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From: Terence de Giere
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2002 9:24AM
Subject: Re :is Bobby a prude?
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Timothy --

> My copy of Bobby WorldWide got through to the page
> http://tntluoma.com/opera/lover/day15-instant/index.php .
>
> It reported zero errors for both both 508 and WAI through priority 3 -
> I did not do a manual check of those items requiring one to look at
> the code. Does your ISP have any kind of URL blocking? Some ISPs offer
> parents some blocking features that could be perhaps by default
> turned on? Perhaps there might also have been a temporary hang-up in
> your connections. Servers on the Internet do crash from time to time
> and have to be rebooted.
>
> A URL is a unique address. These are not the same pages. In my copy of
> the Opera 6.05 browser, they have slightly different format, with the
> 'lover' URL having larger fonts and some additional CSS effects not
> seen in the other.
>
> I see you have implemented W3C site navigation links (which will show
> in the Mozilla browsers' site navigation bar versions 1.1 and above.
> For some reason (bugs?) these were pulled out of the initial Mozilla
> 1.0 release and Netscape 7). Very nice. A lot of work.
>
> I just discovered a couple of days ago, since I was putting some of
> these navigation links in pages I was writing, that these navigation
> links also display in the Lynx text browser (version 2.8.2 is on my
> machine) but unfortunately they are not organized in any way - they
> just pile up at the top of the page in the order they appear in the
> page code. This is unfortunate for usability, especially if Lynx is
> used with a screen reader, but the problem is really one to be sorted
> out by the Lynx developers, unless you want to go to the trouble of
> detecting Lynx and providing a different page design.
>
> The W3C's goal of single page authoring is still seems a way off but
> closer. The page design here, with the content at the beginning of the
> page and navigation at the end (when CSS is off), as on many other
> sites that are accessible, seems to work best both for rendering in
> assistive technology and for search engines. A lot of us seem to have
> converged on the same solution. Interesting that this page design is
> very much like pages almost a decade ago before all the graphical
> design people started messing with HTML.

> I think your decision to forgo supporting similar format for Netscape
> 4.x browsers is fine.

> Terence de Giere
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>

>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> is Bobby a prude?
> From:
> "Timothy J. Luoma" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date:
> Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:19:40 -0400
> To:
> WebAIM Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> Hrm. This is strange. If I try:
>
> http://tntluoma.com/opera/lover/day15-instant/index.php
>
> I get an error:
>
> Connection Error: Bobby has experienced a problem connecting to
> this URL. Please try again.
>
>
> If I try:
>
> http://tntluoma.com/opera/30days/day15-instant/index.php
>
> (which is another URL to the same page)
>
> then it works.
>
>
> Is Bobby objecting to the word "lover" in an URL?
>
> TjL
>




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From: Timothy J. Luoma
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2002 12:14PM
Subject: Re: Re :is Bobby a prude?
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Terence de Giere wrote:

>> It reported zero errors for both both 508 and WAI through priority 3 -
>> I did not do a manual check of those items requiring one to look at
>> the code. Does your ISP have any kind of URL blocking? Some ISPs offer
>> parents some blocking features that could be perhaps by default
>> turned on? Perhaps there might also have been a temporary hang-up in
>> your connections. Servers on the Internet do crash from time to time
>> and have to be rebooted.

But I could, in the span of a few seconds, get one to work and not the other

>> A URL is a unique address. These are not the same pages. In my copy of
>> the Opera 6.05 browser, they have slightly different format, with the
>> 'lover' URL having larger fonts and some additional CSS effects not
>> seen in the other.

They are the same page.

The difference you are seeing is due to some PHP trickery I use on PATH
matching to feed a certain style sheet, which is to say, if the URL
includes "/opera/lover/" then PHP adds the line for the 'operalover.css'
but if it does not, then PHP ignores it. This lets me have 'section
specific' CSS that will apply to all sub-directories of 'foo' without
having to put it in my global CSS file.

I simply neglected to add the necessary PHP code for adding it if you
use the alternate URL, which I just slapdashed on when someone reported
their company apparently blocked URLs with the word 'lover' in them (DUH).


>> I see you have implemented W3C site navigation links (which will show
>> in the Mozilla browsers' site navigation bar versions 1.1 and above.
>> For some reason (bugs?) these were pulled out of the initial Mozilla
>> 1.0 release and Netscape 7). Very nice. A lot of work.

(yes it was bugs, but I use 1.1 and they work fine)

Not a lot of work if you use PHP. They are maintained in one file, and
again, if the URL matches /opera/lover/ then you get the appropriate
Section and Subsection code.

>> I just discovered a couple of days ago, since I was putting some of
>> these navigation links in pages I was writing, that these navigation
>> links also display in the Lynx text browser (version 2.8.2 is on my
>> machine) but unfortunately they are not organized in any way - they
>> just pile up at the top of the page in the order they appear in the
>> page code. This is unfortunate for usability, especially if Lynx is
>> used with a screen reader, but the problem is really one to be sorted
>> out by the Lynx developers, unless you want to go to the trouble of
>> detecting Lynx and providing a different page design.

Actually the answer is to make the first link that appears a 'skip
navigation' link, which I have meant to do for some time now but keep
getting distracted.

It would be easy enough to look for Lynx and feed it a different set of
LINKs. Actually, however, I have been thinking about sniffing for true
Mozilla/Netscape versions 7+ and only feeding it to them, as it is just
wasted bandwidth for other browsers.


>> I think your decision to forgo supporting similar format for Netscape
>> 4.x browsers is fine.

I feed it some basic stuff, but mostly I just ignore it.

What I recently did was change my "Upgrade yer browser" text to an image
with an alt text that says 'This page is designed to current web
standards' which has the advantage that the image only has to be
downloaded once (and can then be cached) and the alt text is being
included in my Google summaries, so when you find TnTLuoma.com you
instantly see a note that the page is designed to web standards, which I
like ;-)

TjL
--
30 Days to becoming an Opera Lover
http://www.tntluoma.com/switch
Day 21: Cache as Cache Can
http://tntluoma.com/opera/lover/day21-cache/



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