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Thread: Disappearing PDF content

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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Iaffaldano, Michelangelo
Date: Mon, Jul 28 2014 1:10PM
Subject: Disappearing PDF content
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Recently I have had to use Acrobat to make a PDF newsletter more accessible. The document had been created in Microsoft Publisher and its reading order was especially bad. One problem I encountered is that sometimes, when moving a tag to its appropriate place in the reading order pane - for example, placing a heading above the pertinent paragraph - the corresponding text would become invisible in the document viewer. Has anyone encountered this and is there a way to avoid it?

Michelangelo

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Mon, Jul 28 2014 3:26PM
Subject: Re: Disappearing PDF content
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Yes. Some people fix it by playing with the reading order. Personally, i go
to the content pane, find the text that disappeared. There is usually an
image/figure or artifact tag above or below it. swapping these usually
fixes it. More complex layouts may need similar tweaking.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Iaffaldano, Michelangelo <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Recently I have had to use Acrobat to make a PDF newsletter more
> accessible. The document had been created in Microsoft Publisher and its
> reading order was especially bad. One problem I encountered is that
> sometimes, when moving a tag to its appropriate place in the reading order
> pane - for example, placing a heading above the pertinent paragraph - the
> corresponding text would become invisible in the document viewer. Has
> anyone encountered this and is there a way to avoid it?
>
> Michelangelo
>
> > > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Jul 28 2014 3:41PM
Subject: Re: Disappearing PDF content
← Previous message | Next message →

And the best solution is to not have that problem at all!

If the original source document from Publisher, Word, or InDesign is
constructed correctly, the PDF that's exported from the source file won't
have this problem.

Our firm and several others on this list have classes to teach writers,
editors, and graphic designers how to do this.

-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www.Pubcom.com/classes

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 5:26 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Disappearing PDF content

Yes. Some people fix it by playing with the reading order. Personally, i go
to the content pane, find the text that disappeared. There is usually an
image/figure or artifact tag above or below it. swapping these usually fixes
it. More complex layouts may need similar tweaking.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Iaffaldano, Michelangelo <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Recently I have had to use Acrobat to make a PDF newsletter more
> accessible. The document had been created in Microsoft Publisher and
> its reading order was especially bad. One problem I encountered is
> that sometimes, when moving a tag to its appropriate place in the
> reading order pane - for example, placing a heading above the
> pertinent paragraph - the corresponding text would become invisible in
> the document viewer. Has anyone encountered this and is there a way to
avoid it?
>
> Michelangelo
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Mon, Jul 28 2014 4:05PM
Subject: Re: Disappearing PDF content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Michelangelo,

We professionals call this the “z-order problem”, but it’s known to most users as “<howl of pain> I hate fixing this! !@#%^^&* Acrobat!?!? </howl of pain>"

You asked “is there a way to avoid it” - there are a couple of key mitigation strategies.

You said that you are using Acrobat to tag, so this is remedial. Bevi’s absolutely right - ideally this should be done when the file is authored.. but that’s not your case, it seems.

With Acrobat as presently designed, the only way to conclusively avoid the problem you are encountering is to be sure that you only select the items you want selected prior to setting a tag. This isn’t always easy. In particular, this usually means avoiding any paths and images when you are trying to select text, and conversely, avoiding all unassociated objects when you attempt to select a bunch of paths and text that you might want to tag as a single <Figure> (for example, a diagram).

What’s going on is that Acrobat just assumes that you want to tag all the objects you’ve got selected - whatever they are. It’s not smart enough to say (if applications could talk): “Hey, my user selected a big block of text that looks like a paragraph, and he going for a <P> tag. I should probably ignore the fact that he also selected a large image when he zoned that paragraph, at least by default."

The current-generation “brains” aren’t super-awesome at the big-picture questions like that.

Pay careful attention to the items you are selecting. You can use shift-click to add content to your current selection, or option-click (on a Mac) to zone content for removal from the selection. Note the cursor changes to indicate the current mode. These are important tools for this purpose. They aren’t perfectly implemented… and PDF files can be very hairy as you now know, but they really help.

Also, be sure to save your work at frequent intervals - and hopefully, right before you make a move that screws up the content’s z-order. You can’t really undo from content-reordering very frequently, the content ordering is screwed up in several places, or putting it back into the right order is daunting (for example, with lots of objects on the page).

It’s much easier and safer to dump your current file and go back to a PDF from just before you made the move which screwed up your z-order. V

Save yourself the suffering, and dump that file!, revert to your last save! In practice, when I’ve do this hand-work I’m saving the file every 10 minutes or so.

Go in peace with your file, my brother.

Duff.


On Jul 28, 2014, at 3:10 PM, Iaffaldano, Michelangelo < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Recently I have had to use Acrobat to make a PDF newsletter more accessible. The document had been created in Microsoft Publisher and its reading order was especially bad. One problem I encountered is that sometimes, when moving a tag to its appropriate place in the reading order pane - for example, placing a heading above the pertinent paragraph - the corresponding text would become invisible in the document viewer. Has anyone encountered this and is there a way to avoid it?
>
> Michelangelo
>
> > >

From: Thompson, Rachel
Date: Tue, Jul 29 2014 7:43AM
Subject: Re: Disappearing PDF content
← Previous message | Next message →

Could someone point me to a good source on ways to avoid this in the
initial document creation, as mentioned by both Bevi and Duff?

Rachel

Dr. Rachel S. Thompson
Director, Emerging Technology and Accessibility
Center for Instructional Technology
University of Alabama
http://accessibility.ua.edu







On 07/28/14, 4:41 PM, "Chagnon | PubCom" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

And the best solution is to not have that problem at all!

If the original source document from Publisher, Word, or InDesign is
constructed correctly, the PDF that's exported from the source file won't
have this problem.

Our firm and several others on this list have classes to teach writers,
editors, and graphic designers how to do this.

-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www.Pubcom.com/classes

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 5:26 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Disappearing PDF content

Yes. Some people fix it by playing with the reading order. Personally, i go
to the content pane, find the text that disappeared. There is usually an
image/figure or artifact tag above or below it. swapping these usually
fixes
it. More complex layouts may need similar tweaking.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Iaffaldano, Michelangelo <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Recently I have had to use Acrobat to make a PDF newsletter more
> accessible. The document had been created in Microsoft Publisher and
> its reading order was especially bad. One problem I encountered is
> that sometimes, when moving a tag to its appropriate place in the
> reading order pane - for example, placing a heading above the
> pertinent paragraph - the corresponding text would become invisible in
> the document viewer. Has anyone encountered this and is there a way to
avoid it?
>
> Michelangelo
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Tue, Jul 29 2014 9:40AM
Subject: Re: Disappearing PDF content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Rachel,

> Could someone point me to a good source on ways to avoid this in the
> initial document creation, as mentioned by both Bevi and Duff?

Bevi’s the expert on document authoring...

I can tell you this much…

1) Put graphics you don’t want tagged into the page’s “background” to the extent possible. For example, in PowerPoint, put images that should be artifacts into a page template.

2) Try to use software that creates Tagged PDF directly rather than forcing yourself to add tags following creation. This is especially effective if you take care of point (1), above.

3) Avoid overlapping objects (i.e., text overlapping images or paths).

4) Avoid using masks (one thing on top of another to create a specific visual effect)

There are doubtless other tips, but these are good general-purpose points that tend to minimize scope for z-order errors.

Duff.

From: John E Brandt
Date: Tue, Jul 29 2014 11:03AM
Subject: Re: Disappearing PDF content
← Previous message | Next message →

The issue is with Microsoft Publisher which does a terrible job when you
convert a file to PDF except for simply printing it out.

One should only use Publisher for documents that are intended for print
only. And you should not be composing to Publisher, but rather starting with
a word processor and then importing the content in Publisher when you are
ready to go to print. This way you will still have the original document
(which presumably is fully accessible) in a format with logical order that
can be more readily converted to an accessible PDF.

~j


John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design,
development and consultation
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

@jebswebs

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Iaffaldano,
Michelangelo
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 3:11 PM
To: ' = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = '
Subject: [WebAIM] Disappearing PDF content

Recently I have had to use Acrobat to make a PDF newsletter more accessible.
The document had been created in Microsoft Publisher and its reading order
was especially bad. One problem I encountered is that sometimes, when moving
a tag to its appropriate place in the reading order pane - for example,
placing a heading above the pertinent paragraph - the corresponding text
would become invisible in the document viewer. Has anyone encountered this
and is there a way to avoid it?

Michelangelo

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2014 9:16PM
Subject: Re: Disappearing PDF content
← Previous message | No next message

The only ways I know how to avoid it in Office products is to know where
what causes it. If you insert a picture, or chart there is a rounded border
around the thing you just inserted, sometimes the rounded borders is a few
pixels or more wider than this. When you convert it to a PDF, the engine
sees two objects, the image/chart/etc, and the background to the
placeholder (rounded border). So shrinking the border to be the same width
as the object minimizes the need to be so careful when selecting as Duff
mentioned.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Thompson, Rachel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Could someone point me to a good source on ways to avoid this in the
> initial document creation, as mentioned by both Bevi and Duff?
>
> Rachel
>
> Dr. Rachel S. Thompson
> Director, Emerging Technology and Accessibility
> Center for Instructional Technology
> University of Alabama
> http://accessibility.ua.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 07/28/14, 4:41 PM, "Chagnon | PubCom" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> And the best solution is to not have that problem at all!
>
> If the original source document from Publisher, Word, or InDesign is
> constructed correctly, the PDF that's exported from the source file won't
> have this problem.
>
> Our firm and several others on this list have classes to teach writers,
> editors, and graphic designers how to do this.
>
> -Bevi Chagnon
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
> Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www.Pubcom.com/classes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 5:26 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Disappearing PDF content
>
> Yes. Some people fix it by playing with the reading order. Personally, i go
> to the content pane, find the text that disappeared. There is usually an
> image/figure or artifact tag above or below it. swapping these usually
> fixes
> it. More complex layouts may need similar tweaking.
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Iaffaldano, Michelangelo <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Recently I have had to use Acrobat to make a PDF newsletter more
> > accessible. The document had been created in Microsoft Publisher and
> > its reading order was especially bad. One problem I encountered is
> > that sometimes, when moving a tag to its appropriate place in the
> > reading order pane - for example, placing a heading above the
> > pertinent paragraph - the corresponding text would become invisible in
> > the document viewer. Has anyone encountered this and is there a way to
> avoid it?
> >
> > Michelangelo
> >
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > >
> > > >