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Thread: Web Accessibility For Notetakers

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Number of posts in this thread: 25 (In chronological order)

From: Ella Yu
Date: Tue, Nov 10 2015 6:28PM
Subject: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
No previous message | Next message →

Hi all,
I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it
is possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google
services (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more
accessible for people who have old browsers and are unable to
upgrade. I think these sites could be simplified and have the
same essential features. What do you think?

From: rjaquiss
Date: Wed, Nov 11 2015 12:04AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello:

Sites could make their pages simpler, but designers are trying to make their sites visually appealing and to do so use graphics and fancy formatting. As for the blindness community, we find ourselves in a never ending race to keep up with the latest trends.

Regards,

Robert


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ella Yu
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:28 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Hi all,
I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you think?

From: Ella Yu
Date: Wed, Nov 11 2015 7:11AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you for your insights.

----- Original Message -----
From: "rjaquiss" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date sent: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:04:14 -0800
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Hello:

Sites could make their pages simpler, but designers are
trying to make their sites visually appealing and to do so use
graphics and fancy formatting. As for the blindness community, we
find ourselves in a never ending race to keep up with the latest
trends.

Regards,

Robert


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
On Behalf Of Ella Yu
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:28 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Hi all,
I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it
is possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google
services (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more
accessible for people who have old browsers and are unable to
upgrade. I think these sites could be simplified and have the
same essential features. What do you think?
archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Simon Evans
Date: Wed, Nov 18 2015 10:19AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Ella,

WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so
brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused
devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to
later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
a geological lifespan for earlier models.

Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate
against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and
awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.

I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of people.



Simon




On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is
> possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services
> (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people
> who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites
> could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you
> think?

From: Ella Yu
Date: Wed, Nov 18 2015 10:36AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you for your insights, Simon.

----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Hi Ella,

WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts
definitely
gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018
too, so
brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused
devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a
move to
later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will
often mean
a geological lifespan for earlier models.

Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6
support'
on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of
hate
against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an
instant and
awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.

I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some
influential
bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands
of people.



Simon




On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
Hi all,
I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it
is
possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google
services
(play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for
people
who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these
sites
could be simplified and have the same essential features. What
do you
think?

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Nov 18 2015 11:33AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no
reason to make these more simplified. what you reely should be asking
for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices lie a
braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never meant
to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when blind
people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more technology
my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save your
money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile phone to do
your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by things on
the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary upset when
students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my braille note.
when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write tech to
do so.
in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to be sure
the device we are bringing meets the base line for security and
access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is useing a
device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or other
personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used against
them

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thank you for your insights, Simon.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> Hi Ella,
>
> WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
> gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so
> brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused
> devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to
> later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
> a geological lifespan for earlier models.
>
> Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
> on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate
> against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
> Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
> desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and
> awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
>
> I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
> bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
> 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
> people.
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is
> possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services
> (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people
> who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites
> could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you
> think?
>
> > > > > > > > >



--
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Harrison, Rita L
Date: Wed, Nov 18 2015 2:49PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Good Afternoon List,

After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may not be familiar with Notetaking Devices.

First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites simpler, if they are coded correctly. Individuals using Assistive Technology (AT), should be able to navigate without a problem, provided there is proper structure and all elements are labeled.

Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing the web. Having and using a braille display is an important piece in braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to read and write with ease, as those who have vision read and write print.

I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker and find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend meetings, when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking notes on the fly.

Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a Braille Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who manufacture and sell these devices, to use a more current browser, so everyone using these wonderful devices, are able to access the information they need when they need it, because the cost of these devices is high and we should expect to be able to access information online using a current browser.

I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.

I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!

Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
Lead, 508 Web Task Force
Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED)
OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
Web Support Team (WST)
Phone: 805-620-0203
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no
reason to make these more simplified. what you really should be asking
for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices lie a
braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never meant
to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when blind
people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more technology
my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save your
money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile phone to do
your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by things on
the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary upset when
students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my braille note.
when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write tech to
do so.
in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to be sure
the device we are bringing meets the base line for security and
access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is useing a
device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or other
personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used against
them

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thank you for your insights, Simon.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> Hi Ella,
>
> WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
> gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so
> brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused
> devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to
> later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
> a geological lifespan for earlier models.
>
> Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
> on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate
> against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
> Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
> desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and
> awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
>
> I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
> bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
> 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
> people.
>
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is
> possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services
> (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people
> who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites
> could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you
> think?
>
> > > > > > > > >



--
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Ella Yu
Date: Wed, Nov 18 2015 10:38PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat
simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just
ever so slightly too complicated.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harrison, Rita L" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:49:22 +0000
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Good Afternoon List,

After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my
observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may
not be familiar with Notetaking Devices.

First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites
simpler, if they are coded correctly. Individuals using
Assistive Technology (AT), should be able to navigate without a
problem, provided there is proper structure and all elements are
labeled.

Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing
the web. Having and using a braille display is an important
piece in braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to
read and write with ease, as those who have vision read and write
print.

I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker
and find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend
meetings, when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking
notes on the fly.

Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a
Braille Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who
manufacture and sell these devices, to use a more current
browser, so everyone using these wonderful devices, are able to
access the information they need when they need it, because the
cost of these devices is high and we should expect to be able to
access information online using a current browser.

I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I
thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.

I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!

Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
Lead, 508 Web Task Force
Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities
(ACED)
OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
Web Support Team (WST)
Phone: 805-620-0203
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there
is no
reason to make these more simplified. what you really should
be asking
for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices
lie a
braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were
never meant
to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when
blind
people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more
technology
my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save
your
money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile
phone to do
your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by
things on
the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary
upset when
students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my
braille note.
when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write
tech to
do so.
in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to
be sure
the device we are bringing meets the base line for
security and
access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is
useing a
device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or
other
personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used
against
them

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

Thank you for your insights, Simon.


----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Hi Ella,

WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts
definitely
gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018
too, so
brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment
focused
devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a
move to
later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will
often mean
a geological lifespan for earlier models.

Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6
support'
on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of
hate
against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an
instant and
awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.

I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some
influential
bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an
interesting,
'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects
thousands of
people.



Simon




On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
Hi all,
I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it
is
possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google
services
(play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for
people
who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these
sites
could be simplified and have the same essential features. What
do you
think?

--
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 12:10AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

"Ever so slightly too complicated"?

Ella, in many cases that's an extreme understatement. Whenever I have given a presentation, I have found myself showing one example of an interface that is too complicated for everyone. (It's never the same example. Often, I find an example that is actually easier to figure out if you rely on a screen reader but can't see the screen.)

Many who read your message will infer that you mean these sites should regress to a plain format. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that. What you mean is that the available features should be easy for everyone to discover and use—or, in the parlance of WCAG 2.0, "perceive" and "operate."

There are two solutions to that problem that we haven't pursued enough:

1. Site owners, content managers, designers, and developers should conduct more usability testing of their designs, and they should include people with disabilities among the participants. Those who do will make it easier for all people to use the Web.

2. The accessibility community should build and maintain an application any Web professional can use to discover known techniques for producing usable and accessible interactions in the presentation technology they are using. The same application would allow developers to submit new techniques they have used to solve a previously unsolved problem or to improve upon an existing solution. Each technique submitted should be specific; include appropriate examples of its implementation; be tagged according to the interface or interaction (form, text input, error checking, labels for fieldsets, navigation menus, and so on), the presentation technology (HTML, PDF, XHTML, Word for Windows, Open Office, Drupal, WordPress, Plone, Bootstrap.js, and so on), the presentation environments in which it works (video, audio, wearables, smart phones, large monitors, haptic interfaces, and others), the disability addressed, the relevant WCAG success criteria, and other relevant features if I've missed any; and be linked to closely related solutions, relevant tutorials, explanations of the underlying principles, and the like.

This application would make it easier for all authors, content managers, designers, and developers to build a highly usable and accessible Web. It would also help us win over people who fear that it's difficult, expensive, or time consuming to build accessible, usable interactions—because instead of having to stop everything to take a tutorial or figure out a checklist and its results, they could get a quick solution to their specific problem in their first experience with making their product accessible. (If there is no solution, or at least no ideal solution, they could find that out quickly and revise their plans accordingly. Maybe that means they would give this phase of their project more time. Maybe it means they would scrap the original approach and use another instead.)

If the W3C won't coordinate the building of this application and then host it, the IAAP should. Rob Sinclair, the first president of the IAAP, lamented in an interview that he had once had to let a group of developers know that the solution they had worked so hard to develop was a duplicate of a solution others had developed two years earlier. With this application in place, it would be highly unlikely for that circumstance to arise again.

Because even the most seasoned developer could quickly discover whether someone has finally figured out how to build a carrousel that will thrill users with its accessibility, usability, and relevance every bit as much as it thrills marketers and executives with whatever it is that thrills them about carrousels.

Best regards,

Cliff Tyllick
Accessibility curmudgeon on my own time.
In my day job, accessibility specialist for the Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services.

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just ever so slightly too complicated.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harrison, Rita L" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:49:22 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> Good Afternoon List,
>
> After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may not be familiar with Notetaking Devices.
>
> First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites simpler, if they are coded correctly. Individuals using Assistive Technology (AT), should be able to navigate without a problem, provided there is proper structure and all elements are labeled.
>
> Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing the web. Having and using a braille display is an important piece in braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to read and write with ease, as those who have vision read and write print.
>
> I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker and find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend meetings, when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking notes on the fly.
>
> Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a Braille Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who manufacture and sell these devices, to use a more current browser, so everyone using these wonderful devices, are able to access the information they need when they need it, because the cost of these devices is high and we should expect to be able to access information online using a current browser.
>
> I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.
>
> I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!
>
> Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
> Lead, 508 Web Task Force
> Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED)
> OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
> Web Support Team (WST)
> Phone: 805-620-0203
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no reason to make these more simplified. what you really should be asking for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices like a braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never meant to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when blind people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more technology my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save your money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile phone to do your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by things on the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary upset when students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my braille note. when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write tech to do so. in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to be sure the device we are bringing meets the base line for security and access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is using a device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or other personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used against them
>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Thank you for your insights, Simon.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> Hi Ella,
>
> WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
> gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
> a geological lifespan for earlier models.
>
> Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
> on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
> Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and
> awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
>
> I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
> bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
> 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
> people.
>
> Simon
>
> On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you think?
>

From: _mallory
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 4:57AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

IE6 wasn't only dropped because everyone hated it. There were very
strong security reasons for its drop as well.

I'm a rather strong proponent of "users should have choice in their
hardware/software" and do not believe everyone needs to be running
a bleeding-edge nightly just because some people can. I remember
when, after IE11 was released, my system had to block updates to IE
and stick to 9 because that's all ZoomText supported. I also knew
that that would not permanently be the case, but some web developers
looking only at numbers were dropping IE9. Looking at the numbers in
this case seemed a silly reason: these same developers were making
sure to support screen reader users, but there is a much larger group
of sighted low-vision users than screen reader users (or, seems to
be from various surveys and some data from WHO which isn't perfect by
any means).

On the other hand, when a vendor states "this product is no longer
being supported including no security updates" and stories hit the
mainstream news about leaks into Google via IE6 due to its terrible
security (due mostly to its age and not being updated), or when the
amount of code to support something quite old is nearly more than the
basic code you write for "all modern UAs", it's time to go ahead and
tell people that some stuff just isn't supported anymore.

Sorry, but I find GMail rather unworkable myself. It's almost as if
someone stroked their goatee and mused "how can we take the concept
of mail and complicate it beyond all belief?" So the original idea
of "maybe stuff needs to take a step back" is valid, but not to the
point of supporting software that's much too out of date and a
security hazard for all.

_mallory

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 10:33:45AM -0800, Lucy Greco wrote:
> blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no
> reason to make these more simplified. what you reely should be asking
> for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices lie a
> braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never meant
> to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when blind
> people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more technology
> my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save your
> money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile phone to do
> your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by things on
> the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary upset when
> students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my braille note.
> when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write tech to
> do so.
> in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to be sure
> the device we are bringing meets the base line for security and
> access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is useing a
> device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or other
> personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used against
> them
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Thank you for your insights, Simon.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
> >
> > Hi Ella,
> >
> > WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
> > gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so
> > brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused
> > devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to
> > later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
> > a geological lifespan for earlier models.
> >
> > Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
> > on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate
> > against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
> > Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
> > desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and
> > awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
> >
> > I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
> > bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
> > 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
> > people.
> >
> >
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is
> > possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services
> > (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people
> > who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites
> > could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you
> > think?
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> --
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > >

From: Simon Evans
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 7:14AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

On 11/19/2015 11:57 AM, _mallory wrote:
> On the other hand, when a vendor states "this product is no longer
> being supported including no security updates"

...WinCE 6.0 is in Extended Support until October 2018 - its patched regularly - the last Security Update for IE was in August (2015)

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/search.aspx?q=Windows+Embedded+CE+6.0+Monthly+Update


Simon

From: Simon Evans
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 7:33AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

On 11/19/2015 2:14 PM, Simon Evans wrote:
> the last Security Update for IE was in August (2015)

Actually there was one September too now I check...

Simon

From: Ella Yu
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 8:55AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Sorry=20for=20my=20mistakes.=20What=20I=20mean=20is=20some=20of=20the=20ele=
ments=20are=20a=20
little=20weird,=20but=20nothing=20terrifying.

=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----
From:=20Cliff=20Tyllick=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To:=20WebAIM=20Discussion=20List=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date=20sent:=20Thu,=2019=20Nov=202015=2001:10:37=20-0600
Subject:=20Re:=20[WebAIM]=20Web=20Accessibility=20For=20Notetakers

"Ever=20so=20slightly=20too=20complicated"?

Ella,=20in=20many=20cases=20that's=20an=20extreme=20understatement.=20Whene=
ver=20I=20
have=20given=20a=20presentation,=20I=20have=20found=20myself=20showing=20on=
e=20
example=20of=20an=20interface=20that=20is=20too=20complicated=20for=20every=
one.=20
(It's=20never=20the=20same=20example.=20Often,=20I=20find=20an=20example=20=
that=20is=20
actually=20easier=20to=20figure=20out=20if=20you=20rely=20on=20a=20screen=20=
reader=20but=20
can't=20see=20the=20screen.)

Many=20who=20read=20your=20message=20will=20infer=20that=20you=20mean=20the=
se=20sites=20
should=20regress=20to=20a=20plain=20format.=20I'm=20sure=20you=20aren't=20s=
uggesting=20
that.=20What=20you=20mean=20is=20that=20the=20available=20features=20should=
=20be=20easy=20
for=20everyone=20to=20discover=20and=20use=E2=80=94or,=20in=20the=20parlanc=
e=20of=20WCAG=20
2.0,=20"perceive"=20and=20"operate."

There=20are=20two=20solutions=20to=20that=20problem=20that=20we=20haven't=20=
pursued=20
enough:

1.=20Site=20owners,=20content=20managers,=20designers,=20and=20developers=20=

should=20conduct=20more=20usability=20testing=20of=20their=20designs,=20and=
=20they=20
should=20include=20people=20with=20disabilities=20among=20the=20participant=
s.=20
Those=20who=20do=20will=20make=20it=20easier=20for=20all=20people=20to=20us=
e=20the=20Web.

2.=20The=20accessibility=20community=20should=20build=20and=20maintain=20an=
=20
application=20any=20Web=20professional=20can=20use=20to=20discover=20known=
=20
techniques=20for=20producing=20usable=20and=20accessible=20interactions=20i=
n=20
the=20presentation=20technology=20they=20are=20using.=20The=20same=20applic=
ation=20
would=20allow=20developers=20to=20submit=20new=20techniques=20they=20have=20=
used=20to=20
solve=20a=20previously=20unsolved=20problem=20or=20to=20improve=20upon=20an=
=20
existing=20solution.=20Each=20technique=20submitted=20should=20be=20specifi=
c;=20
include=20appropriate=20examples=20of=20its=20implementation;=20be=20tagged=
=20
according=20to=20the=20interface=20or=20interaction=20(form,=20text=20input=
,=20
error=20checking,=20labels=20for=20fieldsets,=20navigation=20menus,=20and=20=
so=20
on),=20the=20presentation=20technology=20(HTML,=20PDF,=20XHTML,=20Word=20fo=
r=20
Windows,=20Open=20Office,=20Drupal,=20WordPress,=20Plone,=20Bootstrap.js,=20=
and=20
so=20on),=20the=20presentation=20environments=20in=20which=20it=20works=20(=
video,=20
audio,=20wearables,=20smart=20phones,=20large=20monitors,=20haptic=20
interfaces,=20and=20others),=20the=20disability=20addressed,=20the=20releva=
nt=20
WCAG=20success=20criteria,=20and=20other=20relevant=20features=20if=20I've=
=20missed=20
any;=20and=20be=20linked=20to=20closely=20related=20solutions,=20relevant=20=

tutorials,=20explanations=20of=20the=20underlying=20principles,=20and=20the=
=20
like.

This=20application=20would=20make=20it=20easier=20for=20all=20authors,=20co=
ntent=20
managers,=20designers,=20and=20developers=20to=20build=20a=20highly=20usabl=
e=20and=20
accessible=20Web.=20It=20would=20also=20help=20us=20win=20over=20people=20w=
ho=20fear=20
that=20it's=20difficult,=20expensive,=20or=20time=20consuming=20to=20build=
=20
accessible,=20usable=20interactions=E2=80=94because=20instead=20of=20having=
=20to=20
stop=20everything=20to=20take=20a=20tutorial=20or=20figure=20out=20a=20chec=
klist=20and=20
its=20results,=20they=20could=20get=20a=20quick=20solution=20to=20their=20s=
pecific=20
problem=20in=20their=20first=20experience=20with=20making=20their=20product=
=20
accessible.=20(If=20there=20is=20no=20solution,=20or=20at=20least=20no=20id=
eal=20
solution,=20they=20could=20find=20that=20out=20quickly=20and=20revise=20the=
ir=20plans=20
accordingly.=20Maybe=20that=20means=20they=20would=20give=20this=20phase=20=
of=20their=20
project=20more=20time.=20Maybe=20it=20means=20they=20would=20scrap=20the=20=
original=20
approach=20and=20use=20another=20instead.)

If=20the=20W3C=20won't=20coordinate=20the=20building=20of=20this=20applicat=
ion=20and=20
then=20host=20it,=20the=20IAAP=20should.=20Rob=20Sinclair,=20the=20first=20=
president=20
of=20the=20IAAP,=20lamented=20in=20an=20interview=20that=20he=20had=20once=
=20had=20to=20let=20
a=20group=20of=20developers=20know=20that=20the=20solution=20they=20had=20w=
orked=20so=20
hard=20to=20develop=20was=20a=20duplicate=20of=20a=20solution=20others=20ha=
d=20
developed=20two=20years=20earlier.=20With=20this=20application=20in=20place=
,=20it=20
would=20be=20highly=20unlikely=20for=20that=20circumstance=20to=20arise=20a=
gain.

Because=20even=20the=20most=20seasoned=20developer=20could=20quickly=20disc=
over=20
whether=20someone=20has=20finally=20figured=20out=20how=20to=20build=20a=20=
carrousel=20
that=20will=20thrill=20users=20with=20its=20accessibility,=20usability,=20a=
nd=20
relevance=20every=20bit=20as=20much=20as=20it=20thrills=20marketers=20and=20=

executives=20with=20whatever=20it=20is=20that=20thrills=20them=20about=20
carrousels.

Best=20regards,

Cliff=20Tyllick
Accessibility=20curmudgeon=20on=20my=20own=20time.
In=20my=20day=20job,=20accessibility=20specialist=20for=20the=20Texas=20Dep=
artment=20
of=20Assistive=20and=20Rehabilitative=20Services.

Sent=20from=20my=20iPhone
Although=20its=20spellcheck=20often=20saves=20me,=20all=20goofs=20in=20sent=
=20
messages=20are=20its=20fault.

=20On=20Nov=2018,=202015,=20at=2011:38=20PM,=20Ella=20Yu=20<ellaxyu@gmail.c=
om>=20wrote:

=20I=20totally=20agree=20with=20you,=20but=20some=20sites=20could=20be=20ma=
de=20somewhat=20
simpler=20but=20still=20have=20the=20same=20features.=20Some=20sites=20are=
=20just=20
ever=20so=20slightly=20too=20complicated.

=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----
=20From:=20"Harrison,=20Rita=20L"=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
=20To:=20WebAIM=20Discussion=20List=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
=20Date=20sent:=20Wed,=2018=20Nov=202015=2021:49:22=20+0000
=20Subject:=20Re:=20[WebAIM]=20Web=20Accessibility=20For=20Notetakers

=20Good=20Afternoon=20List,

=20After=20reading=20some=20of=20the=20comments,=20I=20would=20like=20to=20=
share=20my=20
observation=20and=20personal=20opinion=20as=20follows,=20for=20those=20who=
=20may=20
not=20be=20familiar=20with=20Notetaking=20Devices.

=20First,=20I=20absolutely=20agree=20that=20there=20is=20no=20need=20to=20m=
ake=20sites=20
simpler,=20if=20they=20are=20coded=20correctly.=20=20Individuals=20using=20=

Assistive=20Technology=20(AT),=20should=20be=20able=20to=20navigate=20witho=
ut=20a=20
problem,=20provided=20there=20is=20proper=20structure=20and=20all=20element=
s=20are=20
labeled.

=20Braille=20Notetakers=20serve=20many=20other=20purposes=20than=20just=20s=
urfing=20
the=20web.=20=20Having=20and=20using=20a=20braille=20display=20is=20an=20im=
portant=20
piece=20in=20braille=20literacy,=20which=20allows=20someone=20the=20ability=
=20to=20
read=20and=20write=20with=20ease,=20as=20those=20who=20have=20vision=20read=
=20and=20write=20
print.

=20I=20personally=20use=20and=20have=20done=20so=20for=20years,=20a=20Brail=
le=20Notetaker=20
and=20find=20it=20much=20more=20portable=20to=20use=20when=20I=20lead=20and=
/or=20attend=20
meetings,=20when=20I'm=20doing=20a=20formal=20Presentation=20and=20for=20ta=
king=20
notes=20on=20the=20fly.

=20Rather=20than=20discourage=20someone=20from=20purchasing=20and=20using=20=
a=20
Braille=20Notetaker,=20perhaps=20the=20focus=20should=20be=20on=20those=20w=
ho=20
manufacture=20and=20sell=20these=20devices,=20to=20use=20a=20more=20current=
=20
browser,=20so=20everyone=20using=20these=20wonderful=20devices,=20are=20abl=
e=20to=20
access=20the=20information=20they=20need=20when=20they=20need=20it,=20becau=
se=20the=20
cost=20of=20these=20devices=20is=20high=20and=20we=20should=20expect=20to=20=
be=20able=20to=20
access=20information=20online=20using=20a=20current=20browser.

=20I=20absolutely=20understand=20some=20of=20the=20frustration=20voiced=20h=
ere=20and=20
I=20thank=20you=20for=20affording=20me=20the=20opportunity=20to=20share=20m=
y=20view.

=20I=20hope=20everyone=20is=20having=20a=20great=20Wednesday!

=20Rita=20L.=20Harrison,=20FDA=20508=20Coordinator
=20Lead,=20508=20Web=20Task=20Force
=20Chairperson,=20Advisory=20Committee=20for=20Employees=20with=20Disabilit=
ies=20
(ACED)
=20OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
=20Web=20Support=20Team=20(WST)
=20Phone:=20=20805-620-0203
= = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

=20-----Original=20Message-----
=20From:=20WebAIM-Forum=20[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]=20
On=20Behalf=20Of=20Lucy=20Greco
=20Sent:=20Wednesday,=20November=2018,=202015=2010:34=20AM
=20To:=20WebAIM=20Discussion=20List
=20Subject:=20Re:=20[WebAIM]=20Web=20Accessibility=20For=20Notetakers

=20blind=20users=20are=20able=20to=20use=20all=20of=20the=20sites=20you=20=
=20mention=20there=20
is=20no=20reason=20to=20make=20these=20more=20simplified.=20what=20you=20re=
ally=20
should=20be=20asking=20for=20is=20ways=20to=20learn=20how=20to=20use=20mode=
rn=20web=20apps.=20
using=20devices=20like=20a=20braille=20note=20or=20braille=20sense=20are=20=
crutches.=20
these=20devices=20were=20never=20meant=20to=20be=20the=20way=20to=20access=
=20the=20
INTERNET=20i=20get=20vary=20=20frustrated=20when=20blind=20people=20say=20i=
=20can't=20use=20
a=20web=20site=20with=20my=2012=20year=20old=20or=20more=20technology=20my=
=20advice=20to=20a=20
person=20wanting=20to=20by=20a=20note=20taker=20today=20is=20save=20your=20=
money=20and=20
pay=20for=20training=20on=20how=20to=20use=20a=20computer=20and=20mobile=20=
phone=20to=20do=20
your=20tasks=20and=20you=20will=20still=20have=20=20money=20left=20at=20the=
=20end=20to=20by=20
things=20on=20the=20INTERNET=20that=20your=20modern=20devices=20can=20acces=
s.=20i=20get=20
vary=20upset=20when=20students=20come=20to=20me=20saying=20i=20can't=20use=
=20a=20web=20site=20=20
with=20my=20braille=20note.=20when=20the=20web=20site=20is=20accessible=20i=
f=20they=20
were=20just=20using=20the=20write=20tech=20to=20do=20so.=20in=20the=20age=20=
of=20bring=20your=20
own=20device=20we=20have=20a=20responsibility=20to=20be=20sure=20the=20=20d=
evice=20we=20are=20
bringing=20meets=20the=20base=20line=20for=20security=20and=20access=20that=
=20every=20
one=20else=20has=20to=20meet.=20If=20a=20blind=20person=20is=20using=20a=20=
device=20like=20a=20
braille=20note=20to=20do=20things=20like=20enter=20there=20ssn=20or=20other=
=20personal=20
data=20its=20only=20a=20matter=20of=20time=20before=20that=20data=20is=20us=
ed=20against=20
them

=20Lucia=20Greco
=20Web=20Accessibility=20Evangelist
=20IST=20-=20Architecture,=20Platforms,=20and=20Integration
=20University=20of=20California,=20Berkeley
=20(510)=20289-6008=20skype:=20lucia1-greco
=20http://webaccess.berkeley.edu

=20On=20Wed,=20Nov=2018,=202015=20at=209:36=20AM,=20Ella=20Yu=20<ellaxyu@gm=
ail.com>=20
wrote:

=20Thank=20you=20for=20your=20insights,=20Simon.


=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----
=20From:=20Simon=20Evans=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
=20To:=20WebAIM=20Discussion=20List=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
=20Date=20sent:=20Wed,=2018=20Nov=202015=2017:19:09=20+0000
=20Subject:=20Re:=20[WebAIM]=20Web=20Accessibility=20For=20Notetakers

=20Hi=20Ella,

=20WinCE=20with=20only=20IE6=20being=20so=20popular=20in=20disability=20con=
texts=20
definitely
=20gives=20this=20merit;=20=20its=20still=20supported/licensed=20until=2020=
16/2018=20
too,=20=20so=20brand=20new=20BrailleNotes=20and=20several=20popular=20
AAC/enviroment=20focused=20devices=20still=20ship=20with=20it.=20Even=20whe=
n=20
newer=20hardware=20allows=20a=20move=20to=20later=20operating=20systems,=20=
the=20high=20
cost=20of=20these=20devices=20will=20often=20mean
=20a=20geological=20lifespan=20for=20earlier=20models.

=20Accessibility=20was=20a=20good=20argument=20for=20maintaining=20limited=
=20'IE6=20
support'
=20on=20websites,=20but=20one=20that=20was=20drowned=20out=20by=20the=20hug=
e=20weight=20of=20
hate=20against=20it=20in=20general=20use=20and=20the=20focus=20on=20screenr=
eaders=20and=20
new
=20Standards=20in=20accessibility=20circles.=20Since=20its=20official=20dem=
ise=20on=20
desktops,=20most=20developers=20probably=20don't=20consider=20IE6=20for=20a=
n=20
instant=20and
=20awareness=20of=20specialist=20hardware=20is=20generally=20quite=20low.

=20I'd=20guess=20if=20you=20raise=20the=20prominence=20of=20the=20use=20cas=
e,=20some=20
influential
=20bloggers/writers=20might=20pick=20up=20on=20it=20-=20it's=20quite=20an=20=

interesting,
=20'counter-cultural'=20issue=20and=20one=20that=20adversely=20effects=20
thousands=20of
=20people.

=20Simon

=20On=2011/11/2015=201:28=20AM,=20Ella=20Yu=20wrote:
=20Hi=20all,
=20I'm=20hoping=20this=20is=20acceptable=20for=20this=20list.=20I'm=20wonde=
ring=20if=20it=20
is=20possible=20to=20make=20certain=20sites=20such=20as=20outlook,=20gmail,=
=20google=20
services=20(play,=20groups=20and=20drive)=20and=20yahoo=20services=20more=20=

accessible=20for=20people=20who=20have=20old=20browsers=20and=20are=20unabl=
e=20to=20
upgrade.=20I=20think=20these=20sites=20could=20be=20simplified=20and=20have=
=20the=20
same=20essential=20features.=20What=20do=20you=20think?

To=20manage=20your=20subscription,=20visit=20http://list.webaim.org/
List=20archives=20at=20http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
Address=20list=20messages=20to= = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 8:56AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

> I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just ever so slightly too complicated.

As an FYI -- the Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Task Force at the W3C is working on some documents that may eventually assist users in personalizing the user interface to make them less complex, more personalized, and only show the user relevant information.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/wiki/Personalization_criteria
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/

Jonathan

--
Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

703-637-8957 (o)
Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Ella Yu
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:39 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just ever so slightly too complicated.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harrison, Rita L" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:49:22 +0000
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Good Afternoon List,

After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may not be familiar with Notetaking Devices.

First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites simpler, if they are coded correctly. Individuals using Assistive Technology (AT), should be able to navigate without a problem, provided there is proper structure and all elements are labeled.

Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing the web. Having and using a braille display is an important piece in braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to read and write with ease, as those who have vision read and write print.

I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker and find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend meetings, when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking notes on the fly.

Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a Braille Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who manufacture and sell these devices, to use a more current browser, so everyone using these wonderful devices, are able to access the information they need when they need it, because the cost of these devices is high and we should expect to be able to access information online using a current browser.

I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.

I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!

Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
Lead, 508 Web Task Force
Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities
(ACED)
OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
Web Support Team (WST)
Phone: 805-620-0203
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no
reason to make these more simplified. what you really should
be asking
for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices lie a braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never meant to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when blind people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more technology
my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save
your
money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile phone to do your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by things on the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary upset when students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my braille note.
when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write tech to do so.
in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to be sure
the device we are bringing meets the base line for
security and
access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is useing a device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or other personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used against them

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

Thank you for your insights, Simon.


----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Hi Ella,

WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean a geological lifespan for earlier models.

Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.

I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting, 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of people.



Simon




On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
Hi all,
I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you think?

--
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: _mallory
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 9:28AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 02:14:08PM +0000, Simon Evans wrote:
> ...WinCE 6.0 is in Extended Support until October 2018 - its patched regularly - the last Security Update for IE was in August (2015)
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/search.aspx?q=Windows+Embedded+CE+6.0+Monthly+Update

wow, mind blown.

_mallory

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 10:34AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

You made no mistakes, Ella. I apologize for forgetting that not all forms of humor are easy to understand online.

Actually, I was strongly agreeing with you.

If an interface causes you to stop and think about how it is supposed to work, then it is not as usable as it should be. So even a little weird is too weird, as I consider it.

Thanks for participating!

Cliff

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Sorry for my mistakes. What I mean is some of the elements are a little weird, but nothing terrifying.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cliff Tyllick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 01:10:37 -0600
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> "Ever so slightly too complicated"?
>
> Ella, in many cases that's an extreme understatement. Whenever I have given a presentation, I have found myself showing one example of an interface that is too complicated for everyone. (It's never the same example. Often, I find an example that is actually easier to figure out if you rely on a screen reader but can't see the screen.)
>
> Many who read your message will infer that you mean these sites should regress to a plain format. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that. What you mean is that the available features should be easy for everyone to discover and use—or, in the parlance of WCAG 2.0, "perceive" and "operate."
>
> There are two solutions to that problem that we haven't pursued enough:
>
> 1. Site owners, content managers, designers, and developers should conduct more usability testing of their designs, and they should include people with disabilities among the participants. Those who do will make it easier for all people to use the Web.
>
> 2. The accessibility community should build and maintain an application any Web professional can use to discover known techniques for producing usable and accessible interactions in the presentation technology they are using. The same application would allow developers to submit new techniques they have used to solve a previously unsolved problem or to improve upon an existing solution. Each technique submitted should be specific; include appropriate examples of its implementation; be tagged according to the interface or interaction (form, text input, error checking, labels for fieldsets, navigation menus, and so on), the presentation technology (HTML, PDF, XHTML, Word for Windows, Open Office, Drupal, WordPress, Plone, Bootstrap.js, and so on), the presentation environments in which it works (video, audio, wearables, smart phones, large monitors, haptic interfaces, and others), the disability addressed, the relevant WCAG success criteria, and other relevant features if I've missed any; and be linked to closely related solutions, relevant tutorials, explanations of the underlying principles, and the like.
>
> This application would make it easier for all authors, content managers, designers, and developers to build a highly usable and accessible Web. It would also help us win over people who fear that it's difficult, expensive, or time consuming to build accessible, usable interactions—because instead of having to stop everything to take a tutorial or figure out a checklist and its results, they could get a quick solution to their specific problem in their first experience with making their product accessible. (If there is no solution, or at least no ideal solution, they could find that out quickly and revise their plans accordingly. Maybe that means they would give this phase of their project more time. Maybe it means they would scrap the original approach and use another instead.)
>
> If the W3C won't coordinate the building of this application and then host it, the IAAP should. Rob Sinclair, the first president of the IAAP, lamented in an interview that he had once had to let a group of developers know that the solution they had worked so hard to develop was a duplicate of a solution others had developed two years earlier. With this application in place, it would be highly unlikely for that circumstance to arise again.
>
> Because even the most seasoned developer could quickly discover whether someone has finally figured out how to build a carrousel that will thrill users with its accessibility, usability, and relevance every bit as much as it thrills marketers and executives with whatever it is that thrills them about carrousels.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Cliff Tyllick
> Accessibility curmudgeon on my own time.
> In my day job, accessibility specialist for the Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.
>
> On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just ever so slightly too complicated.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harrison, Rita L" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:49:22 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> Good Afternoon List,
>
> After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may not be familiar with Notetaking Devices.
>
> First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites simpler, if they are coded correctly. Individuals using Assistive Technology (AT), should be able to navigate without a problem, provided there is proper structure and all elements are labeled.
>
> Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing the web. Having and using a braille display is an important piece in braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to read and write with ease, as those who have vision read and write print.
>
> I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker and find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend meetings, when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking notes on the fly.
>
> Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a Braille Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who manufacture and sell these devices, to use a more current browser, so everyone using these wonderful devices, are able to access the information they need when they need it, because the cost of these devices is high and we should expect to be able to access information online using a current browser.
>
> I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.
>
> I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!
>
> Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
> Lead, 508 Web Task Force
> Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED)
> OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
> Web Support Team (WST)
> Phone: 805-620-0203
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no reason to make these more simplified. what you really should be asking for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices like a braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never meant to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when blind people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more technology my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save your money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile phone to do your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by things on the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary upset when students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my braille note. when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write tech to do so. in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to be sure the device we are bringing meets the base line for security and access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is using a device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or other personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used against them
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Thank you for your insights, Simon.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>
> Hi Ella,
>
> WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
> gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
> a geological lifespan for earlier models.
>
> Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
> on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
> Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and
> awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
>
> I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
> bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
> 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
> people.
>
> Simon
>
> On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you think?
>
> > > > >
> > > >

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 10:47AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Although Windows CE has been around for nearly 20 years, I think this is the first I have heard of it. What are some examples of specific devices that run this OS?

Cliff Tyllick
Accessibility Specialist
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Nov 19, 2015, at 10:28 AM, _mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 02:14:08PM +0000, Simon Evans wrote:
>> ...WinCE 6.0 is in Extended Support until October 2018 - its patched regularly - the last Security Update for IE was in August (2015)
>>
>> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/search.aspx?q=Windows+Embedded+CE+6.0+Monthly+Update
>
> wow, mind blown.
>
> _mallory
> > > >

From: Ella Yu
Date: Thu, Nov 19 2015 11:15AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

BrailleNote, BrailleSense, and other mobile devices I think.

----- Original Message -----
From: Cliff Tyllick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date sent: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:47:31 -0600
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers

Although Windows CE has been around for nearly 20 years, I think
this is the first I have heard of it. What are some examples of
specific devices that run this OS?

Cliff Tyllick
Accessibility Specialist
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent
messages are its fault.

On Nov 19, 2015, at 10:28 AM, _mallory
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 02:14:08PM +0000, Simon Evans wrote:
...WinCE 6.0 is in Extended Support until October 2018 - its
patched regularly - the last Security Update for IE was in August
(2015)


https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/search.aspx?q=Windows+Em
bedded+CE+6.0+Monthly+Update

wow, mind blown.

_mallory

From: Chaals McCathie Nevile
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2015 11:22PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

On Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:47:31 +0100, Cliff Tyllick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Although Windows CE has been around for nearly 20 years, I think this is
> the first I have heard of it. What are some examples of specific devices
> that run this OS?

Actually, a lot of commercial airliners run their in-flight entertainment
systems on it, although I doubt they have it set up to provide assistive
technology support ;(

cheers

chaals

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

From: Kevin Prince
Date: Thu, Nov 26 2015 6:45PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

Poor usability is a classic - I call these equal opportunity inaccessible sites - my favourite was always Overdrive Ebooks (It may have improved, the iOS app was reasonably usable and very accessible). As a sighted user its desktop incarnation was tortuous, confusing and too hard to waste my time on; oddly enough it was technically quite accessible. It was therefore horrible for everyone :) but screenreader users often assumed it was inaccessible per se.

Some interesting comments here - I don’t see anyt need to throw away those notetakes. For one thing they are a handy braille display and great for ‘taking notes’. Are they the best device for surfing the web? Unlikely but they pair neatly with your phone which probably is etc etc and will act as great add on to your PC.

I don’t agree with the concept of trying to do everything on them(especially in education) - sighted people don’t just use one device so why would blind users - go with the one that makes sense in the context you find yourself. I wouldn’t write an essay on a phone, but I might fact check for it or catch my email on the fly etc etc

Kevin
Access1in5
0212220638
039290692
Independent Accessibility and IT Consultancy.



> On 19/11/2015, at 20:10, Cliff Tyllick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> "Ever so slightly too complicated"?
>
> Ella, in many cases that's an extreme understatement. Whenever I have given a presentation, I have found myself showing one example of an interface that is too complicated for everyone. (It's never the same example. Often, I find an example that is actually easier to figure out if you rely on a screen reader but can't see the screen.)
>
> Many who read your message will infer that you mean these sites should regress to a plain format. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that. What you mean is that the available features should be easy for everyone to discover and use—or, in the parlance of WCAG 2.0, "perceive" and "operate."
>
> There are two solutions to that problem that we haven't pursued enough:
>
> 1. Site owners, content managers, designers, and developers should conduct more usability testing of their designs, and they should include people with disabilities among the participants. Those who do will make it easier for all people to use the Web.
>
> 2. The accessibility community should build and maintain an application any Web professional can use to discover known techniques for producing usable and accessible interactions in the presentation technology they are using. The same application would allow developers to submit new techniques they have used to solve a previously unsolved problem or to improve upon an existing solution. Each technique submitted should be specific; include appropriate examples of its implementation; be tagged according to the interface or interaction (form, text input, error checking, labels for fieldsets, navigation menus, and so on), the presentation technology (HTML, PDF, XHTML, Word for Windows, Open Office, Drupal, WordPress, Plone, Bootstrap.js, and so on), the presentation environments in which it works (video, audio, wearables, smart phones, large monitors, haptic interfaces, and others), the disability addressed, the relevant WCAG success criteria, and other relevant features if I've missed any; and be linked to closely related solutions, relevant tutorials, explanations of the underlying principles, and the like.
>
> This application would make it easier for all authors, content managers, designers, and developers to build a highly usable and accessible Web. It would also help us win over people who fear that it's difficult, expensive, or time consuming to build accessible, usable interactions—because instead of having to stop everything to take a tutorial or figure out a checklist and its results, they could get a quick solution to their specific problem in their first experience with making their product accessible. (If there is no solution, or at least no ideal solution, they could find that out quickly and revise their plans accordingly. Maybe that means they would give this phase of their project more time. Maybe it means they would scrap the original approach and use another instead.)
>
> If the W3C won't coordinate the building of this application and then host it, the IAAP should. Rob Sinclair, the first president of the IAAP, lamented in an interview that he had once had to let a group of developers know that the solution they had worked so hard to develop was a duplicate of a solution others had developed two years earlier. With this application in place, it would be highly unlikely for that circumstance to arise again.
>
> Because even the most seasoned developer could quickly discover whether someone has finally figured out how to build a carrousel that will thrill users with its accessibility, usability, and relevance every bit as much as it thrills marketers and executives with whatever it is that thrills them about carrousels.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Cliff Tyllick
> Accessibility curmudgeon on my own time.
> In my day job, accessibility specialist for the Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.
>
>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just ever so slightly too complicated.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Harrison, Rita L" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:49:22 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>
>> Good Afternoon List,
>>
>> After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may not be familiar with Notetaking Devices.
>>
>> First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites simpler, if they are coded correctly. Individuals using Assistive Technology (AT), should be able to navigate without a problem, provided there is proper structure and all elements are labeled.
>>
>> Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing the web. Having and using a braille display is an important piece in braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to read and write with ease, as those who have vision read and write print.
>>
>> I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker and find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend meetings, when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking notes on the fly.
>>
>> Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a Braille Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who manufacture and sell these devices, to use a more current browser, so everyone using these wonderful devices, are able to access the information they need when they need it, because the cost of these devices is high and we should expect to be able to access information online using a current browser.
>>
>> I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.
>>
>> I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!
>>
>> Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
>> Lead, 508 Web Task Force
>> Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED)
>> OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
>> Web Support Team (WST)
>> Phone: 805-620-0203
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>
>> blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no reason to make these more simplified. what you really should be asking for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices like a braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never meant to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when blind people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more technology my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is save your money and pay for training on how to use a computer and mobile phone to do your tasks and you will still have money left at the end to by things on the INTERNET that your modern devices can access. i get vary upset when students come to me saying i can't use a web site with my braille note. when the web site is accessible if they were just using the write tech to do so. in the age of bring your own device we have a responsibility to be sure the device we are bringing meets the base line for security and access that every one else has to meet. If a blind person is using a device like a braille note to do things like enter there ssn or other personal data its only a matter of time before that data is used against them
>>
>>> Lucia Greco
>>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for your insights, Simon.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>
>> Hi Ella,
>>
>> WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
>> gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too, so brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
>> a geological lifespan for earlier models.
>>
>> Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
>> on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
>> Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant and
>> awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
>>
>> I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
>> bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
>> 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
>> people.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you think?
>>
> > > >

From: Chaals McCathie Nevile
Date: Sun, Nov 29 2015 7:07PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility For Notetakers
← Previous message | Next message →

On Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:45:52 +1000, Kevin Prince < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
[...]
> Some interesting comments here - I don’t see anyt need to throw away
> those notetakes. For one thing they are a handy braille display and
> great for ‘taking notes’. Are they the best device for surfing the web?
> Unlikely but they pair neatly with your phone which probably is etc etc
> and will act as great add on to your PC.

Very good points.

> I don’t agree with the concept of trying to do everything on
> them(especially in education) - sighted people don’t just use one device

Actually, that depends a lot on how rich the sighted user is, how they get
their devices, and how they learn to switch devices.

In my experience, and there is at least some research that shows this is
common, *most* people who need glasses to magnify things don't increase
the text size to something comfortable but instead strain to read things
that are too small. Despite having an effective and free tool in their
hand to solve the problem properly.

> so why would blind users

Unfortunately, many people are stuck in a real-world situation where they
can only have one device, and it was decided in the past what that device
would be. For example, employees in large companies are often highly
constrained in what they can use - although the constraints are often just
stupid, and there are other similar companies where such constraints do
not apply.

Other people are relying on something they learned to use, or the way they
learned to use something they have. Millions of people *do* use Word, but
have almost no idea how to do basic things that make it work really well -
and don't even know that they could (and should) be doing things that way.

> - go with the one that makes sense in the context you find yourself. I
> wouldn’t write an essay on a phone, but I might fact check for it or
> catch my email on the fly etc etc

Sure. But if it is the best tool that you have, you would indeed use it.

The question boils down to understanding what people have, and do, out
there in the real world. It is important to help us use better tools, and
use our tools better, but just assuming we will do so is ignoring reality.

cheers

> Kevin
> Access1in5
> 0212220638
> 039290692
> Independent Accessibility and IT Consultancy.
>
>
>
>> On 19/11/2015, at 20:10, Cliff Tyllick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> "Ever so slightly too complicated"?
>>
>> Ella, in many cases that's an extreme understatement. Whenever I have
>> given a presentation, I have found myself showing one example of an
>> interface that is too complicated for everyone. (It's never the same
>> example. Often, I find an example that is actually easier to figure out
>> if you rely on a screen reader but can't see the screen.)
>>
>> Many who read your message will infer that you mean these sites should
>> regress to a plain format. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that. What
>> you mean is that the available features should be easy for everyone to
>> discover and use—or, in the parlance of WCAG 2.0, "perceive" and
>> "operate."
>>
>> There are two solutions to that problem that we haven't pursued enough:
>>
>> 1. Site owners, content managers, designers, and developers should
>> conduct more usability testing of their designs, and they should
>> include people with disabilities among the participants. Those who do
>> will make it easier for all people to use the Web.
>>
>> 2. The accessibility community should build and maintain an application
>> any Web professional can use to discover known techniques for producing
>> usable and accessible interactions in the presentation technology they
>> are using. The same application would allow developers to submit new
>> techniques they have used to solve a previously unsolved problem or to
>> improve upon an existing solution. Each technique submitted should be
>> specific; include appropriate examples of its implementation; be tagged
>> according to the interface or interaction (form, text input, error
>> checking, labels for fieldsets, navigation menus, and so on), the
>> presentation technology (HTML, PDF, XHTML, Word for Windows, Open
>> Office, Drupal, WordPress, Plone, Bootstrap.js, and so on), the
>> presentation environments in which it works (video, audio, wearables,
>> smart phones, large monitors, haptic interfaces, and others), the
>> disability addressed, the relevant WCAG success criteria, and other
>> relevant features if I've missed any; and be linked to closely related
>> solutions, relevant tutorials, explanations of the underlying
>> principles, and the like.
>>
>> This application would make it easier for all authors, content
>> managers, designers, and developers to build a highly usable and
>> accessible Web. It would also help us win over people who fear that
>> it's difficult, expensive, or time consuming to build accessible,
>> usable interactions—because instead of having to stop everything to
>> take a tutorial or figure out a checklist and its results, they could
>> get a quick solution to their specific problem in their first
>> experience with making their product accessible. (If there is no
>> solution, or at least no ideal solution, they could find that out
>> quickly and revise their plans accordingly. Maybe that means they would
>> give this phase of their project more time. Maybe it means they would
>> scrap the original approach and use another instead.)
>>
>> If the W3C won't coordinate the building of this application and then
>> host it, the IAAP should. Rob Sinclair, the first president of the
>> IAAP, lamented in an interview that he had once had to let a group of
>> developers know that the solution they had worked so hard to develop
>> was a duplicate of a solution others had developed two years earlier.
>> With this application in place, it would be highly unlikely for that
>> circumstance to arise again.
>>
>> Because even the most seasoned developer could quickly discover whether
>> someone has finally figured out how to build a carrousel that will
>> thrill users with its accessibility, usability, and relevance every bit
>> as much as it thrills marketers and executives with whatever it is that
>> thrills them about carrousels.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Cliff Tyllick
>> Accessibility curmudgeon on my own time.
>> In my day job, accessibility specialist for the Texas Department of
>> Assistive and Rehabilitative Services.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are
>> its fault.
>>
>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 11:38 PM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> I totally agree with you, but some sites could be made somewhat
>>> simpler but still have the same features. Some sites are just ever so
>>> slightly too complicated.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Harrison, Rita L" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:49:22 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>>
>>> Good Afternoon List,
>>>
>>> After reading some of the comments, I would like to share my
>>> observation and personal opinion as follows, for those who may not be
>>> familiar with Notetaking Devices.
>>>
>>> First, I absolutely agree that there is no need to make sites simpler,
>>> if they are coded correctly. Individuals using Assistive Technology
>>> (AT), should be able to navigate without a problem, provided there is
>>> proper structure and all elements are labeled.
>>>
>>> Braille Notetakers serve many other purposes than just surfing the
>>> web. Having and using a braille display is an important piece in
>>> braille literacy, which allows someone the ability to read and write
>>> with ease, as those who have vision read and write print.
>>>
>>> I personally use and have done so for years, a Braille Notetaker and
>>> find it much more portable to use when I lead and/or attend meetings,
>>> when I'm doing a formal Presentation and for taking notes on the fly.
>>>
>>> Rather than discourage someone from purchasing and using a Braille
>>> Notetaker, perhaps the focus should be on those who manufacture and
>>> sell these devices, to use a more current browser, so everyone using
>>> these wonderful devices, are able to access the information they need
>>> when they need it, because the cost of these devices is high and we
>>> should expect to be able to access information online using a current
>>> browser.
>>>
>>> I absolutely understand some of the frustration voiced here and I
>>> thank you for affording me the opportunity to share my view.
>>>
>>> I hope everyone is having a great Wednesday!
>>>
>>> Rita L. Harrison, FDA 508 Coordinator
>>> Lead, 508 Web Task Force
>>> Chairperson, Advisory Committee for Employees with Disabilities (ACED)
>>> OO/OIMT/DBPS/IIB
>>> Web Support Team (WST)
>>> Phone: 805-620-0203
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>> Behalf Of Lucy Greco
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:34 AM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>>
>>> blind users are able to use all of the sites you mention there is no
>>> reason to make these more simplified. what you really should be asking
>>> for is ways to learn how to use modern web apps. using devices like a
>>> braille note or braille sense are crutches. these devices were never
>>> meant to be the way to access the INTERNET i get vary frustrated when
>>> blind people say i can't use a web site with my 12 year old or more
>>> technology my advice to a person wanting to by a note taker today is
>>> save your money and pay for training on how to use a computer and
>>> mobile phone to do your tasks and you will still have money left at
>>> the end to by things on the INTERNET that your modern devices can
>>> access. i get vary upset when students come to me saying i can't use a
>>> web site with my braille note. when the web site is accessible if
>>> they were just using the write tech to do so. in the age of bring your
>>> own device we have a responsibility to be sure the device we are
>>> bringing meets the base line for security and access that every one
>>> else has to meet. If a blind person is using a device like a braille
>>> note to do things like enter there ssn or other personal data its only
>>> a matter of time before that data is used against them
>>>
>>>> Lucia Greco
>>>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>>>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
>>>> University of California, Berkeley
>>>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>>>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Ella Yu < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you for your insights, Simon.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Simon Evans < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> Date sent: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:19:09 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility For Notetakers
>>>
>>> Hi Ella,
>>>
>>> WinCE with only IE6 being so popular in disability contexts definitely
>>> gives this merit; its still supported/licensed until 2016/2018 too,
>>> so brand new BrailleNotes and several popular AAC/enviroment focused
>>> devices still ship with it. Even when newer hardware allows a move to
>>> later operating systems, the high cost of these devices will often mean
>>> a geological lifespan for earlier models.
>>>
>>> Accessibility was a good argument for maintaining limited 'IE6 support'
>>> on websites, but one that was drowned out by the huge weight of hate
>>> against it in general use and the focus on screenreaders and new
>>> Standards in accessibility circles. Since its official demise on
>>> desktops, most developers probably don't consider IE6 for an instant
>>> and
>>> awareness of specialist hardware is generally quite low.
>>>
>>> I'd guess if you raise the prominence of the use case, some influential
>>> bloggers/writers might pick up on it - it's quite an interesting,
>>> 'counter-cultural' issue and one that adversely effects thousands of
>>> people.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> On 11/11/2015 1:28 AM, Ella Yu wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I'm hoping this is acceptable for this list. I'm wondering if it is
>>> possible to make certain sites such as outlook, gmail, google services
>>> (play, groups and drive) and yahoo services more accessible for people
>>> who have old browsers and are unable to upgrade. I think these sites
>>> could be simplified and have the same essential features. What do you
>>> think?
>>>
>> >> >> >> >
> > > > --
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

From: Joseph Sherman
Date: Wed, Dec 09 2015 3:32PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility training
← Previous message | Next message →

Curious about what folks do for web designer training, since I can't train everyone across 30 campuses. Have you brought in outside trainers, approximately what do they charge and cover, and how long is the course?

Thanks.

Joseph

From: Jennison Mark Asuncion
Date: Wed, Dec 09 2015 4:49PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility training
← Previous message | Next message →

I'll take the opportunity of Joseph's question to let folks know that
Facebook recently made public their internal intro to web
accessibility module
HIKE - Introduction to accessibility concepts for the Web
http://accessibility.parseapp.com.
This may fill a piece of the training need for some.

Jennison


On 12/9/15, Joseph Sherman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Curious about what folks do for web designer training, since I can't train
> everyone across 30 campuses. Have you brought in outside trainers,
> approximately what do they charge and cover, and how long is the course?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joseph
> > > > >

From: Thompson, Rachel
Date: Wed, Dec 09 2015 4:51PM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility training
← Previous message | Next message →

I would love to know this as well. We have some funding to pay for various training needs, but are still sussing out the most effective way to proceed. We have a diverse campus web landscape with several CMS and a big range of web service models. Any suggestions, esteemed list?

Dr. Rachel S. Thompson
Director, Emerging Technology and Accessibility
Center for Instructional Technology
University of Alabama

> On Dec 9, 2015, at 16:32, "Joseph Sherman" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Curious about what folks do for web designer training, since I can't train everyone across 30 campuses. Have you brought in outside trainers, approximately what do they charge and cover, and how long is the course?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joseph
> > > >

From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Thu, Dec 10 2015 7:23AM
Subject: Re: Web Accessibility training
← Previous message | No next message

We are working on solving this issue as well. Our agency has 50K staff and is spread across Texas. Much of the application design and development is performed by contracted staff/agencies.

We would like to implement a program that requires that anyone who touches content, including applications, have the appropriate training or demonstrate that they have the knowledge necessary produce accessible products.

The ideal solution would integrate accessibility into existing training for designers, developers and content creators. Basically, when you learn to use the tools, you learn to do it in an manner that produces accessible results. In my experience when accessibility is taught as a separate subject it gets treated as a separate task and never gets integrated into the design and development process. It becomes design then develop then through it over the wall to an accessibility specialist to make it "compliant" My hope is that if we can integrate it into existing training for how people do their jobs then we will have better results.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Thompson, Rachel
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 5:52 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Web Accessibility training

I would love to know this as well. We have some funding to pay for various training needs, but are still sussing out the most effective way to proceed. We have a diverse campus web landscape with several CMS and a big range of web service models. Any suggestions, esteemed list?

Dr. Rachel S. Thompson
Director, Emerging Technology and Accessibility Center for Instructional Technology University of Alabama

> On Dec 9, 2015, at 16:32, "Joseph Sherman" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Curious about what folks do for web designer training, since I can't train everyone across 30 campuses. Have you brought in outside trainers, approximately what do they charge and cover, and how long is the course?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Joseph
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>