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From: Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 6:07AM
Subject: ISO: Other developers
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Any other developers on here i can ask a question to privately?

Please e-mail me at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Colleen Gratzer
Creative Director :: Visual Brand Expert :: Accessibility Specialist
Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com

From: Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 10:12AM
Subject: Re: Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi, everyone. I was originally going to ask this privately, so that's
why I had asked to contact other developers.

I've been formally trained in InDesign and PDF accessibility practices
(thank you, Bevi Chagnon of PubCom) but not formally with websites.
However, I have learned quite a bit of that myself and have built
several accessible websites (design and development, even so far as to
include special custom fields for screen reader text that the client can
fill out). I paid someone to test them all with a screen reader. Knock
on wood. All has been well so far.

Yesterday, an attorney contacted me (he was referred by a colleague who
knows I've done accessible sites). His client is a chain restaurant
being sued by a screen reader user who cannot access their site
properly. He asked me about fixing it. There's a lot I could do to help
BUT i don't know every single WCAG or ADA rule, and I know some are
ambiguous or not good for usability.

So, I'm curious about a few things:

1. Would the above situation be one that you would even consider getting
involved in if it were you?

2. If you are a developer building accessible sites, do you follow every
single WCAG or ADA rule? What steps to you take to "certify" to the
client, "hey, this site is now accessible."

3. Do you have any special accessibility-specific clauses in your
contracts that protect you in case of a legal issue? I do have one that
says if the work needs to be accessible, they need to convey that and,
if they decide against doing that work, i have no responsibility for
that. I also have a limitation of liability clause, among others that
are not accessibility-specific. I don't know what more to do to protect
my business in this way when it comes to accessible sites. (I've had it
reviewed by an attorney but thinking i need to seek advice from an
attorney well versed in accessibility laws.

Phew. That was a lot! If you made it this far, LOL, thanks for reading
all this!


Colleen Gratzer
Creative Director :: Visual Brand Expert :: Accessibility Specialist
Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com

GET IN TOUCH: Please use this email instead: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Henry, Michael (IntelliDyne)
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 10:22AM
Subject: Re: Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Colleen,


Yeah, that's a tough situation. I'm still learning this stuff myself, but will attempt an answer of sorts.

#1: Personally, I wouldn't take on the assignment, unless I had a very specific and exhaustive list of violations or non-compliant elements on the site that I could individually address, then call the job done. But then, as I mentioned, I'm still learning this stuff. It makes me uneasy precisely because I don't know all the rules yet. I wonder if the lawsuit spells out specific items?
If you did take it on, I would include the cost of a certified tester in your bid, like the one you mentioned. (The only such certification I know of is the DHS Trusted Tester. If you can pass that person's test, you're golden). It might be pricey, but totally worth it if the client is willing to pay for it. My guess is, if they're getting sued, they are.

#2: Another thing occurs to me: 508 Compliance is the law for outward facing government sites, but I have no idea what obligation private commercial sites have to meet those standards. There's probably some wiggle room there for the restaurant, but that's for their lawyers to determine. I seem to recall that Target (?) got sued, but not sure the outcome of that.
Is there a requirement that X, Y, and Z items be met, or is this a case of the client making a concerted, earnest effort to meet best practices? If the latter, I assume any Accessibility contractor would have less vulnerability... That's just speculation, though.

#3: I work for a government contractor. Since the bulk of our work is for government sites, I'm certain there's a requirement that they be Compliant. I think everybody (aside from the experts) is still figuring out what that means, however. Seems like from a legal standpoint, it's still a little gray.

Take care and good luck.

Mike



---
Mike S. Henry
Creative Services Lead
IntelliDyne Contract Employee
Supporting Enterprise Infrastructure (formerly Military Health System Cyberinfrastructure Services - MCiS)
Desk: (703) 882-3962

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 12:12:22 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)

Hi, everyone. I was originally going to ask this privately, so that's
why I had asked to contact other developers.

I've been formally trained in InDesign and PDF accessibility practices
(thank you, Bevi Chagnon of PubCom) but not formally with websites.
However, I have learned quite a bit of that myself and have built
several accessible websites (design and development, even so far as to
include special custom fields for screen reader text that the client can
fill out). I paid someone to test them all with a screen reader. Knock
on wood. All has been well so far.

Yesterday, an attorney contacted me (he was referred by a colleague who
knows I've done accessible sites). His client is a chain restaurant
being sued by a screen reader user who cannot access their site
properly. He asked me about fixing it. There's a lot I could do to help
BUT i don't know every single WCAG or ADA rule, and I know some are
ambiguous or not good for usability.

So, I'm curious about a few things:

1. Would the above situation be one that you would even consider getting
involved in if it were you?

2. If you are a developer building accessible sites, do you follow every
single WCAG or ADA rule? What steps to you take to "certify" to the
client, "hey, this site is now accessible."

3. Do you have any special accessibility-specific clauses in your
contracts that protect you in case of a legal issue? I do have one that
says if the work needs to be accessible, they need to convey that and,
if they decide against doing that work, i have no responsibility for
that. I also have a limitation of liability clause, among others that
are not accessibility-specific. I don't know what more to do to protect
my business in this way when it comes to accessible sites. (I've had it
reviewed by an attorney but thinking i need to seek advice from an
attorney well versed in accessibility laws.

Phew. That was a lot! If you made it this far, LOL, thanks for reading
all this!


Colleen Gratzer
Creative Director :: Visual Brand Expert :: Accessibility Specialist
Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com

GET IN TOUCH: Please use this email instead: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: JP Jamous
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 10:22AM
Subject: Re: Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
← Previous message | Next message →

Colleen,

Definitely, you have to be concerned about the questions you asked. Here is
what I recommend.

1. You need to cover WCAG 2.0 Level AA at least. You have to assess pages
against all level A and AA success criteria as long as they apply.
2. Since you have hired a screen reader user to assess your work, I would
not advise you to do this alone. Typically, it takes a sighted and
non-sighted individuals to go through the process. You have the automated
evaluation and the manual evaluation that goes along with it.

If you are interested in learning more, feel free to contact me off the
list. = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .



--------------------
JP Jamous
Senior Digital Accessibility Engineer
E-Mail Me |Join My LinkedIn Network
--------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 11:12 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)

Hi, everyone. I was originally going to ask this privately, so that's why I
had asked to contact other developers.

I've been formally trained in InDesign and PDF accessibility practices
(thank you, Bevi Chagnon of PubCom) but not formally with websites.
However, I have learned quite a bit of that myself and have built several
accessible websites (design and development, even so far as to include
special custom fields for screen reader text that the client can fill out).
I paid someone to test them all with a screen reader. Knock on wood. All has
been well so far.

Yesterday, an attorney contacted me (he was referred by a colleague who
knows I've done accessible sites). His client is a chain restaurant being
sued by a screen reader user who cannot access their site properly. He asked
me about fixing it. There's a lot I could do to help BUT i don't know every
single WCAG or ADA rule, and I know some are ambiguous or not good for
usability.

So, I'm curious about a few things:

1. Would the above situation be one that you would even consider getting
involved in if it were you?

2. If you are a developer building accessible sites, do you follow every
single WCAG or ADA rule? What steps to you take to "certify" to the client,
"hey, this site is now accessible."

3. Do you have any special accessibility-specific clauses in your contracts
that protect you in case of a legal issue? I do have one that says if the
work needs to be accessible, they need to convey that and, if they decide
against doing that work, i have no responsibility for that. I also have a
limitation of liability clause, among others that are not
accessibility-specific. I don't know what more to do to protect my business
in this way when it comes to accessible sites. (I've had it reviewed by an
attorney but thinking i need to seek advice from an attorney well versed in
accessibility laws.

Phew. That was a lot! If you made it this far, LOL, thanks for reading all
this!


Colleen Gratzer
Creative Director :: Visual Brand Expert :: Accessibility Specialist
Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com

GET IN TOUCH: Please use this email instead: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 10:28AM
Subject: Re: Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
← Previous message | Next message →

The US DOJ recently sent a letter to members of congress indicating:
* Broadly the DOJ sees websites as being covered under the ADA
* Failure of following WCAG 2 A/AA is not necessarily non-conformance under the ADA-- there is no defined web accessibility standard including WCAG 2 under the ADA that is mandated to achieve or determine conformance -- fundamentally the determining factor is access by people with disabilities to the goods, services, and benefits through some method including alternatives.
https://www.adatitleiii.com/2018/10/doj-says-failure-to-comply-with-web-accessibility-guidelines-is-not-necessarily-a-violation-of-the-ada/

Given the above it does leave room in either direction for what is an accessible website is and how you measure it. Following WCAG 2.x, addressing the functional accessibility of core functions, and performing user testing with users that have disabilities are all things I would recommend and something we provide to our customers to increase access and reduce risk.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 12:12 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)

Hi, everyone. I was originally going to ask this privately, so that's
why I had asked to contact other developers.

I've been formally trained in InDesign and PDF accessibility practices
(thank you, Bevi Chagnon of PubCom) but not formally with websites.
However, I have learned quite a bit of that myself and have built
several accessible websites (design and development, even so far as to
include special custom fields for screen reader text that the client can
fill out). I paid someone to test them all with a screen reader. Knock
on wood. All has been well so far.

Yesterday, an attorney contacted me (he was referred by a colleague who
knows I've done accessible sites). His client is a chain restaurant
being sued by a screen reader user who cannot access their site
properly. He asked me about fixing it. There's a lot I could do to help
BUT i don't know every single WCAG or ADA rule, and I know some are
ambiguous or not good for usability.

So, I'm curious about a few things:

1. Would the above situation be one that you would even consider getting
involved in if it were you?

2. If you are a developer building accessible sites, do you follow every
single WCAG or ADA rule? What steps to you take to "certify" to the
client, "hey, this site is now accessible."

3. Do you have any special accessibility-specific clauses in your
contracts that protect you in case of a legal issue? I do have one that
says if the work needs to be accessible, they need to convey that and,
if they decide against doing that work, i have no responsibility for
that. I also have a limitation of liability clause, among others that
are not accessibility-specific. I don't know what more to do to protect
my business in this way when it comes to accessible sites. (I've had it
reviewed by an attorney but thinking i need to seek advice from an
attorney well versed in accessibility laws.

Phew. That was a lot! If you made it this far, LOL, thanks for reading
all this!


Colleen Gratzer
Creative Director :: Visual Brand Expert :: Accessibility Specialist
Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com

GET IN TOUCH: Please use this email instead: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 10:41AM
Subject: Re: Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi, JP.

Right. I expected WCAG AA, and I know about 90% to 95% of the WCAG
guidelines (some such as audio/video-related ones I have no experience
with as of yet).

My screen reader expert is actually a sighted person who can also test
sites a screen reader.

colleen


On 10/10/18 12:22 PM, JP Jamous wrote:
> Colleen,
>
> Definitely, you have to be concerned about the questions you asked. Here is
> what I recommend.
>
> 1. You need to cover WCAG 2.0 Level AA at least. You have to assess pages
> against all level A and AA success criteria as long as they apply.
> 2. Since you have hired a screen reader user to assess your work, I would
> not advise you to do this alone. Typically, it takes a sighted and
> non-sighted individuals to go through the process. You have the automated
> evaluation and the manual evaluation that goes along with it.
>
> If you are interested in learning more, feel free to contact me off the
> list. = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
>
>
>
> --------------------
> JP Jamous
> Senior Digital Accessibility Engineer
> E-Mail Me |Join My LinkedIn Network
> --------------------
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 11:12 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
>
> Hi, everyone. I was originally going to ask this privately, so that's why I
> had asked to contact other developers.
>
> I've been formally trained in InDesign and PDF accessibility practices
> (thank you, Bevi Chagnon of PubCom) but not formally with websites.
> However, I have learned quite a bit of that myself and have built several
> accessible websites (design and development, even so far as to include
> special custom fields for screen reader text that the client can fill out).
> I paid someone to test them all with a screen reader. Knock on wood. All has
> been well so far.
>
> Yesterday, an attorney contacted me (he was referred by a colleague who
> knows I've done accessible sites). His client is a chain restaurant being
> sued by a screen reader user who cannot access their site properly. He asked
> me about fixing it. There's a lot I could do to help BUT i don't know every
> single WCAG or ADA rule, and I know some are ambiguous or not good for
> usability.
>
> So, I'm curious about a few things:
>
> 1. Would the above situation be one that you would even consider getting
> involved in if it were you?
>
> 2. If you are a developer building accessible sites, do you follow every
> single WCAG or ADA rule? What steps to you take to "certify" to the client,
> "hey, this site is now accessible."
>
> 3. Do you have any special accessibility-specific clauses in your contracts
> that protect you in case of a legal issue? I do have one that says if the
> work needs to be accessible, they need to convey that and, if they decide
> against doing that work, i have no responsibility for that. I also have a
> limitation of liability clause, among others that are not
> accessibility-specific. I don't know what more to do to protect my business
> in this way when it comes to accessible sites. (I've had it reviewed by an
> attorney but thinking i need to seek advice from an attorney well versed in
> accessibility laws.
>
> Phew. That was a lot! If you made it this far, LOL, thanks for reading all
> this!
>
>
> Colleen Gratzer
> Creative Director :: Visual Brand Expert :: Accessibility Specialist
> Gratzer Graphics LLC
> https://gratzergraphics.com
>
> GET IN TOUCH: Please use this email instead: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > > >
> > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 11:11AM
Subject: Re: Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
← Previous message | Next message →

We have been involved in two legal cases in the US this year. Our experience is that while a small proportion of cases are genuine, the vast majority are not - they are just lawyers taking advantage of the system to make a stack of cash. Neither of our clients' cases were genuine.

As such, once a plaintiff files a case it becomes a game and all the advice we usually give no longer applies. In all probability the plaintiff is looking for a quick pay-out, and their strategy is to throw a ton of crap at you in the hope of a quick out-of-court settlement. Despite what they say, the last thing they want is for you to actually fix everything, so it's not worth even trying unless you can do so very rapidly, by which I mean a couple of weeks. In the longer term, all the usual advice still applies so you don't get sued again.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: 10 October 2018 17:29
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)

The US DOJ recently sent a letter to members of congress indicating:
* Broadly the DOJ sees websites as being covered under the ADA
* Failure of following WCAG 2 A/AA is not necessarily non-conformance under the ADA-- there is no defined web accessibility standard including WCAG 2 under the ADA that is mandated to achieve or determine conformance -- fundamentally the determining factor is access by people with disabilities to the goods, services, and benefits through some method including alternatives.
https://www.adatitleiii.com/2018/10/doj-says-failure-to-comply-with-web-accessibility-guidelines-is-not-necessarily-a-violation-of-the-ada/

Given the above it does leave room in either direction for what is an accessible website is and how you measure it. Following WCAG 2.x, addressing the functional accessibility of core functions, and performing user testing with users that have disabilities are all things I would recommend and something we provide to our customers to increase access and reduce risk.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Colleen Gratzer, Gratzer Graphics LLC
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 12:12 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)

Hi, everyone. I was originally going to ask this privately, so that's why I had asked to contact other developers.

I've been formally trained in InDesign and PDF accessibility practices (thank you, Bevi Chagnon of PubCom) but not formally with websites.
However, I have learned quite a bit of that myself and have built several accessible websites (design and development, even so far as to include special custom fields for screen reader text that the client can fill out). I paid someone to test them all with a screen reader. Knock on wood. All has been well so far.

Yesterday, an attorney contacted me (he was referred by a colleague who knows I've done accessible sites). His client is a chain restaurant being sued by a screen reader user who cannot access their site properly. He asked me about fixing it. There's a lot I could do to help BUT i don't know every single WCAG or ADA rule, and I know some are ambiguous or not good for usability.

So, I'm curious about a few things:

1. Would the above situation be one that you would even consider getting involved in if it were you?

2. If you are a developer building accessible sites, do you follow every single WCAG or ADA rule? What steps to you take to "certify" to the client, "hey, this site is now accessible."

3. Do you have any special accessibility-specific clauses in your contracts that protect you in case of a legal issue? I do have one that says if the work needs to be accessible, they need to convey that and, if they decide against doing that work, i have no responsibility for that. I also have a limitation of liability clause, among others that are not accessibility-specific. I don't know what more to do to protect my business in this way when it comes to accessible sites. (I've had it reviewed by an attorney but thinking i need to seek advice from an attorney well versed in accessibility laws.

Phew. That was a lot! If you made it this far, LOL, thanks for reading all this!


Colleen Gratzer
Creative Director :: Visual Brand Expert :: Accessibility Specialist
Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com

GET IN TOUCH: Please use this email instead: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Peter Shikli
Date: Wed, Oct 10 2018 12:56PM
Subject: Re: Website dev questions (was ISO: Other developers)
← Previous message | No next message

Whereas an attorney would like you to pronounce your professional
opinion whether a website is accessible or not, we feel that opens you
to undue liabilities given how the question remains uncertain after the
current administration's refusal to allow DoJ proceeding in its rule
making on the subject.

Better is to lay out exactly what standard you will test to, WCAG or
Section 508, and what testing methodology you will use.  As Trusted
Testers <https://www.dhs.gov/trusted-tester> following the objective and
detailed test procedures laid out by the Office of Accessible Systems &
Technology, we guarantee adherence to those procedures in our report,
but the client has to then decide if following our recommended
remediations makes them accessible.  That is usually good enough for
federal agencies bound by Section 508, but the private sector's
compliance to Title II or Title III of the ADA remains the Wild West of
hired gunslingers.

Cheers,
Peter Shikli
Access2online
A Division of Bizware Online Applications, Inc.
29030 SW Town Center Loop East
Suite 202-187
Wilsonville, OR 97070
503-570-6831 - = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cell: 949-677-3705
FAX: 503-582-8337
www.access2online.com
Prison inmates helping websites become accessible