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Thread: arai-describedby and aria-hidden

Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)

From: Ricardo Sánchez
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 6:09AM
Subject: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
No previous message | Next message →

Hello all:

I would like to know your opinion on a combination of the aria-describedby
labels and aria-hidden that I am using. My idea is to prevent users of
screen readers listen redundant content. I've tested with JAWS 15 and NVAD
2014 in IE 8, IE 11, Chrome 40 and Firefox Safari 3.6.23y with Voiceover on
iOS in August. I have not encountered any problems. Am I missing something?
Would there be any scenario in which this code could be problematic?

The code is:

<label for = "nif"> NIF </ label>
<input type = "text" id = "nif" aria-describedby = "formatonif" />
<p id = "formatonif" aria-hidden = "true"> Do not leave space between
letters and numbers </ p>

Thanks in advance.

Warm regards.
Ricardo Sanchez

From: Ricardo Sánchez
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 8:41AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Sorry. I correct some errors in my previous message.

Hello all:

I would like to know your opinion on a combination of aria-describedby
property
and aria-hidden state that I am using. My idea is to prevent users of
screen readers listen redundant content. I've tested with JAWS 15 and NVAD
2014 in IE 8, IE 11, Chrome 40 and Firefox Safari 3.6.23y with Voiceover on
iOS 8. I have not encountered any problems. Am I missing something?
Would there be any scenario in which this code could be problematic?

The code is:

<label for = "nif"> NIF </ label>
<input type = "text" id = "nif" aria-describedby = "formatonif" />
<p id = "formatonif" aria-hidden = "true"> Do not leave space between
letters and numbers </ p>

Thanks in advance.

Warm regards.
Ricardo Sanchez

From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 8:54AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Ricardo,

I am assuming you are just wanting to give screen readers information which is hidden from everyone else. Why do you think you are missing something?

Susie Stanzel

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ricardo Sánchez
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden

Sorry. I correct some errors in my previous message.

Hello all:

I would like to know your opinion on a combination of aria-describedby property and aria-hidden state that I am using. My idea is to prevent users of screen readers listen redundant content. I've tested with JAWS 15 and NVAD
2014 in IE 8, IE 11, Chrome 40 and Firefox Safari 3.6.23y with Voiceover on iOS 8. I have not encountered any problems. Am I missing something?
Would there be any scenario in which this code could be problematic?

The code is:

<label for = "nif"> NIF </ label>
<input type = "text" id = "nif" aria-describedby = "formatonif" /> <p id = "formatonif" aria-hidden = "true"> Do not leave space between letters and numbers </ p>

Thanks in advance.

Warm regards.
Ricardo Sanchez

This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the email immediately.

From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 8:54AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
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From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 9:06AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
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I think the intention is to reduce the repetition of content when the
screen reader is reading through the page. Labels for form controls
will be read twice - once as the label for the control and again when
the screen reader reads the label text.

So long as the label reliably reads in all screen readers, I think
this is probably fine. But I don't think it's necessary. This
repetition is standard, so hiding the label with aria-hidden would be
atypical. Additionally, the repetition is generally not present when
accessing the form because the user will typically be navigating
through the form using the Tab key rather than reading the form from
top to bottom.

I suspect it could also cause some issues if the user were to search
for text on the page. The browser would direct them to the text (not
the labelled control), but the text would be hidden and unread. Yes, a
bit of a stretch, but something to consider whenever you use
aria-hidden on visible content.

Jared

From: Ricardo Sánchez
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 9:22AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you for your response, Susie.

I think I have not explained well. The idea is that when a screen reader
focuses on the field with aria-describedby, it will announce the paragraph
linked content. The paragraph content on the page remains visible to other
users but not again be read by screen reader. In the tests I've done has
worked well, but I wonder if there are some circumstances in which this
programming can be problematic.

Warm regards.
Ricardo Sánchez

-----Mensaje original-----
From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 4:54 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden

Ricardo,

I am assuming you are just wanting to give screen readers information which
is hidden from everyone else. Why do you think you are missing something?

Susie Stanzel

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ricardo Sánchez
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden

Sorry. I correct some errors in my previous message.

Hello all:

I would like to know your opinion on a combination of aria-describedby
property and aria-hidden state that I am using. My idea is to prevent users
of screen readers listen redundant content. I've tested with JAWS 15 and
NVAD
2014 in IE 8, IE 11, Chrome 40 and Firefox Safari 3.6.23y with Voiceover on
iOS 8. I have not encountered any problems. Am I missing something?
Would there be any scenario in which this code could be problematic?

The code is:

<label for = "nif"> NIF </ label>
<input type = "text" id = "nif" aria-describedby = "formatonif" /> <p id =
"formatonif" aria-hidden = "true"> Do not leave space between letters and
numbers </ p>

Thanks in advance.

Warm regards.
Ricardo Sanchez

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely
for the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message
or the use or disclosure of the information it contains may violate the law
and subject the violator to civil or criminal penalties. If you believe you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete the
email immediately.

From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 9:22AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Jared --
Your assertions are correct. We had some Oracle developers trying to do the same thing and there were issues regarding searches. I usually don't do searches as I believe that using the AT package correctly should work, however, what they wanted me to go to was not visible using normal ARIA tricks so I did a search and low and behold, nothing. Now there were probably other issues as well, but I think in this case the use of ARIAHidden is a bit risky.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jared Smith [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2015 9:06 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden

I think the intention is to reduce the repetition of content when the screen reader is reading through the page. Labels for form controls will be read twice - once as the label for the control and again when the screen reader reads the label text.

So long as the label reliably reads in all screen readers, I think this is probably fine. But I don't think it's necessary. This repetition is standard, so hiding the label with aria-hidden would be atypical. Additionally, the repetition is generally not present when accessing the form because the user will typically be navigating through the form using the Tab key rather than reading the form from top to bottom.

I suspect it could also cause some issues if the user were to search for text on the page. The browser would direct them to the text (not the labelled control), but the text would be hidden and unread. Yes, a bit of a stretch, but something to consider whenever you use aria-hidden on visible content.

Jared

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 9:29AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

> I am assuming you are just wanting to give screen readers information
which
> is hidden from everyone else. Why do you think you are missing something?

The reverse would be true in Ricardo's example. The hint would be spoken by
screen readers as they focused on the field, but not as they navigated
through the page outside of the field. The hint would remain visible outside
of the field to everyone else.

I don't believe it's a good technique however. The only way to hear the hint
is by focusing on the field, and then you have to listen to the whole hint
in one go. With aria-hidden set on the hint, it's impossible to explore the
text by word or character using a screen reader.

As speech recognition tools improve ARIA support, I believe this technique
could also prevent a speech user from selecting the hint text. It's possibly
an edge case because it's rare someone would need to cut/paste the hint for
a form field, but worth considering.

Léonie.

--
@LeonieWatson Tink.UK Carpe diem

From: Ricardo Sánchez
Date: Wed, Feb 04 2015 11:37AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Susie, Jared, Don, Léonie,

Thank you very much for your contributions. Clearly it is not good practice.

Best regards.
Ricardo Sanchez

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Feb 05 2015 6:00AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Well said folks, I agree that this is certainly doable, but not
necessarily a bet practice.
For this particular example it would be ok, but what if the hint said,
say "in case you are unable to log on, call our customer service at 1
800 444 5969, ext. 19827 098 9663888 799 0) (.. for those who have
seen the I.T. Crowd, you probably get the reference).
In other words, if the hint text contains something that the user
needs to memorize or explore, they need to be able to traverse the
hint character by character, copy and paste etc.
Still, I like the thought behind what you did, it is a creative use of
the fact that aria-describedby overrides hidden settings.
You never know when ideas come in handy, so thanks for posting this one.
-B
P.s. Jaws will not read targets of aria-describedby when the verbosity
setting is set to "intermediate" or "advanced", so Jaws users would be
completely unable to see this text in any mode, if they have their
verbosity set that way.

On 2/4/15, Ricardo Sánchez < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Susie, Jared, Don, Léonie,
>
> Thank you very much for your contributions. Clearly it is not good
> practice.
>
> Best regards.
> Ricardo Sanchez
>
>
> > > >

--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Ricardo Sánchez
Date: Thu, Feb 05 2015 7:50AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, Bikir, for his contribution, further clarifies the problems that
this use might suppose.

Best regards.
Ricardo Sánchez

-----Mensaje original-----
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 2:00 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden

Well said folks, I agree that this is certainly doable, but not
necessarily a bet practice.
For this particular example it would be ok, but what if the hint said,
say "in case you are unable to log on, call our customer service at 1
800 444 5969, ext. 19827 098 9663888 799 0) (.. for those who have
seen the I.T. Crowd, you probably get the reference).
In other words, if the hint text contains something that the user
needs to memorize or explore, they need to be able to traverse the
hint character by character, copy and paste etc.
Still, I like the thought behind what you did, it is a creative use of
the fact that aria-describedby overrides hidden settings.
You never know when ideas come in handy, so thanks for posting this one.
-B
P.s. Jaws will not read targets of aria-describedby when the verbosity
setting is set to "intermediate" or "advanced", so Jaws users would be
completely unable to see this text in any mode, if they have their
verbosity set that way.

From: Lynn Holdsworth
Date: Thu, Feb 05 2015 9:38AM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Ricardo, it's great that you're aware of how annoying and
time-consuming repetition can be, and that you're using ARIA to solve
real-world problems. I think that ARIA is the best thing that's
happened to accessibility in a very long while.

I'd agree with what the others have said - but keep coming up with
ideas like this and running them past us. I've learned a few things
just by reading this thread, and perhaps others have too.

Best, Lynn

On 05/02/2015, Ricardo SÃ¡nchez < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks, Bikir, for his contribution, further clarifies the problems that
> this use might suppose.
>
> Best regards.
> Ricardo SÃ¡nchez
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 2:00 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden
>
> Well said folks, I agree that this is certainly doable, but not
> necessarily a bet practice.
> For this particular example it would be ok, but what if the hint said,
> say "in case you are unable to log on, call our customer service at 1
> 800 444 5969, ext. 19827 098 9663888 799 0) (.. for those who have
> seen the I.T. Crowd, you probably get the reference).
> In other words, if the hint text contains something that the user
> needs to memorize or explore, they need to be able to traverse the
> hint character by character, copy and paste etc.
> Still, I like the thought behind what you did, it is a creative use of
> the fact that aria-describedby overrides hidden settings.
> You never know when ideas come in handy, so thanks for posting this one.
> -B
> P.s. Jaws will not read targets of aria-describedby when the verbosity
> setting is set to "intermediate" or "advanced", so Jaws users would be
> completely unable to see this text in any mode, if they have their
> verbosity set that way.
>
>
> > > >

From: Ricardo Sánchez
Date: Thu, Feb 05 2015 12:56PM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi, Lynn,

I also think that Aria is a breakthrough in accessibility and think we
should explore the possibilities offered to enhance the user experience. I
appreciate and learn from the contributions in this list, so we can consult
our ideas before creating a page that creates problems for users.

Best regards.
Ricardo SÃ¡nchez

-----Mensaje original-----
From: Lynn Holdsworth
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 5:38 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden

Ricardo, it's great that you're aware of how annoying and
time-consuming repetition can be, and that you're using ARIA to solve
real-world problems. I think that ARIA is the best thing that's
happened to accessibility in a very long while.

I'd agree with what the others have said - but keep coming up with
ideas like this and running them past us. I've learned a few things
just by reading this thread, and perhaps others have too.

Best, Lynn

On 05/02/2015, Ricardo SÃ¡nchez < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thanks, Bikir, for his contribution, further clarifies the problems that
> this use might suppose.
>
> Best regards.
> Ricardo SÃ¡nchez
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 2:00 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden
>
> Well said folks, I agree that this is certainly doable, but not
> necessarily a bet practice.
> For this particular example it would be ok, but what if the hint said,
> say "in case you are unable to log on, call our customer service at 1
> 800 444 5969, ext. 19827 098 9663888 799 0) (.. for those who have
> seen the I.T. Crowd, you probably get the reference).
> In other words, if the hint text contains something that the user
> needs to memorize or explore, they need to be able to traverse the
> hint character by character, copy and paste etc.
> Still, I like the thought behind what you did, it is a creative use of
> the fact that aria-describedby overrides hidden settings.
> You never know when ideas come in handy, so thanks for posting this one.
> -B
> P.s. Jaws will not read targets of aria-describedby when the verbosity
> setting is set to "intermediate" or "advanced", so Jaws users would be
> completely unable to see this text in any mode, if they have their
> verbosity set that way.
>
>
> > > >

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Feb 05 2015 3:07PM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | Next message →

burker i think the fire sinaryo is perfict and moss is my faverit caractor

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Well said folks, I agree that this is certainly doable, but not
> necessarily a bet practice.
> For this particular example it would be ok, but what if the hint said,
> say "in case you are unable to log on, call our customer service at 1
> 800 444 5969, ext. 19827 098 9663888 799 0) (.. for those who have
> seen the I.T. Crowd, you probably get the reference).
> In other words, if the hint text contains something that the user
> needs to memorize or explore, they need to be able to traverse the
> hint character by character, copy and paste etc.
> Still, I like the thought behind what you did, it is a creative use of
> the fact that aria-describedby overrides hidden settings.
> You never know when ideas come in handy, so thanks for posting this one.
> -B
> P.s. Jaws will not read targets of aria-describedby when the verbosity
> setting is set to "intermediate" or "advanced", so Jaws users would be
> completely unable to see this text in any mode, if they have their
> verbosity set that way.
>
>
> On 2/4/15, Ricardo Sánchez < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Susie, Jared, Don, Léonie,
> >
> > Thank you very much for your contributions. Clearly it is not good
> > practice.
> >
> > Best regards.
> > Ricardo Sanchez
> >
> >
> > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > >

--
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Ricardo Sánchez
Date: Thu, Feb 05 2015 11:35PM
Subject: Re: arai-describedby and aria-hidden
← Previous message | No next message

Hi, Lucy:

As you may have noticed, my English is very limited. So, I have not been
able to understand the content of your comment. Could you make an accessible
version for people unfamiliar with your language? [smile]

Thanks in advance and best regards.
Ricardo Sánchez

-----Mensaje original-----
From: Lucy Greco
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2015 11:07 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] arai-describedby and aria-hidden

burker i think the fire sinaryo is perfict and moss is my faverit caractor

On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 5:00 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Well said folks, I agree that this is certainly doable, but not
> necessarily a bet practice.
> For this particular example it would be ok, but what if the hint said,
> say "in case you are unable to log on, call our customer service at 1
> 800 444 5969, ext. 19827 098 9663888 799 0) (.. for those who have
> seen the I.T. Crowd, you probably get the reference).
> In other words, if the hint text contains something that the user
> needs to memorize or explore, they need to be able to traverse the
> hint character by character, copy and paste etc.
> Still, I like the thought behind what you did, it is a creative use of
> the fact that aria-describedby overrides hidden settings.
> You never know when ideas come in handy, so thanks for posting this one.
> -B
> P.s. Jaws will not read targets of aria-describedby when the verbosity
> setting is set to "intermediate" or "advanced", so Jaws users would be
> completely unable to see this text in any mode, if they have their
> verbosity set that way.
>
>
> On 2/4/15, Ricardo Sánchez < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Susie, Jared, Don, Léonie,
> >
> > Thank you very much for your contributions. Clearly it is not good
> > practice.
> >
> > Best regards.
> > Ricardo Sanchez
> >
> >
> > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > >

--
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces