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Thread: Lists without bullet or number characters
Number of posts in this thread: 5 (In chronological order)
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Fri, Aug 19 2016 3:53PM
Subject: Lists without bullet or number characters
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Is it compliant with WCAG and/or PDF/UA to have lists without bullet
characters or numbers?
And if so, would they be tagged as:
For WCAG,
<ul>
<li>
<li>
</ul>
And for PDF/UA
<L>
<li>
<li>
(and without the <LBL> and <LBody> sub-tags?)
--Bevi Chagnon
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | <http://www.pubcom.com/>; www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
- - -
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Aug 19 2016 4:22PM
Subject: Re: Lists without bullet or number characters
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On 19/08/2016 22:53, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
> Is it compliant with WCAG and/or PDF/UA to have lists without bullet
> characters or numbers?
Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would violate?
P
>
>
> And if so, would they be tagged as:
>
>
>
> For WCAG,
>
> <ul>
>
> <li>
>
> <li>
>
> </ul>
>
>
>
> And for PDF/UA
>
> <L>
>
> <li>
>
> <li>
>
> (and without the <LBL> and <LBody> sub-tags?)
>
>
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
>
>
> - - -
>
> Bevi Chagnon | <http://www.pubcom.com/>; www.PubCom.com
>
> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>
> for publishing & communication
>
> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>
> - - -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > >
--
Patrick H. Lauke
www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Fri, Aug 19 2016 4:46PM
Subject: Re: Lists without bullet or number characters
← Previous message | Next message →
Patrick L wrote: < Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would violate? >
Neither WCAG or PDF/UA mention this situation one way or the other. They reference only normal bulleted and numbered lists.
Since HTML coding doesn't specifically tag the actual bullet or number character, it's probably OK to not have a bullet or number character itself. The content will be understandable without them. Example:
In HTML
<UL>
<LI>
<LI>
</UL>
But with PDFs, there's only one <L> tag to apply to both ordered (numbered) or unordered (bulleted) lists. And PDF/UA standards (7.6) suggest subtags on the individual <LI> list items. Example:
<L>
<LI>
<Lbl> bullet or number character
<Lbody> item text
<LI> etc.
The <Lbl> tag surrounds the bullet or number character and annouces to the user the actual bullet or number.
So my original question, revised for clarify, is:
Is it compliant with WCAG and PDF/UA to not have visual (or announced) bullet or number characters in a list?
--Bevi Chagnon
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
â â â
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 6:23 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Lists without bullet or number characters
On 19/08/2016 22:53, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
> Is it compliant with WCAG and/or PDF/UA to have lists without bullet
> characters or numbers?
Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would violate?
P
>
>
> And if so, would they be tagged as:
>
>
>
> For WCAG,
>
> <ul>
>
> <li>
>
> <li>
>
> </ul>
>
>
>
> And for PDF/UA
>
> <L>
>
> <li>
>
> <li>
>
> (and without the <LBL> and <LBody> sub-tags?)
> --Bevi Chagnon
> - - -
>
> Bevi Chagnon | <http://www.pubcom.com/>; www.PubCom.com
>
> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>
> for publishing & communication
>
> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>
> - - -
From: Duff Johnson
Date: Fri, Aug 19 2016 8:19PM
Subject: Re: Lists without bullet or number characters
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Bevi,
Certainly, PDF/UA does not require that list items have labels. That would be a content requirement rather than a structural / syntactical requirement, and PDF/UA focusses on "getting the PDF aspect of things right". It's not a best-practice guide for authoring, merely a bunch of rules for software developers.
The short version: PDF 1.7 and PDF/UA-1 do not explicitly prohibit content as a direct child of <LI> structure elements.
In practice, AT (that I'm aware of) that uses tagged PDF "understands" this situation by simply reading the label (if any) and body together (which is far from ideal, see below).
FWIW, the current draft of the PDF Association's Tagged PDF Best Practice Guide prohibits this practice.
In general, PDF/UA always requires the most semantically appropriate tag. For list items, there's always a "body" and usually, there's label content too. Since PDF/UA requires "semantically appropriate" structure elements, a strict reading implies that the content of a list item must *always* include structure elements necessary to disambiguating labels from list-bodies in all cases.
Imagine this case:
<P>
My list of things to buy.
<LI>
4 wheels.
Who knows if this means item # 4 or "4 wheels"? But...
<P>
My list of things to buy.
<LI>
<Lbl>
4
<LBody>
wheels.
and
<P>
My list of things to buy.
<LI>
<LBody>
4 wheels.
are completely clear.
In reviewing the current drafts of PDF 2.0 and PDF/UA-2, I agree with the current draft of the Best Practice Guide, and think the screws need to be tightened on this one. IE, that LBody would be mandated (and Lbl remain optional) for list item content.
HTH!
Duff.
> On Aug 19, 2016, at 18:46, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Patrick L wrote: < Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would violate? >
>
> Neither WCAG or PDF/UA mention this situation one way or the other. They reference only normal bulleted and numbered lists.
>
> Since HTML coding doesn't specifically tag the actual bullet or number character, it's probably OK to not have a bullet or number character itself. The content will be understandable without them. Example:
>
> In HTML
> <UL>
> <LI>
> <LI>
> </UL>
>
> But with PDFs, there's only one <L> tag to apply to both ordered (numbered) or unordered (bulleted) lists. And PDF/UA standards (7.6) suggest subtags on the individual <LI> list items. Example:
>
> <L>
> <LI>
> <Lbl> bullet or number character
> <Lbody> item text
> <LI> etc.
>
> The <Lbl> tag surrounds the bullet or number character and annouces to the user the actual bullet or number.
>
> So my original question, revised for clarify, is:
> Is it compliant with WCAG and PDF/UA to not have visual (or announced) bullet or number characters in a list?
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> â â â
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
> for publishing & communication
> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
> â â â
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 6:23 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Lists without bullet or number characters
>
> On 19/08/2016 22:53, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
>> Is it compliant with WCAG and/or PDF/UA to have lists without bullet
>> characters or numbers?
>
> Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would violate?
>
> P
>
>>
>>
>> And if so, would they be tagged as:
>>
>>
>>
>> For WCAG,
>>
>> <ul>
>>
>> <li>
>>
>> <li>
>>
>> </ul>
>>
>>
>>
>> And for PDF/UA
>>
>> <L>
>>
>> <li>
>>
>> <li>
>>
>> (and without the <LBL> and <LBody> sub-tags?)
>> --Bevi Chagnon
>
>> - - -
>>
>> Bevi Chagnon | <http://www.pubcom.com/>; www.PubCom.com
>>
>> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>>
>> for publishing & communication
>>
>> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>>
>> - - -
>
> > > >
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sun, Aug 21 2016 7:54PM
Subject: Re: Lists without bullet or number characters
← Previous message | No next message
For HTML I would at least make a best practice issue under 1.3.1 when
the numbers are removed from the <ol> tag with list styling,
especially when an ordered list is the semantically appropriate
element for the information (e.g. top 5, or a list of steps in a
process).
If the list bullet is set to an image that communicates information,
and that image is presented as a CSS background image or does not have
alt text, then I would call an issue under 1.1.1.
For unordered lists I don't really see a problem with custom bullets
(or even removing the bullets) unless the bullets communicate some
type of meaning that the list semantics alone do not.
On 8/19/16, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Bevi,
>
> Certainly, PDF/UA does not require that list items have labels. That would
> be a content requirement rather than a structural / syntactical requirement,
> and PDF/UA focusses on "getting the PDF aspect of things right". It's not a
> best-practice guide for authoring, merely a bunch of rules for software
> developers.
>
> The short version: PDF 1.7 and PDF/UA-1 do not explicitly prohibit content
> as a direct child of <LI> structure elements.
>
> In practice, AT (that I'm aware of) that uses tagged PDF "understands" this
> situation by simply reading the label (if any) and body together (which is
> far from ideal, see below).
>
> FWIW, the current draft of the PDF Association's Tagged PDF Best Practice
> Guide prohibits this practice.
>
> In general, PDF/UA always requires the most semantically appropriate tag.
> For list items, there's always a "body" and usually, there's label content
> too. Since PDF/UA requires "semantically appropriate" structure elements, a
> strict reading implies that the content of a list item must *always* include
> structure elements necessary to disambiguating labels from list-bodies in
> all cases.
>
> Imagine this case:
>
> <P>
> My list of things to buy.
> <LI>
> 4 wheels.
>
> Who knows if this means item # 4 or "4 wheels"? But...
>
> <P>
> My list of things to buy.
> <LI>
> <Lbl>
> 4
> <LBody>
> wheels.
>
> and
>
> <P>
> My list of things to buy.
> <LI>
> <LBody>
> 4 wheels.
>
> are completely clear.
>
> In reviewing the current drafts of PDF 2.0 and PDF/UA-2, I agree with the
> current draft of the Best Practice Guide, and think the screws need to be
> tightened on this one. IE, that LBody would be mandated (and Lbl remain
> optional) for list item content.
>
> HTH!
>
> Duff.
>
>
>
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 18:46, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Patrick L wrote: < Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would
>> violate? >
>>
>> Neither WCAG or PDF/UA mention this situation one way or the other. They
>> reference only normal bulleted and numbered lists.
>>
>> Since HTML coding doesn't specifically tag the actual bullet or number
>> character, it's probably OK to not have a bullet or number character
>> itself. The content will be understandable without them. Example:
>>
>> In HTML
>> <UL>
>> <LI>
>> <LI>
>> </UL>
>>
>> But with PDFs, there's only one <L> tag to apply to both ordered
>> (numbered) or unordered (bulleted) lists. And PDF/UA standards (7.6)
>> suggest subtags on the individual <LI> list items. Example:
>>
>> <L>
>> <LI>
>> <Lbl> bullet or number character
>> <Lbody> item text
>> <LI> etc.
>>
>> The <Lbl> tag surrounds the bullet or number character and annouces to the
>> user the actual bullet or number.
>>
>> So my original question, revised for clarify, is:
>> Is it compliant with WCAG and PDF/UA to not have visual (or announced)
>> bullet or number characters in a list?
>>
>> --Bevi Chagnon
>>
>> â â â
>> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
>> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>> for publishing & communication
>> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>> â â â
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
>> Of Patrick H. Lauke
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 6:23 PM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Lists without bullet or number characters
>>
>> On 19/08/2016 22:53, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
>>> Is it compliant with WCAG and/or PDF/UA to have lists without bullet
>>> characters or numbers?
>>
>> Why wouldn't it? What SC do you think this would violate?
>>
>> P
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And if so, would they be tagged as:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For WCAG,
>>>
>>> <ul>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> </ul>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And for PDF/UA
>>>
>>> <L>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> <li>
>>>
>>> (and without the <LBL> and <LBody> sub-tags?)
>>> --Bevi Chagnon
>>
>>> - - -
>>>
>>> Bevi Chagnon | <http://www.pubcom.com/>; www.PubCom.com
>>>
>>> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
>>>
>>> for publishing & communication
>>>
>>> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
>>>
>>> - - -
>>
>> >> >> >> >
> > > > >
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.