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Thread: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)
From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Thu, Oct 26 2017 8:00AM
Subject: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Hi all,
I'm testing a page with English and French versions with a screen reader. JAWS with NVDA, IE, Firefox and Chrome. Some of the links have title attributes for additional information. Though these are written in French, and the page itself has a French language attribute so is read in French properly, the title attributes are read with an English accent. Do title attributes require their own language attributes too, even if the page as a whole has the correct one?
Any help you can provide is much appreciated.
Merci!
Sarah
From: JP Jamous
Date: Thu, Oct 26 2017 8:05AM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Sarah,
Add the lang="fr-fr" to each link. I know this sounds weird, but that way you are enforcing the screen reader to recognize the language rather than try to apply it to all child objects.
Pas de Quois.
From: David Farough
Date: Thu, Oct 26 2017 10:33AM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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You might want to take a look at the speech and sound schemes settings
in Jaws.
To access these:
.Open the settings centre (jaws key plus 6 on the number row),
. type sch in the search edit field,
. press f6 to move focus to the right panel on the screen and activate
the modify scheme button.
.activate the edit scheme button,
This is a multi-page dialogue which allows you to control the way that
Jaws handles various controls, attributes and many other features.
in the attributes page of this dialogue there is a setting that governs
how link attributes are spoken.
You can make Jaws use different voice aliases or play various sounds
etc.
The other area you might want to explore is the speech profiles.
Here you can specify settings for the various speech or voice aliases.
I suspect that your scheme settings may be switching voices and using a
voice that is set to speak English text.
You will probably have to do some experimentation with these settings.
I do not know what you would need to do for NVDA.
HTH
David Farough
Coordonnateur de l'accessibilité des applications, Services intégrés de
gestion des TI
Commission de la fonction publique du Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tél: 819-420-8418 Télécopieur :
819-420-8408
Application Accessibility Co-ordinator, Corporate IT Management
Public Service Commission of Canada / Government of Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tel: 819-420-8418 / Fax: 819-420-8408
>>> Sarah Jevnikar < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 10:00 AM Thursday, October
26, 2017 >>>
Hi all,
I'm testing a page with English and French versions with a screen
reader. JAWS with NVDA, IE, Firefox and Chrome. Some of the links have
title attributes for additional information. Though these are written in
French, and the page itself has a French language attribute so is read
in French properly, the title attributes are read with an English
accent. Do title attributes require their own language attributes too,
even if the page as a whole has the correct one?
Any help you can provide is much appreciated.
Merci!
Sarah
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From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Thu, Oct 26 2017 3:19PM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Thanks David and JP,
The sound schemes is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's fair to expect everyone who wants to use this site to have made those changes.
I tried adding the language attribute (below), which didn't work, but I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Maybe it's in the wrong place?
<a lang="fr-fr" title="Aller à la page 2" href="http://google.ca/">2</a>
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Sarah
From: Maxability A11Y
Date: Thu, Oct 26 2017 11:30PM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Hi Sarah,
I just ran a page having page language set to Fr and the title of the link
is spoken in English as you said. If I change my NVDA language to French
the title too is read in French.
Steps you might know to change the language in NVDA but for my satisfaction
they are
Nvda key + n opens the NVDA settings.
Go to Preferences > Voice settings > Language and change to French.
Hoping that the French website readers set their screen reader preferred
language to French this may work.
This is a great observation, thanks for bringing that up.
On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 2:49 AM, Sarah Jevnikar < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Thanks David and JP,
> The sound schemes is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's fair to expect
> everyone who wants to use this site to have made those changes.
>
> I tried adding the language attribute (below), which didn't work, but I'm
> not sure what I'm doing wrong. Maybe it's in the wrong place?
>
> <a lang="fr-fr" title="Aller à la page 2" href="http://google.ca/">2</a>
>
> Any thoughts?
> Thanks,
> Sarah
>
>
From: David Farough
Date: Fri, Oct 27 2017 9:54AM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Hi Sarah:
I tried your code using Jaws 18 and NVDA and in both cases the title
was spoken using the English settings.
I agree that expecting a user to use the speech and sounds manager to
handle this situation would be excessive.
There is a setting to change language when speaking link attributes,
but that would assume that you knew what language to use for all the
links you encounter.
I tried specifying the normal voice rather than the Jaws message voice,
hoping that I would hear the title text in French but no luck there
either.
It seems reasonable to me that the title for the link should be spoken
using the language of the element.
this would be a good thing to report on the jaws open repository.
https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues
David Farough
Coordonnateur de l'accessibilité des applications, Services intégrés de
gestion des TI
Commission de la fonction publique du Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tél: 819-420-8418 Télécopieur :
819-420-8408
Application Accessibility Co-ordinator, Corporate IT Management
Public Service Commission of Canada / Government of Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tel: 819-420-8418 / Fax: 819-420-8408
>>> Sarah Jevnikar < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 05:19 PM Thursday, October
26, 2017 >>>
Thanks David and JP,
The sound schemes is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's fair to expect
everyone who wants to use this site to have made those changes.
I tried adding the language attribute (below), which didn't work, but
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Maybe it's in the wrong place?
<a lang="fr-fr" title="Aller à la page 2"
href="http://google.ca/">2</a>
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Sarah
From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Fri, Oct 27 2017 12:36PM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Thanks everyone for all your efforts. A change in language wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation, but the attribute inside the anchor tag should still be respected, in my mind.
Thank you for the JAWS github; I'll take a look. Could this qualify as an issue to report to NVDA as well?
Thank you,
Sarah
Sarah Jevnikar
Accessibility Consultant
Digital Echidna
p: 519-858-4438 ex. 211
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: David Farough
Date: Fri, Oct 27 2017 12:41PM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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There seem to be some related bugs reported on the Jaws issues site.
Check out
https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/9
and https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/8
David Farough
Coordonnateur de l'accessibilité des applications, Services intégrés de
gestion des TI
Commission de la fonction publique du Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tél: 819-420-8418 Télécopieur :
819-420-8408
Application Accessibility Co-ordinator, Corporate IT Management
Public Service Commission of Canada / Government of Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tel: 819-420-8418 / Fax: 819-420-8408
>>> Sarah Jevnikar < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 05:19 PM Thursday, October
26, 2017 >>>
Thanks David and JP,
The sound schemes is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's fair to expect
everyone who wants to use this site to have made those changes.
I tried adding the language attribute (below), which didn't work, but
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Maybe it's in the wrong place?
<a lang="fr-fr" title="Aller à la page 2"
href="http://google.ca/">2</a>
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Sarah
From: David Farough
Date: Fri, Oct 27 2017 12:44PM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Yes, report to nvda as well.
If I get to it I'll report back.
David Farough
Coordonnateur de l'accessibilité des applications, Services intégrés de
gestion des TI
Commission de la fonction publique du Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tél: 819-420-8418 Télécopieur :
819-420-8408
Application Accessibility Co-ordinator, Corporate IT Management
Public Service Commission of Canada / Government of Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tel: 819-420-8418 / Fax: 819-420-8408
>>> Sarah Jevnikar < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 02:36 PM Friday, October 27,
2017 >>>
Thanks everyone for all your efforts. A change in language wouldn't be
an unreasonable expectation, but the attribute inside the anchor tag
should still be respected, in my mind.
Thank you for the JAWS github; I'll take a look. Could this qualify as
an issue to report to NVDA as well?
Thank you,
Sarah
Sarah Jevnikar
Accessibility Consultant
Digital Echidna
p: 519-858-4438 ex. 211
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: JP Jamous
Date: Sun, Oct 29 2017 2:37AM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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I do echo the response of those who would like to see screen readers do better with lang attributes. I have found that JAWS does not drill through various nested tags to look for lang attributes.
For example, I had various sites with one link pointing to English, Spanish and Chinese content. It would be redundant to include multiple links with the same URL on the page. JAWS was only reading the first span inside the link label and defaulting to English.
As I tried to make sense out of it, I noticed that JAWS was using the <a> lang attribute and applying it to all of the spans within the link label. It completely disregarded the spans that had the Spanish and Chinese. It read their content using English synthesizers.
While that was proper HTML coding and I couldn't disagree with the developers, I was unable to get the right content spoken with the right synthesizer to our customers.
Another thing I noticed about JAWS 18 was the claim that it now supports Arabic. That was a lie. I went to Arabic web sites and to my surprise, JAWS was still reading the content as a string of Arabic letters. There was no way to make out what it was saying.
I wanted to mention this on here for those who might be coding something in Arabic. Do not expect JAWS to switch its synthesizer to an Arabic one that can assemble the letters and read from right to left. In fact, it would read the letters from left to right, which is wrong and makes no sense to the end user.
VFO definitely needs to make some improvements with the way JAWS parses languages. There is a ton of problems in that area that are not being addressed. I cannot foresee a reason why a small program like VoiceOver on iOS can read Arabic quite well and would switch smoothly between languages, when a huge application like JAWS cannot. I won't buy it either that it is a Windows limitation. It is simply lack of interest, which has been bothering me for many years with JAWS. This is becoming more of a problem now that the web is imposing this restriction on JAWS and VFO is careless about it.
If I sound a bit harsh, that's because VFO or FS have obtained many suggestions from me as a user. All of those suggestions were never taken in consideration when it came to altering synthesizers properly and supporting Arabic as well.
From: Bim Egan
Date: Sun, Oct 29 2017 3:44AM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Thank you for that JP,
It explains a great deal. It'll also save vast amounts of time trying to
analyse apparent errors. It's incredible that this hasn't been resolved by
FS long ago.
Strange too, they always seem keen to make inessential "improvements". You
know, those that (probably unintentionally) make it harder for users to
browse and read content, or increase the learning curve to transition to the
latest version.
It's extremely frustrating, so thanks for explaining *this* blunder so
clearly,
Bim
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Sun, Oct 29 2017 10:12AM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Hi All, please do file JAWS HTML/ARIA/CSS/SVG standards support issues on
https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues
We (at TPG) are working with our colleagues at Freedom Scientific to
improve standards support in JAWS and prioritise bug fixes.
--
Regards
SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
On 29 October 2017 at 09:44, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thank you for that JP,
>
> It explains a great deal. It'll also save vast amounts of time trying to
> analyse apparent errors. It's incredible that this hasn't been resolved by
> FS long ago.
>
> Strange too, they always seem keen to make inessential "improvements". You
> know, those that (probably unintentionally) make it harder for users to
> browse and read content, or increase the learning curve to transition to
> the
> latest version.
>
> It's extremely frustrating, so thanks for explaining *this* blunder so
> clearly,
>
> Bim
>
>
>
>
From: David Farough
Date: Tue, Oct 31 2017 10:33AM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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I found the following link on github. they seem to be aware of the
issue but I believe that this is closed.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5007
David Farough
Coordonnateur de l'accessibilité des applications, Services intégrés de
gestion des TI
Commission de la fonction publique du Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tél: 819-420-8418 Télécopieur :
819-420-8408
Application Accessibility Co-ordinator, Corporate IT Management
Public Service Commission of Canada / Government of Canada
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Tel: 819-420-8418 / Fax: 819-420-8408
>>> Sarah Jevnikar < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 05:19 PM Thursday, October
26, 2017 >>>
Thanks David and JP,
The sound schemes is a good idea, but I'm not sure it's fair to expect
everyone who wants to use this site to have made those changes.
I tried adding the language attribute (below), which didn't work, but
I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Maybe it's in the wrong place?
<a lang="fr-fr" title="Aller à la page 2"
href="http://google.ca/">2</a>
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Sarah
From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Thu, Nov 16 2017 12:33PM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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Thanks, Steve - I've made a note of that URL.
As for NVDA, it appears that several bugs have been filed but none has been fixed yet. Could someone enlighten me please on the status of this? The one open report remaining appears to be this one.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/3188
Thank you,
Sarah
Sarah Jevnikar
Accessibility Consultant
Digital Echidna
p: 519-858-4438 ex. 211
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Sarah Jevnikar
Date: Thu, Nov 16 2017 1:15PM
Subject: Re: Title Attribute speaking Right Language in Wrong accent, but the rest of the page is fine
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I found that too - cycling between the various similar bugs seemed to take me in circles. It's not clear to me why any of those were closed. Thank you for the JAWS bug references: I think I'll file a specific title attribute one for JAWS, but reference those others as similar. It would appear a pattern is developing...
Sarah
Sarah Jevnikar
Accessibility Consultant
Digital Echidna
p: 519-858-4438 ex. 211
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =