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Thread: ARIA Grid Discussion
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: Jim Homme
Date: Fri, Aug 03 2018 1:20PM
Subject: ARIA Grid Discussion
No previous message | Next message →
Hi,
Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up as a topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible. Specifically, to a screen reader it looks like we have a one row table followed by the rest of the table in a separate table. I want to understand what the issues are from a developer perspective. In otherwords, if the developer says something like "We are using this grid because it is responsive and we don't want to turn it into a single HTML table because it will break what we want it to do," how do I respond and show them they can have their cake and eat it too?
Thanks.
Jim
==========
Jim Homme
Product Manager
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
People with disabilities, access job openings at https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Fri, Aug 03 2018 3:20PM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | Next message →
Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but hidden underneath the 1 column table
I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big gets very unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have to scan back to the first column to remember what they are looking at.
In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or separate window that can be brought up with all the details.
Take care,
Jonathan Cohn
.
> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up as a topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>
> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible. Specifically, to a screen reader it looks like we have a one row table followed by the rest of the table in a separate table. I want to understand what the issues are from a developer perspective. In otherwords, if the developer says something like "We are using this grid because it is responsive and we don't want to turn it into a single HTML table because it will break what we want it to do," how do I respond and show them they can have their cake and eat it too?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> ==========
> Jim Homme
> Product Manager
> Digital Accessibility
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
> People with disabilities, access job openings at https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>
>
> > > >
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sat, Aug 04 2018 7:33AM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | Next message →
What about placing a div element around both tables, giving it a role
of table, then use role="presentation" on the table elements.
<div role="table">
<table role=="presentation">
<tr>
<th>heading</th>
</tr>
...
</table>
...
</div>
Not sure if this works but technically the element with role="table
now owns all the tr elements of the other two tables, so to a
compliant assistive technology those look like a single table.
I'd give it a 40/60 chance of working, but it would be an interesting
experiment.
That is, if I am understanding the problem correctly.
On 8/3/18, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
>
> We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but hidden
> underneath the 1 column table
>
> I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big gets very
> unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have to scan back to
> the first column to remember what they are looking at.
>
> In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or separate
> window that can be brought up with all the details.
>
> Take care,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
> .
>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up as a
>> topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>>
>> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible. Specifically, to
>> a screen reader it looks like we have a one row table followed by the rest
>> of the table in a separate table. I want to understand what the issues are
>> from a developer perspective. In otherwords, if the developer says
>> something like "We are using this grid because it is responsive and we
>> don't want to turn it into a single HTML table because it will break what
>> we want it to do," how do I respond and show them they can have their cake
>> and eat it too?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> Jim Homme
>> Product Manager
>> Digital Accessibility
>> Bender Consulting Services
>> 412-787-8567
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> >
> > > > >
--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
From: Jonathan C. Cohn
Date: Sun, Aug 05 2018 6:58AM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | Next message →
Makes sense, vut I was not able to get that to work when i tried three months ago.
Best wishes,
Jonathan Cohn
> On Aug 4, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> What about placing a div element around both tables, giving it a role
> of table, then use role="presentation" on the table elements.
> <div role="table">
> <table role=="presentation">
> <tr>
> <th>heading</th>
> </tr>
> ...
> </table>
> ...
> </div>
> Not sure if this works but technically the element with role="table
> now owns all the tr elements of the other two tables, so to a
> compliant assistive technology those look like a single table.
> I'd give it a 40/60 chance of working, but it would be an interesting
> experiment.
> That is, if I am understanding the problem correctly.
>
>
>> On 8/3/18, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
>>
>> We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but hidden
>> underneath the 1 column table
>>
>> I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big gets very
>> unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have to scan back to
>> the first column to remember what they are looking at.
>>
>> In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or separate
>> window that can be brought up with all the details.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Jonathan Cohn
>> .
>>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up as a
>>> topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>>>
>>> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible. Specifically, to
>>> a screen reader it looks like we have a one row table followed by the rest
>>> of the table in a separate table. I want to understand what the issues are
>>> from a developer perspective. In otherwords, if the developer says
>>> something like "We are using this grid because it is responsive and we
>>> don't want to turn it into a single HTML table because it will break what
>>> we want it to do," how do I respond and show them they can have their cake
>>> and eat it too?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> Jim Homme
>>> Product Manager
>>> Digital Accessibility
>>> Bender Consulting Services
>>> 412-787-8567
>>> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>>> https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>> >> >> >> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > >
From: Mohith BP
Date: Sun, Aug 05 2018 11:33PM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi,
role="table" is not supported by all the major screen readers
especially older versions.
Tested around 4 months ago.
ARIA grid also has limitations with NVDA and browser combinations.
At this point working fix is what Jonathan suggested.
Thanks & Regards,
Mohith B. P.
On 8/5/18, Jonathan C. Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Makes sense, vut I was not able to get that to work when i tried three
> months ago.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>> On Aug 4, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> What about placing a div element around both tables, giving it a role
>> of table, then use role="presentation" on the table elements.
>> <div role="table">
>> <table role=="presentation">
>> <tr>
>> <th>heading</th>
>> </tr>
>> ...
>> </table>
>> ...
>> </div>
>> Not sure if this works but technically the element with role="table
>> now owns all the tr elements of the other two tables, so to a
>> compliant assistive technology those look like a single table.
>> I'd give it a 40/60 chance of working, but it would be an interesting
>> experiment.
>> That is, if I am understanding the problem correctly.
>>
>>
>>> On 8/3/18, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
>>>
>>> We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but hidden
>>> underneath the 1 column table
>>>
>>> I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big gets
>>> very
>>> unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have to scan back
>>> to
>>> the first column to remember what they are looking at.
>>>
>>> In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or
>>> separate
>>> window that can be brought up with all the details.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>> .
>>>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up as
>>>> a
>>>> topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible. Specifically,
>>>> to
>>>> a screen reader it looks like we have a one row table followed by the
>>>> rest
>>>> of the table in a separate table. I want to understand what the issues
>>>> are
>>>> from a developer perspective. In otherwords, if the developer says
>>>> something like "We are using this grid because it is responsive and we
>>>> don't want to turn it into a single HTML table because it will break
>>>> what
>>>> we want it to do," how do I respond and show them they can have their
>>>> cake
>>>> and eat it too?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> Jim Homme
>>>> Product Manager
>>>> Digital Accessibility
>>>> Bender Consulting Services
>>>> 412-787-8567
>>>> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>>>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>>>> https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>> >> >> >> > > > > >
From: Don Mauck
Date: Mon, Aug 06 2018 11:37AM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | Next message →
This becoming quite an issue with many of the Applications we use. Is this a case where JAWS just isn't handling the ARIA grid correctly, or is it Firefox or for that matter any Browser?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan C. Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 6:59 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA Grid Discussion
Makes sense, vut I was not able to get that to work when i tried three months ago.
Best wishes,
Jonathan Cohn
> On Aug 4, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> What about placing a div element around both tables, giving it a role
> of table, then use role="presentation" on the table elements.
> <div role="table">
> <table role=="presentation">
> <tr>
> <th>heading</th>
> </tr>
> ...
> </table>
> ...
> </div>
> Not sure if this works but technically the element with role="table
> now owns all the tr elements of the other two tables, so to a
> compliant assistive technology those look like a single table.
> I'd give it a 40/60 chance of working, but it would be an interesting
> experiment.
> That is, if I am understanding the problem correctly.
>
>
>> On 8/3/18, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
>>
>> We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but
>> hidden underneath the 1 column table
>>
>> I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big
>> gets very unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have
>> to scan back to the first column to remember what they are looking at.
>>
>> In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or
>> separate window that can be brought up with all the details.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Jonathan Cohn
>> .
>>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up
>>> as a topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>>>
>>> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible.
>>> Specifically, to a screen reader it looks like we have a one row
>>> table followed by the rest of the table in a separate table. I want
>>> to understand what the issues are from a developer perspective. In
>>> otherwords, if the developer says something like "We are using this
>>> grid because it is responsive and we don't want to turn it into a
>>> single HTML table because it will break what we want it to do," how
>>> do I respond and show them they can have their cake and eat it too?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> Jim Homme
>>> Product Manager
>>> Digital Accessibility
>>> Bender Consulting Services
>>> 412-787-8567
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>> lt.com_our-2520services_hightest-2Daccessible-2Dtechnology-2Dsolutio
>>> ns&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqx
>>> GediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLye
>>> IqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=6viYyu9xfsyXFBSmCXHK4NdFVSzoRImOBgOzy7_Pf2g&e=
>>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>> lt.com_careers_job-2Dopenings&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7
>>> qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cju
>>> h6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=j9TTn3gr6hijXMDhx0aEbFPG0
>>> AOCuxsMr1h7Huzk664&e=
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_
>>> &d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGe
>>> diPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIq
>>> kuxFxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>>> List archives at
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discu
>>> ssion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn
>>> E&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_
>>> jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0
>>> ZKo&e= >>
>> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&
>> d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGedi
>> PFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkux
>> FxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>> List archives at
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discus
>> sion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&
>> r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJu
>> oLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&
>> e= >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
> =DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPF
> S2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG
> _YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
> ion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
> EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLy
> qjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&e=
>
From: Jim Homme
Date: Mon, Aug 06 2018 2:09PM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Dawn,
I want to get to the bottom of this. We use NVDA mostly in Firefox. I want to look at some code that produces these things. Does anyone know of samples to view?
Thanks.
Jim
==========
Jim Homme
Product Manager
Digital Accessibility
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
People with disabilities, access job openings at https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 1:38 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA Grid Discussion
This becoming quite an issue with many of the Applications we use. Is this a case where JAWS just isn't handling the ARIA grid correctly, or is it Firefox or for that matter any Browser?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan C. Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 6:59 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA Grid Discussion
Makes sense, vut I was not able to get that to work when i tried three months ago.
Best wishes,
Jonathan Cohn
> On Aug 4, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> What about placing a div element around both tables, giving it a role
> of table, then use role="presentation" on the table elements.
> <div role="table">
> <table role=="presentation">
> <tr>
> <th>heading</th>
> </tr>
> ...
> </table>
> ...
> </div>
> Not sure if this works but technically the element with role="table
> now owns all the tr elements of the other two tables, so to a
> compliant assistive technology those look like a single table.
> I'd give it a 40/60 chance of working, but it would be an interesting
> experiment.
> That is, if I am understanding the problem correctly.
>
>
>> On 8/3/18, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
>>
>> We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but
>> hidden underneath the 1 column table
>>
>> I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big
>> gets very unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have
>> to scan back to the first column to remember what they are looking at.
>>
>> In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or
>> separate window that can be brought up with all the details.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Jonathan Cohn
>> .
>>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up
>>> as a topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>>>
>>> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible.
>>> Specifically, to a screen reader it looks like we have a one row
>>> table followed by the rest of the table in a separate table. I want
>>> to understand what the issues are from a developer perspective. In
>>> otherwords, if the developer says something like "We are using this
>>> grid because it is responsive and we don't want to turn it into a
>>> single HTML table because it will break what we want it to do," how
>>> do I respond and show them they can have their cake and eat it too?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> Jim Homme
>>> Product Manager
>>> Digital Accessibility
>>> Bender Consulting Services
>>> 412-787-8567
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>> lt.com_our-2520services_hightest-2Daccessible-2Dtechnology-2Dsolutio
>>> ns&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqx
>>> GediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLye
>>> IqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=6viYyu9xfsyXFBSmCXHK4NdFVSzoRImOBgOzy7_Pf2g&e=
>>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>> lt.com_careers_job-2Dopenings&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7
>>> qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cju
>>> h6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=j9TTn3gr6hijXMDhx0aEbFPG0
>>> AOCuxsMr1h7Huzk664&e=
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_
>>> &d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGe
>>> diPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIq
>>> kuxFxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>>> List archives at
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discu
>>> ssion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn
>>> E&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_
>>> jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0
>>> ZKo&e= >>
>> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&
>> d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGedi
>> PFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkux
>> FxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>> List archives at
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discus
>> sion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&
>> r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJu
>> oLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&
>> e= >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
> =DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPF
> S2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG
> _YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
> ion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
> EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLy
> qjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&e=
>
From: Mohith BP
Date: Tue, Aug 07 2018 12:23AM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | Next message →
Below examples from ARIA Authoring practice 1.1 can be referred.
Latest NVDA on Firefox 52.9.0
Supports for ARIA Grid.
NVDA does detect the ARIA role table however row navigation (Ctrl +
Alt + Down-arrow) does not work as expected.
JAWS 16 has no supports ARIA Grid structure on both IE 11 and FF.
Please refer the examples below:
ARIA Grid:
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/grid/dataGrids.html
ARIA Table:
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/table/table.html
Note: I have not tested on Firefox 56 or greater.
Thanks & Regards,
Mohith B. P.
On 8/7/18, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Dawn,
> I want to get to the bottom of this. We use NVDA mostly in Firefox. I want
> to look at some code that produces these things. Does anyone know of samples
> to view?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> ==========
> Jim Homme
> Product Manager
> Digital Accessibility
> Bender Consulting Services
> 412-787-8567
> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
> People with disabilities, access job openings at
> https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Don
> Mauck
> Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 1:38 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA Grid Discussion
>
> This becoming quite an issue with many of the Applications we use. Is this a
> case where JAWS just isn't handling the ARIA grid correctly, or is it
> Firefox or for that matter any Browser?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan C. Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 6:59 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA Grid Discussion
>
> Makes sense, vut I was not able to get that to work when i tried three
> months ago.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>> On Aug 4, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> What about placing a div element around both tables, giving it a role
>> of table, then use role="presentation" on the table elements.
>> <div role="table">
>> <table role=="presentation">
>> <tr>
>> <th>heading</th>
>> </tr>
>> ...
>> </table>
>> ...
>> </div>
>> Not sure if this works but technically the element with role="table
>> now owns all the tr elements of the other two tables, so to a
>> compliant assistive technology those look like a single table.
>> I'd give it a 40/60 chance of working, but it would be an interesting
>> experiment.
>> That is, if I am understanding the problem correctly.
>>
>>
>>> On 8/3/18, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
>>>
>>> We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but
>>> hidden underneath the 1 column table
>>>
>>> I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big
>>> gets very unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have
>>> to scan back to the first column to remember what they are looking at.
>>>
>>> In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or
>>> separate window that can be brought up with all the details.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>> .
>>>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up
>>>> as a topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>>>>
>>>> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible.
>>>> Specifically, to a screen reader it looks like we have a one row
>>>> table followed by the rest of the table in a separate table. I want
>>>> to understand what the issues are from a developer perspective. In
>>>> otherwords, if the developer says something like "We are using this
>>>> grid because it is responsive and we don't want to turn it into a
>>>> single HTML table because it will break what we want it to do," how
>>>> do I respond and show them they can have their cake and eat it too?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> Jim Homme
>>>> Product Manager
>>>> Digital Accessibility
>>>> Bender Consulting Services
>>>> 412-787-8567
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>>> lt.com_our-2520services_hightest-2Daccessible-2Dtechnology-2Dsolutio
>>>> ns&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqx
>>>> GediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLye
>>>> IqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=6viYyu9xfsyXFBSmCXHK4NdFVSzoRImOBgOzy7_Pf2g&e=
>>>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>>> lt.com_careers_job-2Dopenings&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7
>>>> qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cju
>>>> h6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=j9TTn3gr6hijXMDhx0aEbFPG0
>>>> AOCuxsMr1h7Huzk664&e=
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_
>>>> &d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGe
>>>> diPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIq
>>>> kuxFxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>>>> List archives at
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discu
>>>> ssion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn
>>>> E&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_
>>>> jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0
>>>> ZKo&e= >>>
>>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&
>>> d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGedi
>>> PFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkux
>>> FxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>>> List archives at
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discus
>>> sion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&
>>> r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJu
>>> oLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&
>>> e= >>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
>> =DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPF
>> S2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG
>> _YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>> List archives at
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
>> ion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
>> EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLy
>> qjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&e=
>> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&e=
> > > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Wed, Aug 08 2018 7:50AM
Subject: Re: ARIA Grid Discussion
← Previous message | No next message
Jim, if I'm understanding this correctly, all it is is a one-row table
containing the headings, followed by another table containing the
data. If it's coded like this, devs can get the data to scroll while
the headings remain static above. I guess it's what the <thead> and
<tbody> tags were supposed to be for, but the desired behaviours never
really got implemented.
Birkir's suggestion works in Chrome with JAWS 2018, but NVDA doesn't
like it. I stopped using Firefox when it got flaky with JAWS, so I've
no idea how it would behave in that browser.
I guess Jonathan's hack is the only sure-fire way to make it work with
most screenreader/browser combos.
On 07/08/2018, Mohith BP < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Below examples from ARIA Authoring practice 1.1 can be referred.
> Latest NVDA on Firefox 52.9.0
> Supports for ARIA Grid.
> NVDA does detect the ARIA role table however row navigation (Ctrl +
> Alt + Down-arrow) does not work as expected.
> JAWS 16 has no supports ARIA Grid structure on both IE 11 and FF.
> Please refer the examples below:
> ARIA Grid:
> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/grid/dataGrids.html
>
> ARIA Table:
> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/table/table.html
>
> Note: I have not tested on Firefox 56 or greater.
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Mohith B. P.
>
> On 8/7/18, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi Dawn,
>> I want to get to the bottom of this. We use NVDA mostly in Firefox. I
>> want
>> to look at some code that produces these things. Does anyone know of
>> samples
>> to view?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> Jim Homme
>> Product Manager
>> Digital Accessibility
>> Bender Consulting Services
>> 412-787-8567
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>> https://www.benderconsult.com/careers/job-openings
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> Don
>> Mauck
>> Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 1:38 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA Grid Discussion
>>
>> This becoming quite an issue with many of the Applications we use. Is this
>> a
>> case where JAWS just isn't handling the ARIA grid correctly, or is it
>> Firefox or for that matter any Browser?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jonathan C. Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2018 6:59 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ARIA Grid Discussion
>>
>> Makes sense, vut I was not able to get that to work when i tried three
>> months ago.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Jonathan Cohn
>>
>>> On Aug 4, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>
>>> What about placing a div element around both tables, giving it a role
>>> of table, then use role="presentation" on the table elements.
>>> <div role="table">
>>> <table role=="presentation">
>>> <tr>
>>> <th>heading</th>
>>> </tr>
>>> ...
>>> </table>
>>> ...
>>> </div>
>>> Not sure if this works but technically the element with role="table
>>> now owns all the tr elements of the other two tables, so to a
>>> compliant assistive technology those look like a single table.
>>> I'd give it a 40/60 chance of working, but it would be an interesting
>>> experiment.
>>> That is, if I am understanding the problem correctly.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 8/3/18, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>>> Ah, the wonderful floating table issues.
>>>>
>>>> We hide the 1column table and then have it in the main table but
>>>> hidden underneath the 1 column table
>>>>
>>>> I hope that makes sense. Though generally a table that is that big
>>>> gets very unwieldy for non screen reader users where they still have
>>>> to scan back to the first column to remember what they are looking at.
>>>>
>>>> In a lot of cases, one can have fewer columns and then a dialog or
>>>> separate window that can be brought up with all the details.
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>>> .
>>>>> On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:20 PM, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> Just when you think you don't need to see a discussion, it comes up
>>>>> as a topic in testing after it has been talked about on list.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm looking for info about making ARIA grids accessible.
>>>>> Specifically, to a screen reader it looks like we have a one row
>>>>> table followed by the rest of the table in a separate table. I want
>>>>> to understand what the issues are from a developer perspective. In
>>>>> otherwords, if the developer says something like "We are using this
>>>>> grid because it is responsive and we don't want to turn it into a
>>>>> single HTML table because it will break what we want it to do," how
>>>>> do I respond and show them they can have their cake and eat it too?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ==========
>>>>> Jim Homme
>>>>> Product Manager
>>>>> Digital Accessibility
>>>>> Bender Consulting Services
>>>>> 412-787-8567
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>>>> lt.com_our-2520services_hightest-2Daccessible-2Dtechnology-2Dsolutio
>>>>> ns&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqx
>>>>> GediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLye
>>>>> IqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=6viYyu9xfsyXFBSmCXHK4NdFVSzoRImOBgOzy7_Pf2g&e=
>>>>> People with disabilities, access job openings at
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.benderconsu
>>>>> lt.com_careers_job-2Dopenings&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7
>>>>> qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cju
>>>>> h6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=j9TTn3gr6hijXMDhx0aEbFPG0
>>>>> AOCuxsMr1h7Huzk664&e=
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_
>>>>> &d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGe
>>>>> diPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIq
>>>>> kuxFxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>>>>> List archives at
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discu
>>>>> ssion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_Jn
>>>>> E&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_
>>>>> jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0
>>>>> ZKo&e= >>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&
>>>> d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGedi
>>>> PFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkux
>>>> FxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>>>> List archives at
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discus
>>>> sion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&
>>>> r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJu
>>>> oLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&
>>>> e= >>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>>> >>> >>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d
>>> =DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPF
>>> S2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG
>>> _YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>>> List archives at
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discuss
>>> ion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=
>>> EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLy
>>> qjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&e=
>>> >> >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=4ZdIBGZ2mgbZynYn9CYLhihY69mUkWdq3VG2CV7TlHw&e=
>> List archives at
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=EQ0xAgqxGediPFS2iJyMwtaJACO0PE04qO0-xFG1duE&m=cjuh6cWzOS6jn11cb_jJuoLyqjlLyeIqkuxFxG_YqE8&s=BW6iDLlvuR06vwZVtV91j4W2X5j8MvFWn7ehEKC0ZKo&e=
>> >> >> >> at
>> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >