OpenType, it
> will be OK to use. The TrueType and PostScript flavors mostly just define
> the original source code of the font. Example, Microsoft's fonts were
> originally TrueType so their OpenType versions are OpenType/TrueType.
> Adobe's font were originally PostScript so their OpenType versions are
> OpenType/PostScript. As I said before, this doesn't affect accessibility or
> making PDFs. In fact, I haven't seen it affect anything whatsoever except
> for producing a lot of hogwash on Internet forums. So use OpenType,
> regardless of the flavor.
>
> 6) TrueType fonts have the file extension dot TTF. OpenType fonts can have
> either dot OTF or dot TTF. Therefore, you can't always tell if you're using
> an OpenType font or not. Sighted users can see a blue-green O icon next to
> the font name for all OpenType fonts, both TrueType flavored and PostScript
> flavored. A blue TT icon appears next to TrueType fonts.
>
> 7) Recent operating systems from both Apple and Windows ship with
> industry-standard OpenType fonts. Windows also includes a handful of old
> TrueType fonts, and Apple ships with a handful of dFonts, neither of which
> should be used to make accessible documents or EPUBs. I do not have a good
> reason why these 2 companies still ship their operating systems with
> out-of-date fonts.
>
> 8) The Calibri font mentioned in the forum is part of Microsoft's Cleartype
> font collection that were developed specifically for better legibility and
> readability on computer screens. They are installed with MS Windows and
> Office, so they're fairly well distributed on Windows systems. And they are
> in OpenType format.
>
> That was probably more than you ever intended to know about fonts! Being a
> former typesetter many decades ago, I couldn't give just a quick
> explanation.
>
> -Bevi Chagnon
> - PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, and Developers.
> - Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> - 508 Workshop: www.workshop.pubcom.com
> - US Federal Training: www.gpo.gov/customers/theinstitute.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 5:12 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
>
>> On the subject of Mac OS conversion of Word/PowerPoint files to PDFs,
> we've noticed another problem that is related (I think) to the unicode font
> issue - i.e., the PDF rendering wants to use unicode font and if it can't
> find a font set that matches the one in the original document, it
> substitutes different symbol and letter combinations for some characters in
> the resultant PDF. This can make some words unintelligible if you're
> listening to the PDF with a screen reader.
>> In our experience, it seems to happen most frequently with PDFs that are
> created on a Mac. We would love to give instructors and faculty members some
> simple instructions on how to avoid this problem - does anyone has any
> guidance on which fonts to use and which to avoid when creating MS Office
> documents on a Mac?
>
> The issue is: fonts must be embedded when the file is created. This applies
> for files created on any platform.
>
> For the Mac, this thread provides some tips to addressing the issue:
>
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2803119
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Duff.
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > >

From: Shawn Henry
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2014 9:10AM
Subject: Re: Note on ClearType fonts [was: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question]
← Previous message | Next message →

On 4/29/2014 9:38 PM, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
> 8) The Calibri font mentioned in the forum is part of Microsoft's Cleartype
> font collection that were developed specifically for better legibility and
> readability on computer screens. They are installed with MS Windows and
> Office, so they're fairly well distributed on Windows systems. And they are
> in OpenType format.

fyi, some people have trouble reading these fonts. For example, see "Accessibility issues due to sub-pixel rendering" at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/text-customization/p7>;, which includes: "it is apparent that a number of other people struggle with ClearType and complain of blurring...".

Regards,
~Shawn

-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)
e-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
phone: +1.617.395.7664
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2014 9:22AM
Subject: Re: Note on ClearType fonts [was: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question]
← Previous message | Next message →

On 30 Apr 2014, at 17:10, Shawn Henry < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> fyi, some people have trouble reading these fonts. For example, see "Accessibility issues due to sub-pixel rendering" at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/2012/text-customization/p7>;, which includes: "it is apparent that a number of other people struggle with ClearType and complain of blurring...".

there will always be someone struggling with something. Regarding display, this issue will go away over time with high DPI screens.

In general it should be noted that some of the burden on making content accessible is on the side of the tool presenting the content. So instead of avoiding the use of a certain font options should be considered like:
- use of a viewer that does not use ClearType
- increase text size (should reduce impact on ClearType induced problems)
- (temporarily) switch to grayscale display (should reduce impact of ClearType induced problems)
- use of text customisation functionality where text content is shown based on user controlled styling

Olaf

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Wed, Apr 30 2014 10:16PM
Subject: Re: PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
← Previous message | No next message

Hi Olaf,
Sorry to disagree with some of what you state. <grin>

My points:

1. My initial post recommended using OpenType fonts specifically because
they have the potential to improve accessibility. That is, Unicode's
standardized character set, when correctly deployed by various assistive
technologies, can provide an unlimited number of characters for all
languages. Right now, the industry says approximately 64,000 characters can
represent the world's languages plus scientific, mathematical, etc.
characters, but in theory the set can be expanded and limitless.

Example: For a GIS coordinate with minutes and seconds to be correctly
voiced by a screen reader, the author should use the specific Unicode
character for minutes and seconds, not the characters for single and double
quotes nor the ones for inches and feet. With TrueType and PostScript fonts,
we stuck with just single and double quotes because the ASCII character set
doesn't have the other characters; consequently, GIS datapoints are
mis-voiced.

So in this example, there's no chance of a GIS data point being voiced
correctly if TrueType is used. None. With OpenType, there's a chance that it
will.

As we discussed a few months back, AT doesn't yet give us voicing of most of
the Unicode character set, so a GIS datapoint won't be voiced correctly
right now, but hopefully that deficiency will be corrected in the future.
(Soon, I hope! My firm works on quite a few maps.) OpenType and its Unicode
character set is our only hope.

2. Since this is a list about accessibility, I really didn't want to bog it
down with many more reasons why OpenType should be used rather than
deprecated TrueType and PostScript fonts. Here's a short summary of other
benefits:

a. TrueType and PostScript use the ASCII character set, which has limited
number of characters (approximately 127), and future incompatibility with
digital technologies. OpenType uses Unicode and therefore has an unlimited
character set (see above). UTF-8 encoding provides backward compatibility
with older technologies (in theory, at least).

b. Authors and developers who create documents for a variety of technologies
— including print, web, mobile, multi-media, and next month's new gadget
—work on both Apple and Windows workstations. Cross-platform sharing of
works-in-progress is critical. OpenType fonts allow them to share project
files between platforms and match the fonts. PostScript and TrueType fonts,
on the other hand, are platform specific, which has caused huge problems
during development for the past 30 years. This problem alone has been a
money pit for the design industry.

c. For database-generated and automated documents, fonts based on Unicode
(OpenType) can be the best way to ensure that what's in the database will
actually translate into the final laid-out document and PDF.

d. Adobe just released TypeKit, its utility for installing and managing
fonts for those using Creative Suite. Given that Adobe InDesign is used to
create the majority of the world's publications (only MS Word and PowerPoint
are used to create more documents, but they're mostly office documents not
designed publications), graphic designers are being encouraged to migrate to
OpenType fonts. In fact, Adobe took its PostScript fonts off the market over
10 years ago and now offers only OpenType fonts. There might be some
significant reasons why they did this! <grin>

Olaf wrote: "where EPUB readers do actually use embedded fonts, OpenType and
TrueType are your best bets."

I work with engineers creating EPUB technologies. Advice from them: ditch
the TrueType and PostScript fonts. It's OpenType, regardless of the flavor.
They are not actively developing their technologies for font technologies
deprecated 14 years ago that use ASCII rather than Unicode.

Olaf wrote:
"- Microsoft doesn't support PostScript flavoured OpenType fonts as well as
it does support TrueType flavoured OpenType fonts"

Would love to know what you've experienced here, Olaf. After many thousands
of documents that have been produced by my firm, we haven't had problems
with any flavor of OpenType with any MS program.

Both Adobe and Microsoft developed OpenType...together. They knew what they
were getting into. Plus, MS Windows has supported OpenType-PostScript since
2000...the same year that OpenType was released. See
http://www.myfonts.com/info/opentype-support-in-applications/

If you have a sample of OpenType problems in a Microsoft environment, I'd
love to see it and learn about it. Please share, Olaf!

Olaf wrote:
"- with maximum cross platform in mind (e.g. for office applications) use
TrueType flavoured OpenType or TrueType (almost always the filename suffix
will be .TTF)"

Again, based on my firm's cross-platform work with thousands of documents,
any OpenType font (PostScript-flavored or TrueType-flavored) converts
seamlessly with no corruption or loss of characters when OpenType fonts are
used in the source document.

Used correctly, that is.

The Unicode character set used by all OpenType fonts standardizes the
characters, regardless of the platform. TrueType uses ASCII encoding, not
Unicode, so upper level characters can become garbled when the file crosses
platforms, or even between workstations using the same platform.

There are some problems that occur, but we find that they are user errors:
— Using the wrong character in the document.
Example: client inserted an accented character in MS Word, but didn't pay
attention to the font. Everything in the document used an OpenType font,
except for this one character which used a TrueType font. That character was
lost when the document was opened on our systems which didn't have that
specific font.

— Using an OpenType font with a limited character set.
Example: client's file used an accented character for an Eastern European
language that was in their OpenType font. When the file was brought into our
system, our OpenType version of that font didn't have that specific
character; our font had a smaller character set (was an older version and
the font manufacturer had released a new version with an extended character
set). We upgraded our version of the font and the problem was solved.

Bottom line from my firm: OpenType.
Don't give a rat's patootie about the flavor, TrueType-flavored or
PostScript-flavored, they work seamlessly for us on both platforms in all
software used for developing for all publishing and digital media
technologies.

R.I.P. to TrueType and PostScript. <wink>

—BJ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com — Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 — www.Pubcom.com/classes


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Olaf Drümmer
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 4:54 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question

Hi Bevi,

sorry to disagree with some of what you state… (and apologies for making it
even more difficult for some on this list to understand fonts any better).

Anyways, here goes my summary:

[1] Let's distinguish between
- fonts embedded in PDF
- fonts embedded in EPUB
- fonts used for authoring (whether Word, PowerPoint, OpenOffice, Indesign
or whatever else)

[2] Fonts in PDF
- always embed
- it doesn't matter what type a font is once it is embedded in PDF, as long
as it is embedded correctly (good ole' PostScript Type 1 fonts can be just
fine, and mighty be encountered even if an OpenType fonts was used for
authoring; actually, in many cases OpenType fonts will actually be embedded
as trueType or PostScript Type 1 fonts, without any loss of functionality or
quality)

[3] Fonts in EPUB
- EPUB is a very muddy area when it comes to devices and programs that
present them, and how they use fonts
- many EPUB readers use their own built-in fonts anyway
- where EPUB readers do actually use embedded fonts, OpenType and TrueType
are your best bets

[4] Fonts used during authoring
- Microsoft doesn't support PostScript flavoured OpenType fonts as well as
it does support TrueType flavoured OpenType fonts
- Adobe and Apple can handle any font type equally well
- with maximum cross platform in mind (e.g. for office applications) use
TrueType flavoured OpenType or TrueType (almost always the filename suffix
will be .TTF)
- the difference between TrueType flavoured OpenType and plain TrueType is
mostly in functionality (e.g. addressing special or alternate characters in
a font, advanced ligature like character combinations in foreign scripts,
…), but not in Unicode support

If we were to make a distinction regarding authoring between "user
communities":
- if you are in the office world, use TrueType flavored OpenType or TrueType
- if you are in the layout and graphic design world, use any OpenType or
TrueType font

Disclaimer: there are fonts that are good, and there are fonts that are not
so good - regardless what type they come in. Most fonts that come with
recent versions of operating systems or applications from Adobe, Apple, and
Microsoft are usually pretty good.

And by the way - old fonts are often available in today's operating systems
for backward compatibility.

Olaf

On 30 Apr 2014, at 04:38, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> There is one heck of a lot of misinformation in that online forum thread!
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2803119 No one seemed to know the
> details about fonts.
>
> Summary for the WebAim original poster:
>
> 1) Use only OpenType fonts on Macs and Windows.
>
> 2) Stop using TrueType and PostScript fonts, both are deprecated font
> technologies since 2000. They lack extended character sets which
> contain many characters that will help accessibility. Plus, they lack
> some key technical requirements for today's publishing technologies, such
as EPUBs.
> FYI, OpenType fonts can have up to 64,000 characters and are based on
> a standardized, universal Unicode character set. That means better
> accessibility now, and definitely in the future. Hopefully it will
> minimize all those strange characters AT users run into in documents.
>
> 3) On the Mac, don't use dFonts as they too present problems in EPUBs
> and accessible technologies.
>
> 4) Always always always embed your fonts into the PDF. Did I mention
always?
>
> 5) OpenType fonts come in 2 flavors: TrueType and PostScript. For
> practical purposes, this means absolutely nothing. As long as the font
> is OpenType, it will be OK to use. The TrueType and PostScript flavors
> mostly just define the original source code of the font. Example,
> Microsoft's fonts were originally TrueType so their OpenType versions are
OpenType/TrueType.
> Adobe's font were originally PostScript so their OpenType versions are
> OpenType/PostScript. As I said before, this doesn't affect
> accessibility or making PDFs. In fact, I haven't seen it affect
> anything whatsoever except for producing a lot of hogwash on Internet
> forums. So use OpenType, regardless of the flavor.
>
> 6) TrueType fonts have the file extension dot TTF. OpenType fonts can
> have either dot OTF or dot TTF. Therefore, you can't always tell if
> you're using an OpenType font or not. Sighted users can see a
> blue-green O icon next to the font name for all OpenType fonts, both
> TrueType flavored and PostScript flavored. A blue TT icon appears next to
TrueType fonts.
>
> 7) Recent operating systems from both Apple and Windows ship with
> industry-standard OpenType fonts. Windows also includes a handful of
> old TrueType fonts, and Apple ships with a handful of dFonts, neither
> of which should be used to make accessible documents or EPUBs. I do
> not have a good reason why these 2 companies still ship their
> operating systems with out-of-date fonts.
>
> 8) The Calibri font mentioned in the forum is part of Microsoft's
> Cleartype font collection that were developed specifically for better
> legibility and readability on computer screens. They are installed
> with MS Windows and Office, so they're fairly well distributed on
> Windows systems. And they are in OpenType format.
>
> That was probably more than you ever intended to know about fonts!
> Being a former typesetter many decades ago, I couldn't give just a
> quick explanation.
>
> -Bevi Chagnon
> - PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, and Developers.
> - Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> - 508 Workshop: www.workshop.pubcom.com
> - US Federal Training: www.gpo.gov/customers/theinstitute.htm
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff
> Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 5:12 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PowerPoint accessibility-alt question
>
>> On the subject of Mac OS conversion of Word/PowerPoint files to PDFs,
> we've noticed another problem that is related (I think) to the unicode
> font issue - i.e., the PDF rendering wants to use unicode font and if
> it can't find a font set that matches the one in the original
> document, it substitutes different symbol and letter combinations for
> some characters in the resultant PDF. This can make some words
> unintelligible if you're listening to the PDF with a screen reader.
>> In our experience, it seems to happen most frequently with PDFs that
>> are
> created on a Mac. We would love to give instructors and faculty
> members some simple instructions on how to avoid this problem - does
> anyone has any guidance on which fonts to use and which to avoid when
> creating MS Office documents on a Mac?
>
> The issue is: fonts must be embedded when the file is created. This
> applies for files created on any platform.
>
> For the Mac, this thread provides some tips to addressing the issue:
>
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2803119
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Duff.