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Thread: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

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Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)

From: Anne Godlewski
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 4:07PM
Subject: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
No previous message | Next message →

Hello,

I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.

When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.

Is there a solution to this awful cycle?

Thanks,
Anne

From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 4:12PM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.

Just let the source code or DOM order of the page control the focus and reading order of content.

I’d recommend using the autofocus attribute if you want to start focus at a certain input on the page rather than using tabindex.

http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html>;
http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html>;

If you share some code or a working demo we can answer your question better.

Thanks!

Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com

> On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Anne Godlewski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>
> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>
> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>
> Thanks,
> Anne
>
> > > >

From: Anne Godlewski
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 8:01PM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

I should have specified that I'm working on a PDF, not in HTML.

Anne

On Nov 28, 2016, at 6:12 PM, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.
>
> Just let the source code or DOM order of the page control the focus and reading order of content.
>
> I’d recommend using the autofocus attribute if you want to start focus at a certain input on the page rather than using tabindex.
>
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html>;
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html>;
>
> If you share some code or a working demo we can answer your question better.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com
>
>> On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Anne Godlewski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>>
>> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>>
>> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anne
>>
>> >> >> >> >
> > > >

From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 7:32AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

You will probably need to reorder the structure tags to match your reading and tab order. This can be done through the tags pane.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 5:07 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Hello,

I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.

When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.

Is there a solution to this awful cycle?

Thanks,
Anne

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 7:34AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

>> > I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
> Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.

I think Anne is talking about PDF. There are some situations in PDF where the focus order may need to be different than the document structure order. In those specific cases it is ok. For example, say a table is used and the data table contains forms fields and headers, etc. It may be the preferred focus order to fill out all fields in column 1 first -- yet the structure order is row 1, row 2, etc. which would dictate filling out all fields in row 1 first. As long as the focus order is correct to the business logic and all fields are focusable the warning could safely be ignored in my opinion.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group 
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)

Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
Don't miss Trends in Accessibility & Electronic Documents on Wed 12/7!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:13 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.

Just let the source code or DOM order of the page control the focus and reading order of content.

I’d recommend using the autofocus attribute if you want to start focus at a certain input on the page rather than using tabindex.

http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html>;
http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html>;

If you share some code or a working demo we can answer your question better.

Thanks!

Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com

> On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Anne Godlewski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>
> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>
> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>
> Thanks,
> Anne
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: JP Jamous
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 7:45AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

I have not had the chance to do what Ann has done, but as a programmer, it is obvious why the tool is giving you errors. Jonathon is right about it. A program is dumb in the sense that it only does what it was told to do. It cannot make intelligent decisions like humans. If it does we won't need WCAG auditors.

So your issue is that you are submissive to the tool. Don't let that dumb thing confuse you and convince you that it is smarter than your brain. If you know what you are doing, you can safely ignore those errors.

My quote as a programmer to all programmers and developers, "If it works when you test it. Then, it is correct and no need to follow what your IDE tools tell you." You tested it and it worked. Do not analyze it. It ain't your job. *Smiles*.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 8:34 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

>> > I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
> Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.

I think Anne is talking about PDF. There are some situations in PDF where the focus order may need to be different than the document structure order. In those specific cases it is ok. For example, say a table is used and the data table contains forms fields and headers, etc. It may be the preferred focus order to fill out all fields in column 1 first -- yet the structure order is row 1, row 2, etc. which would dictate filling out all fields in row 1 first. As long as the focus order is correct to the business logic and all fields are focusable the warning could safely be ignored in my opinion.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)

Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Don't miss Trends in Accessibility & Electronic Documents on Wed 12/7!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:13 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.

Just let the source code or DOM order of the page control the focus and reading order of content.

I’d recommend using the autofocus attribute if you want to start focus at a certain input on the page rather than using tabindex.

http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html>;
http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html>;

If you share some code or a working demo we can answer your question better.

Thanks!

Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com

> On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Anne Godlewski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>
> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>
> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>
> Thanks,
> Anne
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Anne Godlewski
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 8:42AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, I went to the Tags pane first, and everything there is as it should be. After I correct the reading order to match the structure in the Tags pane, I get the error about tab order being inconsistent with the structure order. Perhaps Acrobat is insisting that the structure order should be different from what it is (and should be).

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC) wrote:

> You will probably need to reorder the structure tags to match your reading and tab order. This can be done through the tags pane.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator
> Texas Health and Human Services Commission
> Civil Rights Office
> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 5:07 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>
> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>
> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>
> Thanks,
> Anne
>
> > > > > > >

From: Anne Godlewski
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 8:57AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

Ha! Thanks for the laugh, JP. There seems to be no reason why Acrobat is bumping the "no" of a yes/no pair of check boxes, for example, further down the page, and then telling me that this is where that check box should be.

Is it acceptable, then, that the tab order is set as "unspecified" in such cases for those pages?

Anne

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:45 AM, JP Jamous wrote:

> I have not had the chance to do what Ann has done, but as a programmer, it is obvious why the tool is giving you errors. Jonathon is right about it. A program is dumb in the sense that it only does what it was told to do. It cannot make intelligent decisions like humans. If it does we won't need WCAG auditors.
>
> So your issue is that you are submissive to the tool. Don't let that dumb thing confuse you and convince you that it is smarter than your brain. If you know what you are doing, you can safely ignore those errors.
>
> My quote as a programmer to all programmers and developers, "If it works when you test it. Then, it is correct and no need to follow what your IDE tools tell you." You tested it and it worked. Do not analyze it. It ain't your job. *Smiles*.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 8:34 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
>>>> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>> Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.
>
> I think Anne is talking about PDF. There are some situations in PDF where the focus order may need to be different than the document structure order. In those specific cases it is ok. For example, say a table is used and the data table contains forms fields and headers, etc. It may be the preferred focus order to fill out all fields in column 1 first -- yet the structure order is row 1, row 2, etc. which would dictate filling out all fields in row 1 first. As long as the focus order is correct to the business logic and all fields are focusable the warning could safely be ignored in my opinion.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 (Office)
>
> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Don't miss Trends in Accessibility & Electronic Documents on Wed 12/7!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:13 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
> Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.
>
> Just let the source code or DOM order of the page control the focus and reading order of content.
>
> I’d recommend using the autofocus attribute if you want to start focus at a certain input on the page rather than using tabindex.
>
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html>;
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html <http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html>;
>
> If you share some code or a working demo we can answer your question better.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com
>
>> On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Anne Godlewski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>>
>> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>>
>> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anne
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >
> > > >
> > > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 9:17AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

Anne, did you set the tab order in the Thumbnails Panel?

1. Open Thumbnails Panel.
2. Control+A to select all the pages.
3. Options menu (from the Thumbnails Panel)
4. Page Properties (at the bottom of the list)
5. Choose Use Document Structure for the Tab Order.

For reasons I don't yet understand, I have to set this manually in some PDFs in order to correct the error from accessibility checkers and other tools.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —




-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 10:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Yes, I went to the Tags pane first, and everything there is as it should be. After I correct the reading order to match the structure in the Tags pane, I get the error about tab order being inconsistent with the structure order. Perhaps Acrobat is insisting that the structure order should be different from what it is (and should be).

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC) wrote:

> You will probably need to reorder the structure tags to match your reading and tab order. This can be done through the tags pane.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator
> Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 5:07 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>
> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>
> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>
> Thanks,
> Anne
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: JP Jamous
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 9:43AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

Quickly, the answer is Yes.

I would tackle this one just like a web page since Adobe Reader is the equivalent of a browser.

Let Adobe set the tabindex based on the structure of the document. Map that structure in your head or on paper first. Secondly, test the output and if it needs a tabindex of 0 or higher to adjust it, you are good to go.

As long as the tab order for keyboard only and screen reader users is how it should be, go ahead and move on with other work. Don't sweat it.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 9:58 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Ha! Thanks for the laugh, JP. There seems to be no reason why Acrobat is bumping the "no" of a yes/no pair of check boxes, for example, further down the page, and then telling me that this is where that check box should be.

Is it acceptable, then, that the tab order is set as "unspecified" in such cases for those pages?

Anne

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:45 AM, JP Jamous wrote:

> I have not had the chance to do what Ann has done, but as a programmer, it is obvious why the tool is giving you errors. Jonathon is right about it. A program is dumb in the sense that it only does what it was told to do. It cannot make intelligent decisions like humans. If it does we won't need WCAG auditors.
>
> So your issue is that you are submissive to the tool. Don't let that dumb thing confuse you and convince you that it is smarter than your brain. If you know what you are doing, you can safely ignore those errors.
>
> My quote as a programmer to all programmers and developers, "If it works when you test it. Then, it is correct and no need to follow what your IDE tools tell you." You tested it and it worked. Do not analyze it. It ain't your job. *Smiles*.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 8:34 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
>>>> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>> Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.
>
> I think Anne is talking about PDF. There are some situations in PDF where the focus order may need to be different than the document structure order. In those specific cases it is ok. For example, say a table is used and the data table contains forms fields and headers, etc. It may be the preferred focus order to fill out all fields in column 1 first -- yet the structure order is row 1, row 2, etc. which would dictate filling out all fields in row 1 first. As long as the focus order is correct to the business logic and all fields are focusable the warning could safely be ignored in my opinion.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> SSB BART Group
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 (Office)
>
> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog Don't miss Trends in Accessibility & Electronic Documents on Wed 12/7!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 6:13 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
> Are you using tabindex=1,2,3,4+, etc. to try and manually control the tab order? Don’t do that if so.
>
> Just let the source code or DOM order of the page control the focus and reading order of content.
>
> I’d recommend using the autofocus attribute if you want to start focus at a certain input on the page rather than using tabindex.
>
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html
> <http://pauljadam.com/demos/positivetabindexfail.html>;
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html
> <http://pauljadam.com/demos/autofocusvstabindex.html>;
>
> If you share some code or a working demo we can answer your question better.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> www.deque.com
>
>> On Nov 28, 2016, at 5:07 PM, Anne Godlewski < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>>
>> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>>
>> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anne
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 10:36AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

JP Wrote: "I would tackle this one just like a web page since Adobe Reader is the equivalent of a browser."

Adobe/Acrobat Reader is definitely NOT the equivalent of a browser because a PDF is not the equivalent of an HTML file.

Two different coding entities. And the Acrobat PDF file format was in development before HTML was released.

You might be confusing the end-result action or delivery to the AT user, which should be similar, regardless of the file format. The PDF/UA standard was deliberately created to mirror and harmonize with the WCAG standard as much as possible, but it is not a duplicate of WCAG so, therefore, user agents like screen readers will interpret PDFs differently than HTML.

Acrobat Reader is a standalone software program as well as a plug-in for browsers, and it is not anything like a browser.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of JP Jamous
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:44 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Quickly, the answer is Yes.

I would tackle this one just like a web page since Adobe Reader is the equivalent of a browser.

Let Adobe set the tabindex based on the structure of the document. Map that structure in your head or on paper first. Secondly, test the output and if it needs a tabindex of 0 or higher to adjust it, you are good to go.

As long as the tab order for keyboard only and screen reader users is how it should be, go ahead and move on with other work. Don't sweat it.

From: JP Jamous
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 11:30AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

But doesn't Adobe reader reads the binary file and all of the styles in it and apply them to the objects to create the presentation intended?
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:37 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

JP Wrote: "I would tackle this one just like a web page since Adobe Reader is the equivalent of a browser."

Adobe/Acrobat Reader is definitely NOT the equivalent of a browser because a PDF is not the equivalent of an HTML file.

Two different coding entities. And the Acrobat PDF file format was in development before HTML was released.

You might be confusing the end-result action or delivery to the AT user, which should be similar, regardless of the file format. The PDF/UA standard was deliberately created to mirror and harmonize with the WCAG standard as much as possible, but it is not a duplicate of WCAG so, therefore, user agents like screen readers will interpret PDFs differently than HTML.

Acrobat Reader is a standalone software program as well as a plug-in for browsers, and it is not anything like a browser.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of JP Jamous
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:44 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Quickly, the answer is Yes.

I would tackle this one just like a web page since Adobe Reader is the equivalent of a browser.

Let Adobe set the tabindex based on the structure of the document. Map that structure in your head or on paper first. Secondly, test the output and if it needs a tabindex of 0 or higher to adjust it, you are good to go.

As long as the tab order for keyboard only and screen reader users is how it should be, go ahead and move on with other work. Don't sweat it.

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 11:50AM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

No.
Part by part...
PDF is a self-contained file that includes the page layout, fonts, tags, graphics, and all other information required for the appearance.
Originally used PostScript page description programming language to do this, PDF now uses its own PostScript-like encoding. This "nails down" the appearance at the time the PDF is created from the source file. There's nothing left to anyone's interpretation or rendering. It is a hardwired file, which is why it's used in enterprises that need to record the data at a specific time.

Originally intended for the printing and graphics arts community which needed a way to move a design/layout from the designer's computer to the print shop's computer so that it could be printed. That's why it's locked down. Nothing should move, rewrap, or change as the file moves from one computer to the other.

There are no styles in a PDF.
So there isn't anything to apply to anything to create the presentation.

Not at all like HTML! To me, they are the exact opposites of each other.

--Bevi

-----Original Message-----
From: JP Jamous [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:30 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

But doesn't Adobe reader reads the binary file and all of the styles in it and apply them to the objects to create the presentation intended?
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:37 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

JP Wrote: "I would tackle this one just like a web page since Adobe Reader is the equivalent of a browser."

Adobe/Acrobat Reader is definitely NOT the equivalent of a browser because a PDF is not the equivalent of an HTML file.

Two different coding entities. And the Acrobat PDF file format was in development before HTML was released.

You might be confusing the end-result action or delivery to the AT user, which should be similar, regardless of the file format. The PDF/UA standard was deliberately created to mirror and harmonize with the WCAG standard as much as possible, but it is not a duplicate of WCAG so, therefore, user agents like screen readers will interpret PDFs differently than HTML.

Acrobat Reader is a standalone software program as well as a plug-in for browsers, and it is not anything like a browser.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of JP Jamous
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:44 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Quickly, the answer is Yes.

I would tackle this one just like a web page since Adobe Reader is the equivalent of a browser.

Let Adobe set the tabindex based on the structure of the document. Map that structure in your head or on paper first. Secondly, test the output and if it needs a tabindex of 0 or higher to adjust it, you are good to go.

As long as the tab order for keyboard only and screen reader users is how it should be, go ahead and move on with other work. Don't sweat it.

From: Anne Godlewski
Date: Tue, Nov 29 2016 12:02PM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bevi,

Yes, I did. In fact, this is the action that messes up the order of the form fields in the Forms menu.

I also find that I must do this manually sometimes.

Anne

On Nov 29, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:

> Anne, did you set the tab order in the Thumbnails Panel?
>
> 1. Open Thumbnails Panel.
> 2. Control+A to select all the pages.
> 3. Options menu (from the Thumbnails Panel)
> 4. Page Properties (at the bottom of the list)
> 5. Choose Use Document Structure for the Tab Order.
>
> For reasons I don't yet understand, I have to set this manually in some PDFs in order to correct the error from accessibility checkers and other tools.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
>
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
> for publishing & communication
> | Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
> — — —
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 10:42 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
> Yes, I went to the Tags pane first, and everything there is as it should be. After I correct the reading order to match the structure in the Tags pane, I get the error about tab order being inconsistent with the structure order. Perhaps Acrobat is insisting that the structure order should be different from what it is (and should be).
>
> On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC) wrote:
>
>> You will probably need to reorder the structure tags to match your reading and tab order. This can be done through the tags pane.
>>
>> Mike Moore
>> Accessibility Coordinator
>> Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
>> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 5:07 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>>
>> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>>
>> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anne
>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >
> > > >
> > > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Wed, Nov 30 2016 10:06PM
Subject: Re: Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
← Previous message | No next message

@ Anne Godlewski,
Would you contact me directly off list about this Acrobat issue?
Thanks,
Bevi Chagnon
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

-----Original Message-----
From: Chagnon | PubCom [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 11:18 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Anne, did you set the tab order in the Thumbnails Panel?

1. Open Thumbnails Panel.
2. Control+A to select all the pages.
3. Options menu (from the Thumbnails Panel) 4. Page Properties (at the bottom of the list) 5. Choose Use Document Structure for the Tab Order.

For reasons I don't yet understand, I have to set this manually in some PDFs in order to correct the error from accessibility checkers and other tools.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —




-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 10:42 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms

Yes, I went to the Tags pane first, and everything there is as it should be. After I correct the reading order to match the structure in the Tags pane, I get the error about tab order being inconsistent with the structure order. Perhaps Acrobat is insisting that the structure order should be different from what it is (and should be).

On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:32 AM, Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC) wrote:

> You will probably need to reorder the structure tags to match your reading and tab order. This can be done through the tags pane.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator
> Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
> (512) 438-3431 (Office)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Anne Godlewski
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 5:07 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Errors with tab order and reading order in forms
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm having a significant issue with a particular page of a form.
>
> When I re-order the form fields on this page (page 8) using the Forms tool, my accessibility checker tells me that on several pages, the tab order may be inconsistent with the document structure. When I set the tab order to follow the document structure, I lose about 10 form field tags throughout the document and the reading order on page 8 gets messed up. So I add the form field tags back and leave the tab order according to the document structure, and the accessibility checker says all is well, but I can see that the reading order on page 8 is still completely wrong. If I correct one error, I'm left with the other error.
>
> Is there a solution to this awful cycle?
>
> Thanks,
> Anne