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Thread: Preferred OS for screen readers
Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)
From: Ruth Stillman
Date: Wed, Sep 04 2002 7:19AM
Subject: Preferred OS for screen readers
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My company is looking to purchase JAWS so that we can do more extensive
testing of sites that we create. Does the operating system make any difference
when it comes to screen readers?
Thanks!
Ruth Stillman
Senior User Experience Designer
Molecular, Inc.
http://www.molecular.com
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From: Mark Rew
Date: Wed, Sep 04 2002 7:35AM
Subject: Re: Preferred OS for screen readers
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Yes, the Operating system makes a huge difference in screen readers. Products
such as Jaws and Windows eyes are written for the Windows os. Jaws usage the
MSAA api.
The operating system Linux will use a speech solution such as emacs or
SpeakUp. SpeakUp is a modification to the Linux Kernel of the Operating
System.
Some Apple OS are using another os specific package I think is called
Out-Spoken.
My question is:
Does purchasing a Screen Reader serve your purpose. Consider getting a review
team outside of your organization to review your products for all
accessibility. And, of course, use the standards such as the W3C and Section
508.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruth Stillman" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 10:07 AM
Subject: Preferred OS for screen readers
> My company is looking to purchase JAWS so that we can do more extensive
> testing of sites that we create. Does the operating system make any
difference
> when it comes to screen readers?
>
> Thanks!
> Ruth Stillman
> Senior User Experience Designer
> Molecular, Inc.
> http://www.molecular.com
>
>
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> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
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From: Kynn Bartlett
Date: Wed, Sep 04 2002 9:49AM
Subject: Re: Preferred OS for screen readers
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At 10:29 AM -0400 9/4/02, Mark Rew wrote:
>My question is:
>Does purchasing a Screen Reader serve your purpose. Consider getting a review
>team outside of your organization to review your products for all
>accessibility. And, of course, use the standards such as the W3C and Section
>508.
I second this. Non-blind people trying to use screenreaders will
almost certainly fail -- by getting false positives and overlooking
true negatives. Why? Because screenreaders are such a complex,
specialized piece of software that in order to use them correctly,
you have to practice a lot and be highly motivated. Blind users
fit those criteria and are able to distinguish actual problems
with a Web site from difficulties in using the screenreader or
the browser. Non-blind people do not.
If you want to test your page with a screenreader, get yourself one
or three blind folks on-call and hire them as necessary. If you really
must attempt to hear a Web page, try something like IBM's Home
Page Reader which is a fraction of the cost as well as less
complex -- it does everything you (assuming you're not blind) need
to do in order to get a sense of Web page problems.
--Kynn
--
Kynn Bartlett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > http://kynn.com
Chief Technologist, Idyll Mountain http://idyllmtn.com
Next Book: Teach Yourself CSS in 24 http://cssin24hours.com
Kynn on Web Accessibility ->> http://kynn.com/+sitepoint
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From: Tom Gilder
Date: Thu, Sep 05 2002 3:57AM
Subject: Re: Preferred OS for screen readers
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On Wednesday, September 4, 2002, 5:40:44 PM, you wrote:
> If you really must attempt to hear a Web page, try something like
> IBM's Home Page Reader which is a fraction of the cost as well as
> less complex -- it does everything you (assuming you're not blind)
> need to do in order to get a sense of Web page problems.
And turn the screen off :)
--
Tom Gilder
http://tom.me.uk/
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Thu, Sep 05 2002 6:09AM
Subject: Testing with Alternative User Agents (was RE: Preferred OS for screen readers)
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I second Kynn's point.
JAWS is a wonderful application which extends "computer" functionality to
blind users; web, word-processing, spreadsheets, email, etc. For testing
purposes it may in fact be overkill.
I (as Kynn suggested) use IBM's Home Page Reader as a testing tool, as well
as Lynx and an old version of pwWebspeak (no longer available
unfortunately). They "read-out-loud" a web page, which is what I believe
you want to do as part of a test process.
Developers on a budget could also look at Simply Web 2000
(http://www.econointl.com/sw/) - NOTE, this is *really* stripped down, but
has a price tag to match (Free). Other alternative browers / user agents
can be found at: http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/Browsing
As part of a regular demonstration/evaluation session I facilitate each
week, I also use a Cell Phone emulator, which, well, emulates web content on
a cell phone. While the practicality of it is limited at best (it does not
support any form functions, chokes on named anchors, etc.) it demonstrates
to the uninitiated that accessible web design is more than just web sites
for the blind (or those in wheelchairs, deaf, etc.); rather, accessible
means accessible to all devices/users. (Note: there seems to be a number of
cell phone emulators out there - do a Google - but the one I use is the
DeckIt emulator from PyWeb - http://www.pyweb.com/tools/ - available for
Windows and Linux)
JF
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kynn Bartlett [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: September 4, 2002 12:41 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: Preferred OS for screen readers
>
>
> At 10:29 AM -0400 9/4/02, Mark Rew wrote:
> >My question is:
> >Does purchasing a Screen Reader serve your purpose. Consider
> getting a review
> >team outside of your organization to review your products for all
> >accessibility. And, of course, use the standards such as the
> W3C and Section
> >508.
>
> I second this. Non-blind people trying to use screenreaders will
> almost certainly fail -- by getting false positives and overlooking
> true negatives. Why? Because screenreaders are such a complex,
> specialized piece of software that in order to use them correctly,
> you have to practice a lot and be highly motivated. Blind users
> fit those criteria and are able to distinguish actual problems
> with a Web site from difficulties in using the screenreader or
> the browser. Non-blind people do not.
>
> If you want to test your page with a screenreader, get yourself one
> or three blind folks on-call and hire them as necessary. If you really
> must attempt to hear a Web page, try something like IBM's Home
> Page Reader which is a fraction of the cost as well as less
> complex -- it does everything you (assuming you're not blind) need
> to do in order to get a sense of Web page problems.
>
> --Kynn
>
> --
> Kynn Bartlett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > http://kynn.com
> Chief Technologist, Idyll Mountain http://idyllmtn.com
> Next Book: Teach Yourself CSS in 24 http://cssin24hours.com
> Kynn on Web Accessibility ->> http://kynn.com/+sitepoint
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
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From: Frank Gaine
Date: Thu, Sep 05 2002 6:41AM
Subject: How pages are generated and Accessibility?
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Group,
Does the manner in which a web page is generated affect its accessibility?
For example, how about pages that are generated using XML by being run
through an XSL stylesheet(s) which then renders the data as HTML?
Confusing? Don't wory, join the club.
Any technicaly minded takers on this on? Kynn, I'm looking in your direction
(simley icon).
Regards
Frank
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From: Paul Bohman
Date: Thu, Sep 05 2002 9:18AM
Subject: RE: How pages are generated and Accessibility?
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As far as accessibility is concerned, the process by which the content
is created is almost completely irrelevant, as long as the resulting
content is accessible. If you're creating HTML Web pages from XML source
documents via XSL conversion, the end result is still HTML. The truth is
that the end user never has to know that the conversion took place at
all. For all intents and purposes, the end user is viewing a static HTML
page.
The same is true of any server-side scripting system, such as JSP, PHP,
ASP, Perl, Python, Cold Fusion, or whatever else. If the processing
takes place on the server, the user receives only the end result, which
is usually in HTML or XHTML format.
The key, then, is to make sure that you code the XSL or scripting in
such a way that it creates accessible HTML output.
The only time where this can become a potential problem is if the
processing is done on the client's computer. For example, Internet
Explorer 6 and Netscape 6 and 7 can process XML documents with XSL
transformations. Most older versions of these browsers can't do this and
neither can most other browsers of other brands. This means that some
people will receive the correct document transformation, and others will
not, depending on their client setup.
To avoid this, you can use server-side XML/XSLT parsers, which are
available for most of the server-side scripting languages out there
(e.g. Java, PHP, etc.). If you do it this way, then the end user
receives only the end product in HTML format, and all is well.
Paul Bohman
Technology Coordinator
WebAIM (Web Accessibility in Mind)
www.webaim.org
Center for Persons with Disabilities
www.cpd.usu.edu
Utah State University
www.usu.edu
-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Gaine [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 7:36 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: How pages are generated and Accessibility?
Group,
Does the manner in which a web page is generated affect its
accessibility?
For example, how about pages that are generated using XML by being run
through an XSL stylesheet(s) which then renders the data as HTML?
Confusing? Don't wory, join the club.
Any technicaly minded takers on this on? Kynn, I'm looking in your
direction
(simley icon).
Regards
Frank
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From: Jeff Rhodes
Date: Thu, Sep 05 2002 11:19AM
Subject: Re: How pages are generated and Accessibility?
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As long as your information is processed on the server side I don't
think you have to worry about how it is processed. If you are
processing on the client side, then one thing you can do is perhaps
render the page differently through your style sheets for that device.
(based on the client - for example: device=screen reader). Other
than that, most users will only see the final result of your page. Not
the process of the pages' creation.
On 5 Sep 2002 at 14:36, Frank Gaine wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> Does the manner in which a web page is generated affect its accessibility?
>
> For example, how about pages that are generated using XML by being run
> through an XSL stylesheet(s) which then renders the data as HTML?
>
> Confusing? Don't wory, join the club.
>
> Any technicaly minded takers on this on? Kynn, I'm looking in your direction
> (simley icon).
>
> Regards
> Frank
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
Jeff Rhodes, Developer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Internet Association Corporation
www.iaccorp.com
voice: (330) 376-6006 x255
fax: (330) 376-3355
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thought for the day:
-since blue and white is the international sign for handicapped,
what does that say about the iowa licence plates?
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From: Kynn Bartlett
Date: Thu, Sep 05 2002 12:20PM
Subject: Re: How pages are generated and Accessibility?
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At 2:36 PM +0100 9/5/02, Frank Gaine wrote:
>Does the manner in which a web page is generated affect its accessibility?
Indirectly.
>For example, how about pages that are generated using XML by being run
>through an XSL stylesheet(s) which then renders the data as HTML?
>Confusing? Don't wory, join the club.
There's no direct effect on the accessibility of the page -- because
you are using the XSLT to generate an HTML page (or XHTML page), and that
gets sent from the server to the browser, the end result is what
matters. This is also the case for HTML generated by Perl, by PHP,
by ASP, etc. However, READ ON.
>Any technicaly minded takers on this on? Kynn, I'm looking in your direction
>(simley icon).
The _indirect_ effect of a generated page, whether from a database or
from an XML data store, is that you're already forced to separate
content (the data) from the presentation and navigation (the templates).
This makes it incredibly easy to repurpose that content, including
creating alternative versions of the site such as a "printable" version
or one optimized for screenreaders. This is the kind of thing we were
doing at (snif) Edapta [RIP 2000] on a more advanced scale, but it's
easily doable by anyone with a generated page. It's just a different
template, for the most part.
My own Web site (kynn.com) consists of PHP pages which are simply a
large content section as a variable, and a call to a site-wide
subroutine to generate the navigation bars and appearance. This made
it trivial to add a "print this page" function which formats the
page appropriately for printed output.
--Kynn
--
Kynn Bartlett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > http://kynn.com
Chief Technologist, Idyll Mountain http://idyllmtn.com
Next Book: Teach Yourself CSS in 24 http://cssin24hours.com
Kynn on Web Accessibility ->> http://kynn.com/+sitepoint
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From: Frank Gaine
Date: Fri, Sep 06 2002 5:34AM
Subject: WAI 6.5 - DYNAMIC CONTENT ?
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Group,
What is 'dymanic content' for the purposes of WAI 6.5? Is the situation
where a "searching...." page appears before search results are displayed
included here?
Regards
Frank
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From: Mark Rew
Date: Fri, Sep 06 2002 12:45PM
Subject: Re: How pages are generated and Accessibility?
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From a larger long term accessibility point of view, this method of processing
information from a xml vocabulary interpreting it with ssl or another
processor and presenting the information as html is very powerful for
providing information to assistive technology.
For example: currently most mathematical equations are displayed with gif
images which are not accessible by a screen reader. But, if mathml is used a
ssl processor can interpret the meaning or the important information and
present it to the screen reader in a usuable format.
I would like to see much more effort into this approach for making information
accessible.
Mark Rew
e-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
301-713-0262 x131
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Gaine" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 9:36 AM
Subject: How pages are generated and Accessibility?
>
> Group,
>
> Does the manner in which a web page is generated affect its accessibility?
>
> For example, how about pages that are generated using XML by being run
> through an XSL stylesheet(s) which then renders the data as HTML?
>
> Confusing? Don't wory, join the club.
>
> Any technicaly minded takers on this on? Kynn, I'm looking in your direction
> (simley icon).
>
> Regards
> Frank
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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From: Frank Gaine
Date: Sat, Sep 07 2002 2:58PM
Subject: Quick question .....
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Group,
Can anyone remember the URL of that US Government (I think) website where
the user is given the opportunity of changing the foreground and background
colours to one of three options?
Regards
Frank
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From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Sat, Sep 07 2002 5:27PM
Subject: Re: Quick question .....
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Not a government site, but try the AFB: http://www.afb.org/appearance.asp
AWK
9/7/2002 5:46:07 PM, Frank Gaine < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>Can anyone remember the URL of that US Government (I think) website where
>the user is given the opportunity of changing the foreground and background
>colours to one of three options?
>
--
Andrew Kirkpatrick
CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
125 Western Ave.
Boston, MA 02134
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
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From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Sun, Sep 08 2002 11:27AM
Subject: RE: Quick question .....
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There is also a government site that permits user choices for display,
though not federal: visit http://www.nysegov.com and click on the link at
the bottom of the page labeled "Personalize This Website."
Jim
Accessibility Consulting
http://jimthatcher.com
512-306-0931
Evaluation of web evaluation tools at http://jimthatcher.com/erx.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 7:01 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: Quick question .....
Not a government site, but try the AFB: http://www.afb.org/appearance.asp
AWK
9/7/2002 5:46:07 PM, Frank Gaine < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>Can anyone remember the URL of that US Government (I think) website where
>the user is given the opportunity of changing the foreground and background
>colours to one of three options?
>
--
Andrew Kirkpatrick
CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
125 Western Ave.
Boston, MA 02134
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
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From: Raman Gulati
Date: Sun, Sep 08 2002 9:16PM
Subject: Re: Quick question .....
← Previous message | No next message
UNSUBSCRIBE ME....I DO NOT WHY I AM GETTING THESE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Thatcher" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 11:47 PM
Subject: RE: Quick question .....
> There is also a government site that permits user choices for display,
> though not federal: visit http://www.nysegov.com and click on the link at
> the bottom of the page labeled "Personalize This Website."
>
> Jim
> Accessibility Consulting
> http://jimthatcher.com
> 512-306-0931
> Evaluation of web evaluation tools at http://jimthatcher.com/erx.htm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 7:01 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: Quick question .....
>
>
> Not a government site, but try the AFB: http://www.afb.org/appearance.asp
> AWK
>
> 9/7/2002 5:46:07 PM, Frank Gaine < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> >Can anyone remember the URL of that US Government (I think) website where
> >the user is given the opportunity of changing the foreground and
background
> >colours to one of three options?
> >
> --
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
> 125 Western Ave.
> Boston, MA 02134
> E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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