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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 2:14AM
Subject: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
No previous message | Next message →

Folks,
Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone would
shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.

Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.

Read a similar thing in this blog
http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..

Thanks
-Nawaz

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 2:23AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

On 06/10/2016 09:14, Maraikayar Prem Nawaz wrote:
> Folks,
> Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone would
> shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.

You mean actually shake/vibrate, or just showing an animation or the
form shaking?

In any case, if that (either the physical vibration, or the
on-screen/animated vibration) is the only indication of an error, then
no that's not sufficient (e.g. for people who have a tablet mounted on a
stand and can't therefore feel the vibration, for screen reader users
who can't obviously perceive the animated shake).

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Maxability Accessibility for all
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 4:35AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

+1 to Patric, how would a screen reader user know the vibration is result
of an invalid input. I would fail primarily under 3.3.1 Error
identification. I can support with 1.3.2 sensory characteristics though
vibration is not directly mentioned here (shape, size, visual location and
orientation). May be this is a great input to W3C mobile TF.


Thanks & Regards
Rakesh

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 06/10/2016 09:14, Maraikayar Prem Nawaz wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>> Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone would
>> shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.
>>
>
> You mean actually shake/vibrate, or just showing an animation or the form
> shaking?
>
> In any case, if that (either the physical vibration, or the
> on-screen/animated vibration) is the only indication of an error, then no
> that's not sufficient (e.g. for people who have a tablet mounted on a stand
> and can't therefore feel the vibration, for screen reader users who can't
> obviously perceive the animated shake).
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>
> > > > >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 5:18AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

Arguably - if there's no programmatic indication that there are errors,
this would also fail 4.1.2.

I wouldn't say this is "mobile" specific. While it is true that a
vibration motor (for physical vibration) is currently only common on
phones/tablets, there is no reason to believe this will remain that way
(e.g. Macbooks with new-style trackpad already use "taptic feedback" -
read: some form of solenoid/motor - to physically convey a "click"). And
of course, if we're talking about a purely visual/animation "shake",
this will be problematic for desktop and mobile users alike.

In short, I believe this scenario is already covered sufficiently in
WCAG 2.0 (though admittedly it may require some subtle interpretation of
the current failures like 4.1.2).

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: JP Jamous
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 7:24AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

1. What is the app? I ask because I experienced it with Youtube app. However, voiceover did speak immediately the reason why the vibration took place.
2. Ensure that this is not a setting inside the app itself. Different apps can set their own ways of alerting the user.
3. If you are using iOS 10, keep in mind that it still has lots of bugs as far as accessibility. I have no idea how the heck they released it when aria-describedby and labeledby were not working in Safari.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 3:15 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry

Folks,
Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone would shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.

Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.

Read a similar thing in this blog
http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..

Thanks
-Nawaz

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 7:30AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

I have experienced tis on iOS 10 when myfingerprint rader does not
detect my thumb correctly.
I just get a vibration not a "try again" message.
Usually I get both, but there are definite instances where I only got
the vibration.


On 10/6/16, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> 1. What is the app? I ask because I experienced it with Youtube app.
> However, voiceover did speak immediately the reason why the vibration took
> place.
> 2. Ensure that this is not a setting inside the app itself. Different apps
> can set their own ways of alerting the user.
> 3. If you are using iOS 10, keep in mind that it still has lots of bugs as
> far as accessibility. I have no idea how the heck they released it when
> aria-describedby and labeledby were not working in Safari.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 3:15 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
>
> Folks,
> Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone would
> shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.
>
> Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.
>
> Read a similar thing in this blog
> http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..
>
> Thanks
> -Nawaz
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: JP Jamous
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 7:44AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

I guess at that point your phone doesn't feel like talking to you. LOL


Just kidding.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 8:31 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry

I have experienced tis on iOS 10 when myfingerprint rader does not detect my thumb correctly.
I just get a vibration not a "try again" message.
Usually I get both, but there are definite instances where I only got the vibration.


On 10/6/16, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> 1. What is the app? I ask because I experienced it with Youtube app.
> However, voiceover did speak immediately the reason why the vibration
> took place.
> 2. Ensure that this is not a setting inside the app itself. Different
> apps can set their own ways of alerting the user.
> 3. If you are using iOS 10, keep in mind that it still has lots of
> bugs as far as accessibility. I have no idea how the heck they
> released it when aria-describedby and labeledby were not working in Safari.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 3:15 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
>
> Folks,
> Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone
> would shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.
>
> Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.
>
> Read a similar thing in this blog
> http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..
>
> Thanks
> -Nawaz
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
Date: Fri, Oct 07 2016 3:22AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you team.

Had an argument with the developer, where the developer said, "May be the
screen reader user already know that this an error, and this is an well
recognized error pattern".
Yes vibration was the only way to indicate error.

I didn't think about this scenario "for people who have a tablet mounted on
a stand and can't therefore feel the vibration". Thanks Patrick :-)

Regards
-Nawaz


On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 7:14 PM, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I guess at that point your phone doesn't feel like talking to you. LOL
>
>
> Just kidding.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 8:31 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
>
> I have experienced tis on iOS 10 when myfingerprint rader does not detect
> my thumb correctly.
> I just get a vibration not a "try again" message.
> Usually I get both, but there are definite instances where I only got the
> vibration.
>
>
> On 10/6/16, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > 1. What is the app? I ask because I experienced it with Youtube app.
> > However, voiceover did speak immediately the reason why the vibration
> > took place.
> > 2. Ensure that this is not a setting inside the app itself. Different
> > apps can set their own ways of alerting the user.
> > 3. If you are using iOS 10, keep in mind that it still has lots of
> > bugs as far as accessibility. I have no idea how the heck they
> > released it when aria-describedby and labeledby were not working in
> Safari.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
> > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 3:15 AM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
> >
> > Folks,
> > Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone
> > would shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.
> >
> > Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.
> >
> > Read a similar thing in this blog
> > http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Nawaz
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >

From: Maxability Accessibility for all
Date: Sat, Oct 08 2016 1:08AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Nawaz,

I don't think vibration of the phone is an identifiable error pattern for
screen reader users. Having it the only notification will harm them.


On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Maraikayar Prem Nawaz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Thank you team.
>
> Had an argument with the developer, where the developer said, "May be the
> screen reader user already know that this an error, and this is an well
> recognized error pattern".
> Yes vibration was the only way to indicate error.
>
> I didn't think about this scenario "for people who have a tablet mounted on
> a stand and can't therefore feel the vibration". Thanks Patrick :-)
>
> Regards
> -Nawaz
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 7:14 PM, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I guess at that point your phone doesn't feel like talking to you. LOL
> >
> >
> > Just kidding.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 8:31 AM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
> >
> > I have experienced tis on iOS 10 when myfingerprint rader does not detect
> > my thumb correctly.
> > I just get a vibration not a "try again" message.
> > Usually I get both, but there are definite instances where I only got the
> > vibration.
> >
> >
> > On 10/6/16, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > 1. What is the app? I ask because I experienced it with Youtube app.
> > > However, voiceover did speak immediately the reason why the vibration
> > > took place.
> > > 2. Ensure that this is not a setting inside the app itself. Different
> > > apps can set their own ways of alerting the user.
> > > 3. If you are using iOS 10, keep in mind that it still has lots of
> > > bugs as far as accessibility. I have no idea how the heck they
> > > released it when aria-describedby and labeledby were not working in
> > Safari.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > Behalf Of Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 3:15 AM
> > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > Subject: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
> > >
> > > Folks,
> > > Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone
> > > would shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.
> > >
> > > Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.
> > >
> > > Read a similar thing in this blog
> > > http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Nawaz
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: John Foliot
Date: Sat, Oct 08 2016 8:04AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi All,

Good discussion. While right now this is discussing what I presume is a
native app on iOS, the W3C is currently working on a Vibration API (Second
Edition) (https://w3c.github.io/vibration/) so that web developers could
recreate this feature in their web-apps, and the question did come up about
accessibility considerations for this at the APA (
https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/).

As others have noted, there really isn't a direct WCAG Success Criteria
today that addresses (with any specificity) this scenario, and it is likely
a good candidate for the current effort underway on WCAG 2.1. Having only
one mode of either input, or here output, has long been a principle that
we've recognized as being inaccessible, and so while we may not have a
specific WCAG SC to point to (as Rakesh notes), I would suggest that it
would likely be covered under the Principle of Perceivable, and so if
nothing else it is failing the spirit of WCAG, even if we don't have a
specific Success Criteria to point to.

JF

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Maxability Accessibility for all <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Nawaz,
>
> I don't think vibration of the phone is an identifiable error pattern for
> screen reader users. Having it the only notification will harm them.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Maraikayar Prem Nawaz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Thank you team.
> >
> > Had an argument with the developer, where the developer said, "May be the
> > screen reader user already know that this an error, and this is an well
> > recognized error pattern".
> > Yes vibration was the only way to indicate error.
> >
> > I didn't think about this scenario "for people who have a tablet mounted
> on
> > a stand and can't therefore feel the vibration". Thanks Patrick :-)
> >
> > Regards
> > -Nawaz
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 7:14 PM, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > I guess at that point your phone doesn't feel like talking to you. LOL
> > >
> > >
> > > Just kidding.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 8:31 AM
> > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
> > >
> > > I have experienced tis on iOS 10 when myfingerprint rader does not
> detect
> > > my thumb correctly.
> > > I just get a vibration not a "try again" message.
> > > Usually I get both, but there are definite instances where I only got
> the
> > > vibration.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 10/6/16, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > > 1. What is the app? I ask because I experienced it with Youtube app.
> > > > However, voiceover did speak immediately the reason why the vibration
> > > > took place.
> > > > 2. Ensure that this is not a setting inside the app itself. Different
> > > > apps can set their own ways of alerting the user.
> > > > 3. If you are using iOS 10, keep in mind that it still has lots of
> > > > bugs as far as accessibility. I have no idea how the heck they
> > > > released it when aria-describedby and labeledby were not working in
> > > Safari.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > > > Behalf Of Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 3:15 AM
> > > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > Subject: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
> > > >
> > > > Folks,
> > > > Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where phone
> > > > would shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.
> > > >
> > > > Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.
> > > >
> > > > Read a similar thing in this blog
> > > > http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > > -Nawaz
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > > > > archives
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >



--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: JP Jamous
Date: Sat, Oct 08 2016 8:50AM
Subject: Re: Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
← Previous message | No next message

FYI, I got the iPhone 7 Plus for my wife yesterday. It has that 3D digital touch, meaning when you press the menu button or the screen you feel it bending under your finger like you just pressed on a sand bag or a stress ball.

I also noticed that vibration is a standard of iPhone 7. So when you press the menu button it activates voiceover and vibrates as well.

Just mentioning this to alert you that some app manufacturers are probably doing this to provide that 3D touch experience. I do agree with all of you that it has 0 to do with error alertness. That should be either by voiceover through ARIA or some noise. However, it could come handy if someone has blindness and some hearing loss as the vibration can be an additional sign of alertness.

We all know though that for app manufacturers, for the most part, that is not their concern at all. They just want to provide that 3D touch for users period.

I thought, I'd give you folks a head's up so you know.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Maxability Accessibility for all
Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2016 2:08 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry

Hi Nawaz,

I don't think vibration of the phone is an identifiable error pattern for screen reader users. Having it the only notification will harm them.


On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Maraikayar Prem Nawaz < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Thank you team.
>
> Had an argument with the developer, where the developer said, "May be
> the screen reader user already know that this an error, and this is an
> well recognized error pattern".
> Yes vibration was the only way to indicate error.
>
> I didn't think about this scenario "for people who have a tablet
> mounted on a stand and can't therefore feel the vibration". Thanks
> Patrick :-)
>
> Regards
> -Nawaz
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 7:14 PM, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > I guess at that point your phone doesn't feel like talking to you.
> > LOL
> >
> >
> > Just kidding.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> > Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 8:31 AM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
> >
> > I have experienced tis on iOS 10 when myfingerprint rader does not
> > detect my thumb correctly.
> > I just get a vibration not a "try again" message.
> > Usually I get both, but there are definite instances where I only
> > got the vibration.
> >
> >
> > On 10/6/16, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > 1. What is the app? I ask because I experienced it with Youtube app.
> > > However, voiceover did speak immediately the reason why the
> > > vibration took place.
> > > 2. Ensure that this is not a setting inside the app itself.
> > > Different apps can set their own ways of alerting the user.
> > > 3. If you are using iOS 10, keep in mind that it still has lots of
> > > bugs as far as accessibility. I have no idea how the heck they
> > > released it when aria-describedby and labeledby were not working
> > > in
> > Safari.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> > > On Behalf Of Maraikayar Prem Nawaz
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 3:15 AM
> > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > Subject: [WebAIM] Vibrating phone on invalid input entry
> > >
> > > Folks,
> > > Discovered a error pattern on one of the apps for iPhone where
> > > phone would shake on invalid input while nothing is announced by voiceover.
> > >
> > > Is this is a correct pattern for invalid input.
> > >
> > > Read a similar thing in this blog
> > > http://babich.biz/how-to-use-animation-to-improve-ux/ ..
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -Nawaz
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >