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Thread: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?

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Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 3:24AM
Subject: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
No previous message | Next message →

Hello,
I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind
creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of
this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and
their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can
you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy
to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted
person is going to touch it.
What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This
means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file,
they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is
going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that
are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with
AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to
sighted users.

I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses are
not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with
the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good and
others don't do front-end.
But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people
and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is
distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or
clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their
colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.

I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for
making content accessible to sighted users?
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

From: Maxability Accessibility for all
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 4:44AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Brandon,

I totally agree with you on the pain a blind front-designer have while
developing web pages. I myself being a blind developer fall into that ache
quite oftern. However for Word and excel I try to play a safe game. Eg:
After writing the entire document, I will start giving the font-size,
color, alignment etc depending on the hierarchy of the content. End of the
task I have to rely on sighted to double sure the visual changes take
effect.
A primary test can be still done using the NVDA command insert + f that
speaks the color, font size and the style of the word selected.

Looking to hear from others too.




On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
> I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind
> creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of
> this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and
> their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can
> you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy
> to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted
> person is going to touch it.
> What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
> design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This
> means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file,
> they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is
> going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that
> are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
> accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with
> AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to
> sighted users.
>
> I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses are
> not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with
> the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good and
> others don't do front-end.
> But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people
> and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is
> distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
> templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or
> clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their
> colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.
>
> I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for
> making content accessible to sighted users?
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > >

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 6:30AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Along time ago I taught both a community college course in WordPerfect (see, long time ago) and a course for people who were blind or visually disabled on how to use WordPerfect. The final project for both groups was to create a newsletter complete with masthead, images (there was no Alt Text back then), columns and so forth...everything a newsletter should have.

When you put the newsletters from both groups side by side you couldn't tell who did or didn't have a disability.

I taught the principles of good design and provided keyboard commands and information on colour, colour contrast, concepts of newsletters...everything someone would need to create a well structured newsletter.

For those who were blind or who had colour deficits, we worked collaboratively and the "rule" was that you got someone to check over your work to make sure the colours were good and the layout was what you described to them....but if things were off, it was up to you, not the person reviewing your work for those types of thing, to fix it.

This worked well in both classes and I see no reason that, when taught good design and accessible document design and how to use the authoring environment and their adaptive technology that someone who is blind or visually disabled cannot create accessible digital content and environments like anyone else. Work should be reviewed for the more esthetic things like colour contrast and anything that looks off but the person who creates the content/software should be the one to remediate it because then they learn how to make better content/software.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: October 6, 2016 5:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?

Hello,
I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted person is going to touch it.
What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file, they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to sighted users.

I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses are not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good and others don't do front-end.
But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.

I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for making content accessible to sighted users?
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

From: JP Jamous
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 7:17AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with Karen that a blind individual should be able to write a visually appealing document. I do recommend certain things though.

1. If the person was born blind and has no sense of colors, the person cannot be blamed for that. I was not born blind and had full vision for the first 12 years of my life. However, I still run the colors by someone sighted to ensure they appeal to the reader's eye. Even that part can be tricky as some sighted people can have their own favorite colors and like to stick with those all the time. The most important thing is to know your audience. For example, when I am working with Executives, I am strictly black font on a white background. They could care less about colors. Just bold the information they want or throw a bullet before it. That is sufficient. If the audience is younger managers, I might add blue, red and other colors.

2. With all of the tools that a screen reader offers, there is no reason why a blind person should not be able to create a nicely looking document. I have written documents that were 65 pages in length and have kept the right font, bullets, bold and other attributes.

3. I make my own resume with MSWord and after I am done I run it by my sighted wife. Mostly, to ensure that visually things align properly since JAWS screws that up sometimes. She even has to use a ruler to check as even Word does not give her an accurate measurement.

So as you see, for the most part a blind individual can create a nicely written document. Just follow a sequence that works for you to keep track of your changes.

I write at first and do not concern myself with spelling, or font stuff. As I am done I review to ensure the document is written properly without any spelling errors and with proper grammar. After That, I worry about the styling part of it.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Karlen Communications
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 7:30 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?

Along time ago I taught both a community college course in WordPerfect (see, long time ago) and a course for people who were blind or visually disabled on how to use WordPerfect. The final project for both groups was to create a newsletter complete with masthead, images (there was no Alt Text back then), columns and so forth...everything a newsletter should have.

When you put the newsletters from both groups side by side you couldn't tell who did or didn't have a disability.

I taught the principles of good design and provided keyboard commands and information on colour, colour contrast, concepts of newsletters...everything someone would need to create a well structured newsletter.

For those who were blind or who had colour deficits, we worked collaboratively and the "rule" was that you got someone to check over your work to make sure the colours were good and the layout was what you described to them....but if things were off, it was up to you, not the person reviewing your work for those types of thing, to fix it.

This worked well in both classes and I see no reason that, when taught good design and accessible document design and how to use the authoring environment and their adaptive technology that someone who is blind or visually disabled cannot create accessible digital content and environments like anyone else. Work should be reviewed for the more esthetic things like colour contrast and anything that looks off but the person who creates the content/software should be the one to remediate it because then they learn how to make better content/software.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: October 6, 2016 5:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?

Hello,
I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted person is going to touch it.
What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file, they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to sighted users.

I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses are not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good and others don't do front-end.
But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.

I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for making content accessible to sighted users?
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 7:39AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
This is exactly what I am looking for. What is "good design"? Are there
things we should be asking companies such as Google or Microsoft to do that
will promote "good design"?
I know of no classes or books that review "good design" in a way that makes
sense to blind people.
I think the first step is to look at what "good design" is when it comes to
graphic design and GUIs. Then take that and translate it into a step by
step checklist that a blind person can follow to make their content
accessible to sighted users.
It is exactly the same process that has happened for web content
accessibility. There are accessibility checkers and whatnot that will give
one a basic accessibility check, but if one wants something to really pop,
they need help. But I would say that many sighted people get their content
to an "OK" level and anything above that they need a graphic designer or
something like that.
It should be possible to create something that checks a document for an
"OK" level of accessibility for sighted users just as there is for screen
reader users.

The current problem with insert+F to check the formatting is: what is
"aerial"? Is it a mermaid looking text? How big is 10 PT? Is very dark gray
something that contrasts well with white (I'm guessing so as a dark should
contrast with a light)?
Evidently it works for someone as this is what Gmail has as their default
in their online email editor.

But in my experience, I have been told that 11-14 pt font and Times New
Roman are what sighted people like. Why did Gmail choose 10 PT and Ariel?
Also, why use dark gray on white vs black on white? I thought gray and
white blended together?

I'm sure that an intro to graphics design class would answer some of these
questions, but as a blind person, I would really feel strange showing up to
an intro to graphic design class. I also don't think the tools are
accessible either.

But how did WCAG get developed? Did some disabled people come together and
verbalize what "good design" was for them, kind of like what designers and
artists do? Or was it something else?
It would be very nice if there was a WCAG for visual content as well.
There are guidelines in WCAG like in 1.4 (What is distinguishable and
contrast and how can I read it?), but I'm pretty sure it's possible to
create a document that follows WCAG that sighted users can't use.
If I put everything in 700PT with a good contrast and proper markup, would
that still follow WCAG? If I had each word in a paragraph a different size,
from 14-200, would it still pass? Or what about if the text lines were on
top of one another? How about if the spacing was visually 2 pages in
between each paragraph? Or my favorite, what if each line had a different
font?
These would all look great to a screen reader, but not so good to a sighted
person.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 5:30 AM, Karlen Communications <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Along time ago I taught both a community college course in WordPerfect
> (see, long time ago) and a course for people who were blind or visually
> disabled on how to use WordPerfect. The final project for both groups was
> to create a newsletter complete with masthead, images (there was no Alt
> Text back then), columns and so forth...everything a newsletter should have.
>
> When you put the newsletters from both groups side by side you couldn't
> tell who did or didn't have a disability.
>
> I taught the principles of good design and provided keyboard commands and
> information on colour, colour contrast, concepts of
> newsletters...everything someone would need to create a well structured
> newsletter.
>
> For those who were blind or who had colour deficits, we worked
> collaboratively and the "rule" was that you got someone to check over your
> work to make sure the colours were good and the layout was what you
> described to them....but if things were off, it was up to you, not the
> person reviewing your work for those types of thing, to fix it.
>
> This worked well in both classes and I see no reason that, when taught
> good design and accessible document design and how to use the authoring
> environment and their adaptive technology that someone who is blind or
> visually disabled cannot create accessible digital content and environments
> like anyone else. Work should be reviewed for the more esthetic things like
> colour contrast and anything that looks off but the person who creates the
> content/software should be the one to remediate it because then they learn
> how to make better content/software.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: October 6, 2016 5:24 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
>
> Hello,
> I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind
> creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of
> this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and
> their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can
> you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy
> to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted
> person is going to touch it.
> What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
> design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This
> means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file,
> they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is
> going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that
> are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
> accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with
> AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to
> sighted users.
>
> I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses
> are not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess
> with the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look
> good and others don't do front-end.
> But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people
> and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is
> distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
> templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or
> clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their
> colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.
>
> I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for
> making content accessible to sighted users?
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 7:52AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
When do you bold? What is a place where you would use red, blue or green?
Black on white is the most obvious and simple to use, and I believe making
headings is fine, but I run into the problem a lot when making powerpoints,
how much text fits? I have literally walked into a presentation with my
beautifully crafted slides and got stopped halfway through by people asking
me what bullet points I was reading or telling me that the text was cut off
on the bottom.

Granted this is something running my powerpoint past a sighted person would
solve, but not everyone has their own sighted person to run things by. What
about if the sighted person doesn't understand what needs to be done? What
about if the sighted person you run things by argues with the sighted
person who gave you directions before? Who is right? All I know is to "make
it look good".
And today, I was working on a spreadsheet and I was told to make the text
color different based on different numbers. So I did, but when I ran it by
a sighted person, they told me that one cell was already a color I was
using as one of the conditional formatters. So what do I do then? The
person I was submitting the document to was the one who made that color,
and because I didn't see the document, I was not able to ask about that one
cell in particular. Now I have to wait till my next meeting with the person
I'm doing that excel file for to ask them this silly question. It is
holding up the whole project because this is the template, so if one thing
is wrong on this one, if I start filling in information in and the person
wants to change, I've got to go through every document and change this one
small thing that takes me a while to do with the keyboard.
But it is seemingly silly things like this that catch me up all the time.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 6:17 AM, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I agree with Karen that a blind individual should be able to write a
> visually appealing document. I do recommend certain things though.
>
> 1. If the person was born blind and has no sense of colors, the person
> cannot be blamed for that. I was not born blind and had full vision for the
> first 12 years of my life. However, I still run the colors by someone
> sighted to ensure they appeal to the reader's eye. Even that part can be
> tricky as some sighted people can have their own favorite colors and like
> to stick with those all the time. The most important thing is to know your
> audience. For example, when I am working with Executives, I am strictly
> black font on a white background. They could care less about colors. Just
> bold the information they want or throw a bullet before it. That is
> sufficient. If the audience is younger managers, I might add blue, red and
> other colors.
>
> 2. With all of the tools that a screen reader offers, there is no reason
> why a blind person should not be able to create a nicely looking document.
> I have written documents that were 65 pages in length and have kept the
> right font, bullets, bold and other attributes.
>
> 3. I make my own resume with MSWord and after I am done I run it by my
> sighted wife. Mostly, to ensure that visually things align properly since
> JAWS screws that up sometimes. She even has to use a ruler to check as even
> Word does not give her an accurate measurement.
>
> So as you see, for the most part a blind individual can create a nicely
> written document. Just follow a sequence that works for you to keep track
> of your changes.
>
> I write at first and do not concern myself with spelling, or font stuff.
> As I am done I review to ensure the document is written properly without
> any spelling errors and with proper grammar. After That, I worry about the
> styling part of it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Karlen Communications
> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 7:30 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
>
> Along time ago I taught both a community college course in WordPerfect
> (see, long time ago) and a course for people who were blind or visually
> disabled on how to use WordPerfect. The final project for both groups was
> to create a newsletter complete with masthead, images (there was no Alt
> Text back then), columns and so forth...everything a newsletter should have.
>
> When you put the newsletters from both groups side by side you couldn't
> tell who did or didn't have a disability.
>
> I taught the principles of good design and provided keyboard commands and
> information on colour, colour contrast, concepts of
> newsletters...everything someone would need to create a well structured
> newsletter.
>
> For those who were blind or who had colour deficits, we worked
> collaboratively and the "rule" was that you got someone to check over your
> work to make sure the colours were good and the layout was what you
> described to them....but if things were off, it was up to you, not the
> person reviewing your work for those types of thing, to fix it.
>
> This worked well in both classes and I see no reason that, when taught
> good design and accessible document design and how to use the authoring
> environment and their adaptive technology that someone who is blind or
> visually disabled cannot create accessible digital content and environments
> like anyone else. Work should be reviewed for the more esthetic things like
> colour contrast and anything that looks off but the person who creates the
> content/software should be the one to remediate it because then they learn
> how to make better content/software.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: October 6, 2016 5:24 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
>
> Hello,
> I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind
> creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of
> this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and
> their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can
> you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy
> to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted
> person is going to touch it.
> What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
> design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This
> means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file,
> they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is
> going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that
> are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
> accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with
> AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to
> sighted users.
>
> I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses
> are not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess
> with the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look
> good and others don't do front-end.
> But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people
> and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is
> distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
> templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or
> clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their
> colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.
>
> I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for
> making content accessible to sighted users?
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >

From: Jonathan C. Cohn
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 8:17AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

The NIB had a class on being successful in the workplace last year. I don't know ifadditional classes were formed, but the primary goal was on creating office documents using excel for analysis and word to create distribution ready reports.
JAWS has a text analysis tool that helps find some issues you mention.

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn

> On Oct 6, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Along time ago I taught both a community college course in WordPerfect (see, long time ago) and a course for people who were blind or visually disabled on how to use WordPerfect. The final project for both groups was to create a newsletter complete with masthead, images (there was no Alt Text back then), columns and so forth...everything a newsletter should have.
>
> When you put the newsletters from both groups side by side you couldn't tell who did or didn't have a disability.
>
> I taught the principles of good design and provided keyboard commands and information on colour, colour contrast, concepts of newsletters...everything someone would need to create a well structured newsletter.
>
> For those who were blind or who had colour deficits, we worked collaboratively and the "rule" was that you got someone to check over your work to make sure the colours were good and the layout was what you described to them....but if things were off, it was up to you, not the person reviewing your work for those types of thing, to fix it.
>
> This worked well in both classes and I see no reason that, when taught good design and accessible document design and how to use the authoring environment and their adaptive technology that someone who is blind or visually disabled cannot create accessible digital content and environments like anyone else. Work should be reviewed for the more esthetic things like colour contrast and anything that looks off but the person who creates the content/software should be the one to remediate it because then they learn how to make better content/software.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: October 6, 2016 5:24 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
>
> Hello,
> I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted person is going to touch it.
> What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file, they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to sighted users.
>
> I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses are not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good and others don't do front-end.
> But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.
>
> I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for making content accessible to sighted users?
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>; > > >
> > > >

From: JP Jamous
Date: Thu, Oct 06 2016 8:42AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Bryan,

Below is my response.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 8:52 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?

Hello,
When do you bold?
When the text is important to the user to notice like a title or a topic to be discussed. I also bold if the room is large and folks in the back need to see what is on the overhead.

What is a place where you would use red, blue or green?
I use red to identify error or critical issues. Example, "Image links conflict with SEO"
I use blue for headings in a document to draw the eye to them since the rest of the document would be black on white.
I use green if I want to show that we got the green light to go on a project. For example, "The CTO approved the project implementation."

Black on white is the most obvious and simple to use, and I believe making headings is fine, but I run into the problem a lot when making powerpoints, how much text fits? I have literally walked into a presentation with my beautifully crafted slides and got stopped halfway through by people asking me what bullet points I was reading or telling me that the text was cut off on the bottom.
I hate Powerpoint to answer your question. In college and now at a corporate where I am the only blind person, I don't use Powerpoint. My notes are in my head and the way I present the crowd, I ensure that the focus is on me. I have a strong charisma that allows me to be in the spotlight. That has served me well.
To answer your question though, I hand the Powerpoint presentation to someone that is sighted to do it. I even know sighted folks that hate powerpoint too.

Granted this is something running my powerpoint past a sighted person would solve, but not everyone has their own sighted person to run things by. What about if the sighted person doesn't understand what needs to be done? What about if the sighted person you run things by argues with the sighted person who gave you directions before? Who is right? All I know is to "make it look good".

Bryan,

That is why I tend to use sighted help if I can and the first think I state to the person. "Does it look professional for this type of audience?" If I notice that the sighed person is giving me his or her personal opinion about the colors, like my wife does because she loves blue, I stop that person immediately. I restate, "I don't care what you think. Does it look professional or not? Keep it simple stupid." This isn't an art class. It is a presentation.

And today, I was working on a spreadsheet and I was told to make the text color different based on different numbers. So I did, but when I ran it by a sighted person, they told me that one cell was already a color I was using as one of the conditional formatters. So what do I do then? The person I was submitting the document to was the one who made that color, and because I didn't see the document, I was not able to ask about that one cell in particular. Now I have to wait till my next meeting with the person I'm doing that excel file for to ask them this silly question. It is holding up the whole project because this is the template, so if one thing is wrong on this one, if I start filling in information in and the person wants to change, I've got to go through every document and change this one small thing that takes me a while to do with the keyboard.
But it is seemingly silly things like this that catch me up all the time.

Stick to a standard template and enforce it. Sighted people can be anal and take it from one that was sighted. Too much is counterproductive.

When I had my own business, I had customers asking me to make beautiful business cards for them that were busy. I used to always say, I would make you what you want. The possibilities are endless. However, do you want something that sells or that shows how artistic my graphic designer can be?

Sometimes, you have to create a boundary for your work and stick by it. Not because you are a jerk, but because different people have different opinions. If you follow what each person says, you'd make your life a nightmare and work won't get done at the proper time.

I always say, KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. Sighted people are bombarded with ads and information on minute bases. How do you make your information stand out amongst all that noise? That's what one of my marketing professors asked one. The answer was, KISS.

Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 6:17 AM, JP Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I agree with Karen that a blind individual should be able to write a
> visually appealing document. I do recommend certain things though.
>
> 1. If the person was born blind and has no sense of colors, the person
> cannot be blamed for that. I was not born blind and had full vision
> for the first 12 years of my life. However, I still run the colors by
> someone sighted to ensure they appeal to the reader's eye. Even that
> part can be tricky as some sighted people can have their own favorite
> colors and like to stick with those all the time. The most important
> thing is to know your audience. For example, when I am working with
> Executives, I am strictly black font on a white background. They could
> care less about colors. Just bold the information they want or throw a
> bullet before it. That is sufficient. If the audience is younger
> managers, I might add blue, red and other colors.
>
> 2. With all of the tools that a screen reader offers, there is no
> reason why a blind person should not be able to create a nicely looking document.
> I have written documents that were 65 pages in length and have kept
> the right font, bullets, bold and other attributes.
>
> 3. I make my own resume with MSWord and after I am done I run it by my
> sighted wife. Mostly, to ensure that visually things align properly
> since JAWS screws that up sometimes. She even has to use a ruler to
> check as even Word does not give her an accurate measurement.
>
> So as you see, for the most part a blind individual can create a
> nicely written document. Just follow a sequence that works for you to
> keep track of your changes.
>
> I write at first and do not concern myself with spelling, or font stuff.
> As I am done I review to ensure the document is written properly
> without any spelling errors and with proper grammar. After That, I
> worry about the styling part of it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Karlen Communications
> Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2016 7:30 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
>
> Along time ago I taught both a community college course in WordPerfect
> (see, long time ago) and a course for people who were blind or
> visually disabled on how to use WordPerfect. The final project for
> both groups was to create a newsletter complete with masthead, images
> (there was no Alt Text back then), columns and so forth...everything a newsletter should have.
>
> When you put the newsletters from both groups side by side you
> couldn't tell who did or didn't have a disability.
>
> I taught the principles of good design and provided keyboard commands
> and information on colour, colour contrast, concepts of
> newsletters...everything someone would need to create a well
> structured newsletter.
>
> For those who were blind or who had colour deficits, we worked
> collaboratively and the "rule" was that you got someone to check over
> your work to make sure the colours were good and the layout was what
> you described to them....but if things were off, it was up to you, not
> the person reviewing your work for those types of thing, to fix it.
>
> This worked well in both classes and I see no reason that, when taught
> good design and accessible document design and how to use the
> authoring environment and their adaptive technology that someone who
> is blind or visually disabled cannot create accessible digital content
> and environments like anyone else. Work should be reviewed for the
> more esthetic things like colour contrast and anything that looks off
> but the person who creates the content/software should be the one to
> remediate it because then they learn how to make better content/software.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> Sent: October 6, 2016 5:24 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
>
> Hello,
> I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how
> blind creators and designers can make their content visually
> appealing? Most of this has to do with the fact blind people have no
> idea what looks good and their screen reader doesn't have a setting
> that says "Looks good" or "Can you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and
> easy to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then
> no sighted person is going to touch it.
> What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
> design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good.
> This means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or
> Excel file, they can make their content, but the first sighted person
> who reads it is going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts,
> the extra spaces that are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
> accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people
> with AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content
> accessible to sighted users.
>
> I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the
> responses are not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and
> just don't mess with the defaults, some have a sighted designer who
> makes the site look good and others don't do front-end.
> But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind
> people and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a
> document that is distributed to all the employees, make promotional
> materials, create templates for others to use or make powerpoints to
> present to bosses or clients, there is going to be no trust, either by
> the blind person or their colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.
>
> I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines
> for making content accessible to sighted users?
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: whitneyq
Date: Fri, Oct 07 2016 7:01PM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Surely you are not applying text display characteristics individually. You should be using styles, right.
Everywhere I've worked we have made templates that include our settings for a robust set of styles.
This is not primarily for a11y but for branding and consistency. 
Wouldn't the same thing hold true for Web using css?

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Maxability Accessibility for all < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Date: 10/6/16 6:44 AM (GMT-05:00) To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
Hi Brandon,

I totally agree with you   on the pain a blind front-designer have while
developing web pages. I myself being a blind developer fall into that ache
quite oftern. However for Word and excel I try to play a safe game. Eg:
After writing the entire document, I will start giving the font-size,
color, alignment etc depending on the hierarchy of the content. End of the
task I have to rely on sighted to double sure the visual changes take
effect.
A primary test can be still done using the NVDA command insert + f that
speaks the color, font size and the style of the word selected.

Looking to hear from others too.




On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
> I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind
> creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of
> this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good and
> their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can
> you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy
> to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no sighted
> person is going to touch it.
> What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
> design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This
> means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel file,
> they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is
> going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces that
> are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
> accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with
> AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to
> sighted users.
>
> I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses are
> not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with
> the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good and
> others don't do front-end.
> But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people
> and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that is
> distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
> templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or
> clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or their
> colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without help.
>
> I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for
> making content accessible to sighted users?
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Sat, Oct 08 2016 1:28AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
Of corse one uses styles (It is rather hard not to). It just becomes:
What styles do I use? (Should links, headings and paragraphs be orange,
silver and blue respectively over a black body? and what RGB values
exactly?)
Where do I place text so it is not covering pictures or vice versa?
How do I layout a site that sighted people like to look at? (For example,
I'm pretty sure sighted people like to see everything on one screen and so
they don't need to scroll).
How do I know how much text fits on one screen?

For MS Word, yes, they do use specific styling for each word. So if I copy
and paste something, then it will show up in the same style as the place I
pasted it from.

For powerpoints and excel sheets, I can type a whole essay and it's the
same for me as one word. In fact, this is how I often take notes. (Note
that in Excel now, I get the warning "cropped" or "overflowing" which means
something, but when you type a "2" and get the "cropped" error, it is a
little confusing).
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:01 PM, whitneyq < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>
> Surely you are not applying text display characteristics individually. You
> should be using styles, right.
> Everywhere I've worked we have made templates that include our settings
> for a robust set of styles.
> This is not primarily for a11y but for branding and consistency.
> Wouldn't the same thing hold true for Web using css?
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> -------- Original message --------From: Maxability Accessibility for all <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Date: 10/6/16 6:44 AM (GMT-05:00) To:
> WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re:
> [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
> Hi Brandon,
>
> I totally agree with you on the pain a blind front-designer have while
> developing web pages. I myself being a blind developer fall into that ache
> quite oftern. However for Word and excel I try to play a safe game. Eg:
> After writing the entire document, I will start giving the font-size,
> color, alignment etc depending on the hierarchy of the content. End of the
> task I have to rely on sighted to double sure the visual changes take
> effect.
> A primary test can be still done using the NVDA command insert + f that
> speaks the color, font size and the style of the word selected.
>
> Looking to hear from others too.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind
> > creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of
> > this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good
> and
> > their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can
> > you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> > But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy
> > to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no
> sighted
> > person is going to touch it.
> > What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
> > design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This
> > means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel
> file,
> > they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is
> > going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces
> that
> > are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> > So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
> > accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with
> > AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to
> > sighted users.
> >
> > I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses
> are
> > not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with
> > the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good
> and
> > others don't do front-end.
> > But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people
> > and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that
> is
> > distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
> > templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or
> > clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or
> their
> > colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without
> help.
> >
> > I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for
> > making content accessible to sighted users?
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >

From: chaals@yandex-team.ru
Date: Sat, Oct 08 2016 8:13AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Brandon,

This is a pretty huge question really.

Stuff like not overlapping, not making people scroll in 2 dimensions at once - which is the thing people *really* hate - even if they zoom 500%, are generally straightforward if you don't try to force too much layout. Browsers deal with the Web …

Colour schemes are a question of taste and culture, as well as accessibility, but there is a fair bit of literature about it, and I hope some of that is online in accessible form…

There are changes in aesthetics over time - I have seen at least 3 pretty different design aesthetics "dominate" the Web for a while. To be clearer, there are differences around the world, like there are in everything else.

Rather than trying to fit everything on a screen, make sure it is clearly broken up. You *can't* know how many words are a screenful, since screen size and the font size users want are both unpredictable - and change somewhat for individuals during a single day...

Overall, I would suggest you look for some forum where people talk about design, rather than about accessibility. Because there you will find people who know more about design :) Even better, engaging with those people is how you get a critical community to actually understand accessibility issues…

cheers

Sadly, my designs are pretty boring, and I don't know a design community :( Search engines should help.

Chaals

08.10.2016, 09:28, "Brandon Keith Biggs" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> Hello,
> Of corse one uses styles (It is rather hard not to). It just becomes:
> What styles do I use? (Should links, headings and paragraphs be orange,
> silver and blue respectively over a black body? and what RGB values
> exactly?)
> Where do I place text so it is not covering pictures or vice versa?
> How do I layout a site that sighted people like to look at? (For example,
> I'm pretty sure sighted people like to see everything on one screen and so
> they don't need to scroll).
> How do I know how much text fits on one screen?
>
> For MS Word, yes, they do use specific styling for each word. So if I copy
> and paste something, then it will show up in the same style as the place I
> pasted it from.
>
> For powerpoints and excel sheets, I can type a whole essay and it's the
> same for me as one word. In fact, this is how I often take notes. (Note
> that in Excel now, I get the warning "cropped" or "overflowing" which means
> something, but when you type a "2" and get the "cropped" error, it is a
> little confusing).
> Thanks,
>
> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:01 PM, whitneyq < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>>  Surely you are not applying text display characteristics individually. You
>>  should be using styles, right.
>>  Everywhere I've worked we have made templates that include our settings
>>  for a robust set of styles.
>>  This is not primarily for a11y but for branding and consistency.
>>  Wouldn't the same thing hold true for Web using css?
>>
>>  Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>>  -------- Original message --------From: Maxability Accessibility for all <
>>   = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Date: 10/6/16 6:44 AM (GMT-05:00) To:
>>  WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re:
>>  [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
>>  Hi Brandon,
>>
>>  I totally agree with you on the pain a blind front-designer have while
>>  developing web pages. I myself being a blind developer fall into that ache
>>  quite oftern. However for Word and excel I try to play a safe game. Eg:
>>  After writing the entire document, I will start giving the font-size,
>>  color, alignment etc depending on the hierarchy of the content. End of the
>>  task I have to rely on sighted to double sure the visual changes take
>>  effect.
>>  A primary test can be still done using the NVDA command insert + f that
>>  speaks the color, font size and the style of the word selected.
>>
>>  Looking to hear from others too.
>>
>>  On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs <
>>   = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>  > Hello,
>>  > I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how blind
>>  > creators and designers can make their content visually appealing? Most of
>>  > this has to do with the fact blind people have no idea what looks good
>>  and
>>  > their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or "Can
>>  > you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
>>  > But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and easy
>>  > to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good, then no
>>  sighted
>>  > person is going to touch it.
>>  > What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
>>  > design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good. This
>>  > means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or Excel
>>  file,
>>  > they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads it is
>>  > going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the extra spaces
>>  that
>>  > are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
>>  > So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
>>  > accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people with
>>  > AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content accessible to
>>  > sighted users.
>>  >
>>  > I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the responses
>>  are
>>  > not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess with
>>  > the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site look good
>>  and
>>  > others don't do front-end.
>>  > But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind people
>>  > and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a document that
>>  is
>>  > distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
>>  > templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses or
>>  > clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind person or
>>  their
>>  > colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without
>>  help.
>>  >
>>  > I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines for
>>  > making content accessible to sighted users?
>>  > Thanks,
>>  >
>>  > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>>  > >>  > >>  > >>  > >>  >
>>  >>  >>  >>  >>  >>  >>  >>  >
> > > > --
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

From: JP Jamous
Date: Sat, Oct 08 2016 8:55AM
Subject: Re: Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
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Brandon,

KISS. Do not complicate matters. Look at how ticked off we all are including sighted people by the look of the ribbon bar and Windows 10. My sighted sister-in-law returned her new laptop because of Windows 10.

Just keep things simple, because most sighted users do not like too much on their screen at ones. In fact, the older they get the less they are drawn to that layout. It is just too complicated for their eyes.

Younger generations might like that because their eyes are young and sharp. However, older people using their eyes on daily bases tend to want to come home relax and rest their eyes. It is like us not hearing any noise, which brings tranquility to the mind.

So stick with simple styles and you'd make your life easier, presentations more professional and audience happier.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2016 2:28 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?

Hello,
Of corse one uses styles (It is rather hard not to). It just becomes:
What styles do I use? (Should links, headings and paragraphs be orange, silver and blue respectively over a black body? and what RGB values
exactly?)
Where do I place text so it is not covering pictures or vice versa?
How do I layout a site that sighted people like to look at? (For example, I'm pretty sure sighted people like to see everything on one screen and so they don't need to scroll).
How do I know how much text fits on one screen?

For MS Word, yes, they do use specific styling for each word. So if I copy and paste something, then it will show up in the same style as the place I pasted it from.

For powerpoints and excel sheets, I can type a whole essay and it's the same for me as one word. In fact, this is how I often take notes. (Note that in Excel now, I get the warning "cropped" or "overflowing" which means something, but when you type a "2" and get the "cropped" error, it is a little confusing).
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:01 PM, whitneyq < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>
> Surely you are not applying text display characteristics individually.
> You should be using styles, right.
> Everywhere I've worked we have made templates that include our
> settings for a robust set of styles.
> This is not primarily for a11y but for branding and consistency.
> Wouldn't the same thing hold true for Web using css?
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> -------- Original message --------From: Maxability Accessibility for
> all < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Date: 10/6/16 6:44 AM (GMT-05:00) To:
> WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re:
> [WebAIM] Making Content Accessible to Sighted Users?
> Hi Brandon,
>
> I totally agree with you on the pain a blind front-designer have while
> developing web pages. I myself being a blind developer fall into that
> ache quite oftern. However for Word and excel I try to play a safe game. Eg:
> After writing the entire document, I will start giving the font-size,
> color, alignment etc depending on the hierarchy of the content. End of
> the task I have to rely on sighted to double sure the visual changes
> take effect.
> A primary test can be still done using the NVDA command insert + f
> that speaks the color, font size and the style of the word selected.
>
> Looking to hear from others too.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 6, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > I am wondering if any kind of thought has ever been put towards how
> > blind creators and designers can make their content visually
> > appealing? Most of this has to do with the fact blind people have no
> > idea what looks good
> and
> > their screen reader doesn't have a setting that says "Looks good" or
> > "Can you move that element to the right because it is covering some text?"
> > But this is a huge problem because one can have the most amazing and
> > easy to use application or product, but if it doesn't look good,
> > then no
> sighted
> > person is going to touch it.
> > What this means is that if a blind programmer wishes to do front-end
> > design, they can't unless they can make something that looks good.
> > This means that if a blind person wishes to make a Word document or
> > Excel
> file,
> > they can make their content, but the first sighted person who reads
> > it is going to go crazy at all the differently sized fonts, the
> > extra spaces
> that
> > are not visible to the screen reader and different sizes of text.
> > So just as there is a checklist for creators to make their content
> > accessible to people with AT, there should be a checklist for people
> > with AT (primarily screen reader users) to make their content
> > accessible to sighted users.
> >
> > I have asked blind programmers what they currently do and the
> > responses
> are
> > not very reassuring. Some use prebuilt templates and just don't mess
> > with the defaults, some have a sighted designer who makes the site
> > look good
> and
> > others don't do front-end.
> > But this is a problem I think is really big when it comes to blind
> > people and employment. Because if a blind person needs to make a
> > document that
> is
> > distributed to all the employees, make promotional materials, create
> > templates for others to use or make powerpoints to present to bosses
> > or clients, there is going to be no trust, either by the blind
> > person or
> their
> > colleagues, that the blind person can make a usable document without
> help.
> >
> > I would like to know if anyone knows of any resources or guidelines
> > for making content accessible to sighted users?
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >